**RotK - General impressions and opinions**

[The Only Real Estel]

I thougth that the 'spotlight' eye vision was really cheap. <P>#1- It limits Sauron's ability to 'see all', &-<P>#2- If Sauron's eye does truly pierce 'earth, cloud, shadow, & flesh', then no amount of hiding (& no amount of elven cloak) would have hidden the two hobbits from his eye. <P> A bad choice on PJ's part, I thought.

[Everdawn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I thougth that the 'spotlight' eye vision was really cheap. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah i just remember thinking, "Thats really frightening, that is."

[QN_VICTORIA]

I was a bit disapointed about the fighting sences(Legolas) but, when Eowyen kicked the Naz gulz but. THat more than made up for all the other fighting sences I'm sure that won't come out til the EE....I just can't wait that long..

[The Only Real Estel]

After seeing the movie for the 3rd time a few days ago, I realized that, as much as I like the Grey Havens scene, 2 parts lessened my enjoyment of it slightly.<P>*That PJ wound up having Frodo kiss Sam. Although it doesn't especially disturb me because I can seperate events in a movie from sterotypes in real life, I think it would've been slightly better without it. If he wanted to show a greater bound between Frodo & Sam, then his more, uh...how shall we say 'fierce' (for now ) hug would've worked just fine.<P>*Although I thought for the most part the acting was great at this scene as well, I wish PJ wouldn't have slowed down Frodo's lines. I understand it was to emphasize (bad spelling day, I'm 99% sure that's wrong) what he was saying, but next time you what it, pay close attention to the Havens scene. With Frodo's slow speech it's just wierd. <P> Still a great scene, though .

[mark12_30]

The kiss is pure Tolkien. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Then Frodo kissed Merry and Pippin, and last of all Sam, and went aboard; and the sails were drawn u0, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm glad PJ put it in.

[Cibbwin]

I don't know why, but I turned my head away when Frodo kissed Sam. Not out of repulsion, no, I AM bisexual, but I have no idea why I did.

[The Only Real Estel]

After thinking about 'the kiss' seen & reading the section that <B>mark12_30</B> pointed out, it bothers me less. Although PJ left out some parts of that nature because something that was perfectly fine when Tolkien was writing the books is now looked upon much less innocently (unfortunatly, in some cases). If that made <I>any</I> sense at all .

[Kalimac]

I liked the kiss; it felt very Tolkien, and was brought off very well, very seriously. There was a real parting-forever feeling about the scene.<P>One random note; my brother, who's in Iraq right now, just saw ROTK (*ahem*bootleg*ahem*) and liked it, but the scene that really impressed him was, oddly enough, the one right at the end, where the four hobbits are sitting at the Green Dragon. He said that hit really close to home, and that they did that scene very well - as he put it, no matter how familiar the surroundings that you're in, you still feel as if you have more in common with the three or four other guys who experienced fighting alongside you than with anyone else in the place.

[Linaeve]

I liked ROTK, but I wasn't overly impressed by it. Maybe that was because half way through the movie, I got a horrible headache thanks to the fact that the volume in the theater must have been set at its highest possible volume . . . if that makes any sense. Anyway, I thought it was a bit too . . . I dunno, forced, maybe is the word for it. I can't remember which ones now (I saw it last week), but there are a couple scenes in the movie that you just know you're supposed to cry in. I hated that- it felt much too Hollywood for me. <P>I really didn't like the whole 'Gollum frames Sam' business . . . I liked it better in the books where Gollum is shown to have some goodness still remaining in him, and I didn't like the whole departure scene at the beginning of the movie with Pippin and Merry. That's one of the scenes that I thought was much too contrived. I also wasn't impressed with the Paths of the Dead- it wasn't nearly as frightening as it is in the book. <P>However, I <I>was</I> impressed with the elephants (or oliphaunts, if you're Samwise), and I liked Gimli, even though he seemed a little too comic and contrived too. <P>My favorite scenes, however, were towards the end. I liked the part where the Nazgul says that he can't be killed by any man, and Eowyn rips off her helmet and cries, "But I am no man!". The other scene I liked was at the end, when everyone bowed down to the four hobbits . . . I leaned over to my friend and whispered, "Go short people!" in his ear. I was thrilled because, at 17, I'm only 5 ft tall! <P>All said and done, I still think the first one is the best for its spectacular acting, costumes, and set. Everything went downhill from there <P>(And sorry if I repeated what others have said before me . . . I was lazy and didn't bother reading all four pages before I posted!!! )

[mark12_30]

On the Searchlight theme, this is from the Mount Doom chapter of RotK:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-Dur. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay. and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally. His hand sought the chain around his neck.<P>Sam knelt by him. Faint, almost inaudibly, he heard Frodo whispering: "Help me, Sam! Help me, Sam! Hold my hand! I can't stop it." Sam took his master's hands and laid them together, palm to palm, and kissed them; and then he held them gently between his own. The thought came suddenly to him, "He's spotted us! It's all up, or it soon will be. Now, Sam Gamgee, this is the end of ends."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>At this point Sam again carries Frodo (for the second time.)<P>A couple of things to note: rather than the glaring red eye in the movie, this describes the top of the twoer constantly swathed in shadow til this moment, and then (and only then) does the red light pierce. I always pictured a dull red glimmer from the topmost turret, not a glaring eye strung out at the top. However, Frodo is certainly "stricken" by a glaring red light from the tower at this point, and it knocks him down and renders him quite powerless, and sets him clawing for the Ring.

[Wraith]

ROTK = New favorite movie ever (replacing the tie between FOTR and TTT)<P>I guess I'm not the only one who thought this was a teerjerker(but I didn't slip), I almost cried! Especially when they all kneeled down to the hobbits.<P>The whole thing was AWESOME, even though they left out a lot like the scouring of the shire, Denethor having a palantir, Beregond, houses of healing, the mouth of Sauron, and more.<P>But

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I got a horrible headache thanks to the fact that the volume in the theater must have been set at its highest possible volume . . . if that makes any sense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh, that makes a <B>lot</B> of sense. You weren't watching it at my theater, where you?

[Linaeve]

Well, if you were in New Jersey on the 20th of December at the 6:30 showing, then I very well could have been in your theater! But I think that most places played it really loudly, though my Uncle said he didn't have a problem when he saw it. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive

[Essex]

I remember walking around in a daze for a day or two feeling really sad / lonely / depressed once I'd seen rotk. This was down to the fact that it was over.<P>It was, without doubt, the greatest movie I've ever seen. I've been knocking the other two movies (esp tt) even though they were ALSO my fave films before this, mainly to do with the changes.<P>But even though Jacskon has changed bits of this film, I cannot bring myself to moan too much about them. The film was that good. The film was TOLKIEN. <P>I now understand the differences in reading a book and seeing a film. They cannot be the same. they are different mediums. look how boring harry potter I is because it is exactly the same as the book. The book itself is brilliant.<P>Even the things jackson changed I kind of understand WHY. for example: frodo sending sam away. Jackson wanted frodo to be ALONE in the tunnel with shelob to add tension and atmosphere. He did a little change with sam leaving (for a few minutes!) and then coming back to defeat shelob.<P>Anyway, looking forward to the EE. 10 months to go..........

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But even though Jacskon has changed bits of this film, I cannot bring myself to moan too much about them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I couldn’t agree with you more, Essex. I have seen the film twice. On both occasions I enjoyed it thoroughly and was deeply moved by it, perhaps even more so on my second viewing. For me, the changes/additions/omissions pale into insignificance compared to the moments of great beauty, high tension and emotional power. There are really only two scenes in the film which do not work for me (and I have mentioned these elsewhere), but my misgivings over these are vastly outweighed by my appreciation of the remainder. <P>Maybe I have the wrong impression, but it seems to me that, after an initial flurry of appreciation, this forum seems to have become rather negative towards the film, with the majority of recent posts being critical of it. Like you, Essex, I really cannot bring myself to be too critical, given the impact that the film has had on me.

[mark12_30]

Essex and Saucie, I agree; the film is wonderful, there is little in it that bothers me (mentioned elsewhere), and more to enjoy than any film in my recent history. When I look at my complaints, I have to laugh.<P>What the film has give me is another whole story to love. There are the books, untouched, and still as pervasively wonderful as ever; and now, here is this movie trilogy... also full-of-wonder.<P>While it is a different interpretation of the books than I might have scripted, on the other hand, it has given me a new and fresh enjoyment of the boks as they are. On several counts my overly simplistic view of the books has been challenged and expanded by this film. <P>I still hold to my original, 5 AM review after my first midnight showing: This film rocks. It really, really rocks.<P>Maybe that's why I've seen it five times already. Hmm, I haven't seen it since Saturday... five whole days. Time to go again. <p>[ 11:23 AM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

It's been over two weeks since I've seen the movie. OK, I admit -- I saw it a number of times during the first week.<P>My initial assessment of RotK still stands. It isn't classic Tolkien but it is a wonderful film by Peter Jackson, which pulled me in and held me, eliciting tears in a number of places<P>I purposely waited to post my specific likes and dislikes to see what actually stuck with me over the weeks, rather than giving first impressions. Here are the things I can't get out of my head:<BR> <BR> <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Lighting of the Beacons -- The fantastic aerial scenery and the sensation of that message being sent from Gondor to Rohan just blew me away. Hey, if I can't make a trip to Middle-earth, I'll settle for New Zeeland. <LI>My first glimpse of Minas Tirith on the plain - It was breathtaking. I have to admit my personal Minas Tirith now looks a lot like PJ's!<LI>Sean Astin's portrayal of Sam -- Sam was just plain awesome. If Frodo was my "hero" in Tolkien's book, Sam was my hero in PJ's films. Astin was so good in his portrayal that he made me forget some of the less desirable script alterations and the fact that Sam should have looked a bit more tan, seeing that he was a Harfoot.<LI>The new and improved Frodo! All joking aside, I felt that Wood's Frodo in RotK came a lot closer to what I'd hoped to see than the Frodo of PJ's TTT. He was different than Tolkien's Frodo -- more passive and vulnerable, less mature and more reliant on Sam, but he was still someone I could appreciate in the context of PJ's tale.<LI>Pippin's poignant singing while the Rohan cavalry and Faramir galloped into the mouth of death. I cursed what the Palantir had done to Denethor, even though few others in the audience would have had that missing piece of background information.<LI>98% of what happened on the slopes of Mount Doom and the actual Chambers of Fire ---the scene where Frodo lies on the mountain in Sam's arms and describes the Wheel of Fire, Samwise carrying Frodo, and Frodo's final declaration at the Crack of Doom. <LI>The scene at Grey Havens, especially Frodo's accepting smile as he boards the ship. And unlike some others, I wanted to see that final kiss between Frodo and Sam (but then I come from an ethnic group where a lot of kissing goes on!) <LI> the depiction of Middle-earth in general -- Just as in the other movies, the overall visuals were generally faithful to Tolkien, or at least to those artists we are used to seeing. <LI> those glistening words about grey rain curtains turning to silver glass, white shores and a far green country under a swift sunrise, even if the phrase was put forward in a wholly different context! The words gave me chills. </UL><P>Yes, there were things I still had trouble with. Sam and Frodo's split-up worked cinematically, but I still would have preferred a closer adherence to the book. I just don't think it would have happened in this manner --- anyway, anyhow! <P>Also, seeing a Shire that had not changed after the War.... Yes, there was no way they could have included the Scouring, but the Shire <B> did </B> change and that bothered me, even though many have said how they appreciated the Inn scene which showed the disillusionment of "veterans" returning after a war. <P>Arwen and Elrond at the end....Surely a father would have shown more grief! That Elf had a block of ice instead of a heart...<P>The 2 percent at Mount Doom I had trouble with -- Gollum struggling with an invisible Frodo. Yes, I know it's canon, but it surely did look strange!<P>Sauron the Searchlight -- There had to have been another way to do this than a brilliant light reminiscent of a floodlight in front of a newly opened store.<P>And finally....not really explaining why Frodo left. I've gotten a lot of questions from casual moviegoers who could not understand what was going on, and why a shoulder wound would cause a hobbit to leave all the places and people he loved. There should be some indication of what's going on inside.... <P>Still, if I weigh the ups and I weigh the downs, I am exceedingly glad that PJ made this movie. And I would hope to see it win some recognition from fellow filmakers in April.<p>[ 3:37 PM January 08, 2004: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Meela]

I just saw Rotk for the sixth time. For most films, if you get to the sixth viewing you're usually pretty darn fed up with the film, and find yourself drifting off throughout half of it. Or at least I normally am.<BR>With Rotk though, I'm finding that I enjoy it more each time. I was thoroughly engrossed throughout the whole film.<BR>I found that I also get more involved with each viewing. Emotionally, that is, with the characters. Especially the Hobbits. I have a habit of not usually caring about the Hobbits, but I was crying along with the rest of them at the Grey Havens.<P>I'm still in love with the beacon scene, I laugh more and more at Denethor's bungee jump gone wrong, and I'm getting more and more used to seeing grass on the top of Minas Tirith. I'm also thinking that each time I watch the film, the army of Mordor seems less and less of a threat.<BR>And I'm increasingly moved by Sam.<P>Generally, it's a better film than it was at the start.

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I have a habit of not usually caring about the Hobbits<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is quite a nasty habit to have. Hope you can break it.

[The Great Shadowfax]

oh man..its been too long since i've seen ROTK and i need to go back soon....<BR> well anyways, i did find that the Paths of the Dead wasnt as creepy as i had hoped, and the ghost king dude kind of reminded me of Captain Barbosa in PotC (in the moonlight ofcourse). and when aragorn summoned them to fullfill they're oath it seemed more like he was saying, "c'mon, you guys...let's go...". but whatever.<BR> now being the horse fanatic that i am, i must say that my favorite epich shot in the whole movie was by far the scene of the rohirrim riding to the aid of gondor ...*eyes twinkle in blissful remembrence*<BR> and i love the part where frodo tells sam to "Go home"...so sad <BR> and i could probably say a whole bunch of other scenes but i'm sure other people have already said them<BR>SEE YOU ON THE GREAT PLAINS IN THE SKY<BR>~Luindringiel~<BR>~Pennsarnien~

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>i did find that the Paths of the Dead wasnt as creepy as i had hoped, and the ghost king dude kind of reminded me of Captain Barbosa in PotC (in the moonlight ofcourse). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ditto. They weren't <I>real</I> creepy, but I guess they have to keep it at PG-13 (plus I'm not easily creeped). And I also thought the captain/leader/king guy looked like a moonlighted Barbosa. Wierd.

[Evisse the Blue]

Well - finally! I can add my two cents here. I actually saw it about 5 days ago, and I saw it twice so far, so I can say with a fair degree of certainty that it not only is the best of the trilogy, but one of the best movies I have ever seen, and will see from now on.<P>Even if I wasn't a fan, even if I hadn't read the books, heck, even if I hadn't seen the first two films, I still would have enjoyed ROTK: esthetically speaking, it's nearly flawless! It is a wonderful experience, visually, emotionally and intellectually. Wow, so many big words. Let me explain why I said 'nearly' flawless: I am a fierce enemy of what is generally known as 'cheese': and the movie had its share of cheese. (the Aragorn - Arwen kiss springs to mind). But, what can you do, this is hollywood, heh, and which hollywood movie doesn't do cheese?? Granted, X Files the Movie was absolutely cheeseless and 100% intellectually stimulating, but don't worry, I'm not trying to prove a point here. <P>Ok, so I loved the movie not necessarily as a Tolkien fan, but as a regular person who appreciates beauty. Even if in my former capacity I was devastated by the changes in Denethor's character, by the distorsion of the Gollum-Sam-Frodo relationship, by the omission of very important scenes and lines - I could still appreciate how even those things fit in to create a memorable movie. All in all, it was an amazing visual journey.<P>As far as movies go, ROTK is as good as it gets. If you are looking for pure perfection, read the books.<P>My favourite scene is not from the books: it is the scene with Pippin singing, Denethor gulping his food and Faramir and his men riding to Osgiliath. I'd like to see any movie top that scene, I'd like to see any even try! Another scene which really made me scream out loud 'perfection!' was the Frodo at Mt Doom scene, when he claims the Ring. Lots have discussed it before, so I won't insist. Also,the Eowyn vs the Witchking confrontation was very well done, keeping true to the book, though without some of the original dialogue. I wish Merry's part was more significant, though.<BR>The Grey Havens scene was moving and well-acted. The entire movie was well-acted, but I have to mention Aragorn let me down just a little, but maybe because I had too high expectations. The ending I loved - although when reading the books I was faintly dissapointed by the 'well, I'm back' unspectacular ending - in the movie it played very sweet and appropriate. <P>Despite the praises, I have to mention a scene which I absolutely hate: Gandalf hitting Pippin with the staff after he pledges allegiance to Denethor. Whatever happened to 'generous deed must not be checked by cold council'?? Well, I guess it's too much to ask... <BR>Oh, and not that I hate it or anything, but Shelob gave me the creeps! I generally laugh at horror movies but this precious CGI character had me shivering with terror and disgust from head to toe. I even had a nightmare about it, for Pete (Jackson's! )sake. <P>The score was also beautiful. 'Into the West' is a really haunting song, although my favourite is still 'May it be'. <P>Wheew, ok. I'm glad I got this off my chest. If you don't have the patience to read all through this, it can be summed up thus: <B>10+</B> and congratulations to the cast and crew, especially PJ. They are a talented bunch!<p>[ 10:58 AM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Evisse the Blue ]

[Essex]

Just some replies to some great comments I’ve just read on this thread….<P>SaucepanMan<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe I have the wrong impression, but it seems to me that, after an initial flurry of appreciation, this forum seems to have become rather negative towards the film, with the majority of recent posts being critical of it. Like you, Essex, I really cannot bring myself to be too critical, given the impact that the film has had on me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I really feel pity towards those who have become critical of this film. I was exactly like this when I first saw Two Towers. I was so gutted I did not like TT when I first saw it. (It took a couple of viewings to like it and the EE is a masterpiece). I spent a lot of time worrying if ROTK could be that good, but thankfully it was (even with the cinema lights on that they couldn’t turn off on my first viewing!). On second viewing it is even better. I really do feel sorry towards those who don’t like the film.<P>Mark12_30<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It has given me a new and fresh enjoyment of the boks as they are. On several counts my overly simplistic view of the books has been challenged and expanded by this film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I’ve loved reading lotr each time I’ve first seen each of the films over the past couple of years. I can’t believe it sometimes when I say "THAT would never happen in the book!" and then read the book, and lo and behold it IS there (in one format or another). For example, Gandalf hitting Denethor. I read that section the other day, and Gandalf DOES strike Denethor up near the Pyre, to get through the door and to remove a sword from Denethor’s hand. OK not as much as in the film, but it’s still there. Also, the warg attack in TT which I didn’t like. There is a battle between some of Theoden’s troops and Warg riders alluded to in TT. Just one sentence, but it’s there.<P>Child of the 7th age<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, there were things I still had trouble with. Sam and Frodo's split-up worked cinematically, but I still would have preferred a closer adherence to the book. I just don't think it would have happened in this manner --- anyway, anyhow! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can see your point. But did Sam really go away? I think he just sat down and cried, went down a couple of steps in a stupor and then FELL the rest of the way. Then he rushed back to catch up. I mean the only real difference is that Frodo hacked through the webs himself, and it was Frodo not Sam confronting Gollum once they had got out of the tunnels.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also, seeing a Shire that had not changed after the War.... Yes, there was no way they could have included the Scouring, but the Shire did change and that bothered me, even though many have said how they appreciated the Inn scene which showed the disillusionment of "veterans" returning after a war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now viewing the movie I personally think they COULD have included the scouring, at least in the EE. I was waiting for a spectacular emotional homecoming, and thought that the scouring WOULD be anti climactic. But viewing the low key entrance the hobbits had to the Shire, it could have worked. Just imagine the scene between Frodo and Saruman. Wow.<P>Evisse<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My favourite scene is not from the books: it is the scene with Pippin singing, Denethor gulping his food and Faramir and his men riding to Osgiliath. I'd like to see any movie top that scene, I'd like to see any even try! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Great point. The part of that scene that made me jump (on both viewings) is where Pippin finishes his song and you see the arrows of the orcs firing towards Farmir’s forces. The sound of the arrows being let loose is terrifying. I was reminded of The Charge of the Light Brigade with this scene. The horse riders riding towards certain death.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also,the Eowyn vs the Witchking confrontation was very well done, keeping true to the book, though without some of the original dialogue. I wish Merry's part was more significant, though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I thought we would have had mention somehow of Galadriel’s (movie) gift to Merry. Ie the sword of Numenor. And also, some of my favourite bits in the book to do with Merry. Ie ‘are you going to bury me’, ‘he should have been borne in honour into the city’ and ‘you should make him a knight of the riddermark’ and so on! There’s still the EE though........<P>Just imagine how good this film will be when the EE version comes out………. How do you better the best film ever made????????? I can’t wait.....

[mark12_30]

Doug, since you bring Saruman back up...<P>I had written a short piece on Saruman, asking PJ to put him in Frodo's path for the RotK EE, which I intended to send to TORn. Could y'all give it a review? Please? <P><A HREF="http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/SarumanFrodo.rtf" TARGET=_blank>Saruman And Frodo</A><P>I'd be grateful...<P>--mark12_30

[Imladris]

That's very good, Mark 12_30! <P>I like the fact that the reason you gave for incorporating the scene with Saruman in the EE was because of Frodo's character developement. It sounds like a much better reason than: "Tolkien had it in there so you had better add it!" I like that you substantiate your statements with the letters of Tolkien, with examples of how the movies changed his character (the Ford and the Ringwraith bit have always disappointed me), and your polite and understanding tone. <P>But I do have a few questions with this sentence:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> This would require that you bring back only six actors, Christopher Lee, Brad Dourif and the four hobbits, and reassemble their costumes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Shouldn't there be a colon after "actors" instead of a comma because you are listing them? Or maybe in parenthesis? Of course, I do have a strange addiction to parenthesis and colons...<P>Those are just my opinions....feel free to disregard them.

[mark12_30]

Correct, Imladris, and thank you. I shall put that on my list of edits. Much oblidged!

[elenquesse]

Inspiring. I can't imagine loving another movie more.

This movie is the most awesome of all three and should be given every movie award there is. I loved Arwens dress when you last see her, it is sooo cool.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I had written a short piece on Saruman, asking PJ to put him in Frodo's path for the RotK EE, which I intended to send to TORn. Could y'all give it a review? Please? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I downloaded and read your piece, Helen, and I must say that you're preaching to the choir here! I do wonder whether that would throw off whatever he had planned for the demise of Saruman in the EE or not...it does seem to be something that could possibly be inserted. Getting six actors together so long after the fact might be troublesome, though. <P>On a less editorial note but more a spin-off effect, I also had a thought:<P>Another possibility, although somewhat weaker and not completely canon, would be thus: Frodo is allowed the show of mercy through tolerance of the ignorant and sometimes boorish nature of certain hobbits of the Shire who have made their boorishness known in an earlier part of the film. I speak of Ted Sandyman, who speaks to Rosie in the Extended FOTR and earns a grumble from Sam. Let’s posit that Sam sees Rosie and gets up to “go get her” as he did in the ROTK theatrical version. Perhaps Sandyman sees this and challenges Sam, telling him that she’s taken—by him. Sandyman offers violence, which Sam begins to return. Enter Frodo between them, who simply gets between the fray and puts himself in the way of whatever damage would be done. He says something to the effect of his words during the Scouring: do not kill hobbits, even if they have become as bad as he (Sandyman) is, even if they really have gone over to the other side and are not doing it out of fear. <P>It would not have the great impact that the Frodo/Saruman exchange has, but it might get across an element of the quality of mercy and understanding that seems to be an undercurrent in the Green Dragon scene to begin with, the idea that, even if no one ever knows what you have suffered and done for them, it doesn’t make them any less deserving of that protection. It would, perhaps, resonate back to the idea (that also is not covered in the movie to my regret, but, oh well!) that finally helps Frodo overcome the despair that hits him as he watches the Morgul Host departing towards the West. Even if no one ever knows or lives to see it, it must be done, for it is the right thing to do. <P>This also resonates with the “hardness” that becomes part of Sam’s being at the approach to Mount Doom. Sam may feel some resentment or amazement at not being given respect for what he has done, or may feel that he did not suffer the Quest to Mt. Doom just so he could be confronted by an idiot in the Green Dragon, and this may cause him to wish to show him “where he’s been,” a sort of alienation effect that manifests through an aggressive impulse. This effect might be seen even more clearly in Merry and Pippin, who are seasoned warriors by this time. Pippin in particular would be prone to a retaliatory outburst in such a situation (viz. his threat when the man calls Frodo a “cock-a-whoop”). This aggressive stance on the part of the three hobbits could be contrasted to Frodo’s impulse to let it be or simply stand in the way of the offered violence in order to stop it, reminding Sam of the lesson of Gollum, the fact that, even if the focus was Frodo’s becoming like Gollum, in the end, he fulfilled a destiny beyond mere justice and his comeuppance was dealt by the higher power. <P>I’m not sure exactly how to explain the effect, but it is possible that such a short scene could have been included in the Green Dragon to contrast Frodo to the others. I kind of doubt it, though, as the dynamic that runs through that scene is the out of place nature of all four hobbits. Sam is the only one who seems to jump right back into Shire life as if he never left. Even Merry and Pippin seem rarified by the experience and set apart from the blind denizens of the Green Dragon. It does not single Frodo out, but perhaps an additional encounter here would set him apart. One could even escalate it by having Merry and Pippin drawing sword to challenge the interloper. <P>As a matter of fact, any sort of conflict done in this manner to show the difference in how Sam, Merry and Pippin would handle it, contrasted with Frodo's response, would get some of this point across. <P>I hope my long-windedness hasn’t driven everyone away from the thread! Sorry if this wasn't exactly a review! <P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[Lalaith]

These ideas are interesting, and might redress a complaint I have heard from many, many non-Tolkienites, both friends and film reviewers, that while the film is excellent as a whole, it is let down by the post-Mount Doom part is dull and drags on. <BR>Now, this is not *my* complaint personally, (although I did find the Grey Havens a mite drawn-out and soppy)but this could be because I had the book in my mind the whole time. And the end chapters do not feel in the least superfluous in the book. <BR>I initially thought PJ's reason for leaving out the Scouring was valid, but maybe his stripping-down of the final chapters is the reason so many people feel bored by them - to have the homecoming resulting in nothing but a few glances in the pub, wooing of Rosie and Frodo clutching his chest, feels a little flat. <BR>I think these ideas you've come up with would improve this feeling of 'flatness'.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe I have the wrong impression, but it seems to me that, after an initial flurry of appreciation, this forum seems to have become rather negative towards the film, with the majority of recent posts being critical of it. Like you, Essex, I really cannot bring myself to be too critical, given the impact that the film has had on me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Personally, I'd rather say a few things that bugged me, or could'v been done better without harping on them to much, then simply echo in agreement about how things where so cool, etc. It doesnt' ruin my enjoment of the movie, so it doesn't bother me :/ .

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Maybe I have the wrong impression, but it seems to me that, after an initial flurry of appreciation, this forum seems to have become rather negative towards the film, with the majority of recent posts being critical of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just to be clear, I was not saying there that people should not be expressing their negative opinions about the film. Of course they should be, if that's how they feel. Indeed, I have expressed my own misgivings about it. But, from a personal point of view, I just find it hard to be too exacting in my criticism in light of the incredible impression that this film has made on me.<P>And in any event, the general tone of the forum seems now to have become more positive. Perhaps it is in the nature of these things that the overall feeling will sway one way and then the other.

[Neferchoirwen]

I always thought that I can never bear to see the ending, but now, I think that I can bear seeing it again! ---I mean in a good way...I had to stop my daily reading regiment because of the fimls' impact on my brain! It's the movie of all movies! Tolkien at its purest, so far.<P>Honestly, I was satisfied by Jackson. Truly, from one Tolkien fan to another, I honor him the way I honor someone who hails from my hometown...<P>The spotlight thing was okay for me. I mean, how would they know that they were seen? The red light definitely made the effect made that Sauron sees them.<P>Denethor's death was given a very Shakespearean edge, for the lack of a better adjective. I really didn't like the way he died---or at least the way he burned in the books. Falling off gave him the dignity that only he can attempt to give himself. Gravefully set against the "backdrop" of the war, the thought that no one among the soldiers fighting knew that their Steward dying and previously gone mad is very dramatic.<P>There is something about the smiles of the characters. Gandalf smiles at almost anything...<P>Galadriel's smile is one of the most endearing that shined off of the other's faces. It just shows how much love she has for Frodo, and how actually happy she is.<P>We first met Elrond at the beggining, where he just gives a polite smile to Frodo, which is before he heals him. Seeing him smile at the end of the films is like a huge sigh of relief: the enemy has been defeated, and they can now pass on to Valinor.<P>Frodo almost never smiles. At least as happily as he did as he goes on board the ship. Before he leaves the shire, he is stressed by the same stress he shares with his uncle: the Sackville-Bagginses. Plus the sudden departure of Bilbo. As the Ring takes its toll, he grows weary. Seeing him smile like that on the way to Valinor was heartwarming, and oh so Hobbit-like.<P>I've no problems about the ommission of the Scouring of the Shire. Honestly, it would have never worked. However, the same still happened: as the four gallant halflings return to being Hobbits once again, all in Gondorean garb, they aren't given a welcome they truly deserve. It just made the Hobbit sensibility more defined. <P>THAT and one other thing: After a glorious war at the Pellenor and at the Moria gate, scene after scene of Hobbits fighting each other wouldn't work: it'll look too cute, and it would't be appreciated. Anti-climactic.<P>The Gollum-Sam lembas confrontation was very funny! <P>I didn't like it that Sam's shadow wasn't left to be percieved as a huge person. I liked it the way it was, but nevertheless, it underlines Sam's bravery.<P>Never thought of Imrahil until now. I did expect to see him the film, but it didn't bother me.<P>The obviously cropped Eowyn-Faramir ship is expected to show up in the Extended Edition, as well as Faramir's proclamation of princedom in Ithilien...I hope.<P>The ships were supposed to be ships, right? THey looked more like yachts to me...Although it would fit all passengers who also happened to be in the scene.<P>Gondor was lovely! Thinking of doing a cross-stitch project...good luck to me. And yet it's a shame that the White Tree wasn't seen replaced...didn't notice it at the aerial view. Except for something I notice from the first movie. The Gondor that Gandalf went to for research and fact finding seemed cramped, unless the level alloted for scholars is relatively narrow.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> My friends...you bow to no one!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I practically bawled at that one.<P>Gimli's remarks about the dead were awesome. I just thought that his Irish interjections were not needed. "laddie" huh?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That only counts as one!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The only amount of comic relief that the dear dwarf delivered is perfect. Plus, Legolas counting out loud...it's just enough.

[Everdawn]

Ok, Now that ive seen ROTK 4 times, i LOVE it! The first time i saw it was got so upset becuse Imrahil wasnt in it.<P>But now that ive gotten myself past that point, i just dont care anymore, and all i want is to enjoy what Peter Jackson and his wonderful crew gave us to watch. <P>I think we should be saying thankyou for giving us a visual adaptation and inspiring millions more people to read the books than being so critical, after all, we are lucky that someone made LOTR into a movie, arent we?

[Feared Half-Elf]

I only saw Rotk last night, and words cannot describe how cool I thought it was! Me and my friend good plenty of strange look as we were the only ones who dressed up. we turned up as random elves, with plastic bows and everything.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That still only counts as one! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Being a Legolas fan, I found his stunt really cool! Gimli's line made everybody in the cinema burst out laughing, me included.<P>I also like Gimli's line before they go to the balck gate.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Certain death, tiny chance of success. What are we waiting for? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can't remember if that's the proper line.<P>Another thing i thought was good was the gollum 'sneaking' episode!<P>The computer graphics were spectacular, and Shelob was much better than I thought she would be.<P>However, there are some things I felt weren't as good.<P>As several people have said, I was disappointed that the love between Faramir and Eowyn wasn't made more obvious. Not all actors are like Ian Mckellen, people who can convey everything that he is thinking in a frown. PJ needed to elongate the Faramir/Eowyn thing to make it impossible to overlook.<BR>I was disappointed too that the white tree wasn't replaced.<BR>Is it just me, or weren't the Dunadain supposed to catch up with Aragorn and then accompany him, Legolas and Gimli through the Paths of the Dead?

[Rouroni]

Ah, yes. This was the undeniable best of the trilogy. However, I did miss the Scouring and the Houses of Healing, (which will be in the EE, I am absolutaly certain.). <BR>The end was very well done, despite a lack of hobbit scouring. I loved the kiss Frodo gave to Sam at the Havens, it was so personal and loving, especially because Frodo did not kiss Merry or Pippin.<P>Some people complain that they thought the kiss out of taste, but no one complained in Fellowship when Aragorn kissed Boromir as he was dying.<P>I didnt like that Frodo pushed Gullum into Orodruin. It was supposed to be an accident, a twist of fate, much like the many times Gullum could have been killed, and hadn't.<BR>All in all, an excellent movie, and i plan on seeing it next weekend for the ninth time.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I was disappointed too that the white tree wasn't replaced. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The White Tree was in bloom at Aragorn's coronation.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I didnt like that Frodo pushed Gullum into Orodruin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He didn't. They both fell off the edge while fighting for the Ring.

[Feared Half-Elf]

I know that the White Tree was in bloom at the coronation, but most people wouldn't see that.

I did NOT like the movie adaptation that Peter Jackson made.<BR>I never doubted that The ROTK movie was going to be a great and intriguing story for those who had never read the books. It is an impressive movie production for those in the film industry. This trilogy is an achievement in the history of movie making that has pushed the enveloped in the CG area. It is a great entertainment especially for the videogame generation.<BR>There was never any doubt in my mind that with the amount of money allocated to this project, the use of barely known actors, the directing by a low paying B-Movie director and the substantial savings of making them in New Zealand, these films were not going to be successful at the Box Office.<BR>I expected it to be a great spectacle no matter how many senseless changes and omissions for the sake of time or due to the inexperience of Peter Jackson and arrogance of the screenwriters of what "work or does not work", and that "action is better than characterization".<BR>Peter Jackson could not handle the visualization of the whole storyline and action. After so much unnecessary filming and resources available to the project, I did not expect it to be so incomplete, inconsistent, incoherent and wrong. The extended version of this movie will show unimportant sequences, more interaction of all the characters that were glossed over in the previous 2 films, improvements in the timeline, editing, music and details that will please the fans and help to understand Jackson's story better; However, unless the story is totally different, the extended edition will NOT correct the damage done to Frodo, Gandalf, Gimli, Denethor, Elrond, Saruman, Théoden, Eomer, Faramir, Gondor, Mordor, Sauron, The Pelennor Fields, The Ride of the Rohirrim, Dernhelm, and Beregorn. The significance of the opposing strategies of Gandalf and Sauron will not be saved. The significance of Aragorn and his role in the War and return as a King will not be corrected.<BR>After seeing the Two Towers, I knew that Peter Jackson could not catch up with the story unless he made a 4 or 5-hour movie or leave out great cinematic and dramatic opportunities from the original story. <BR>He did not have enough time for post-production either. This is reflected in the fact that: <BR>1) He could not handle the correct geography and the very specific description around Minas Tirith including The Pelennor Fields, the situation and lower altitude of Osgiliath on the Anduin River. He failed in the portrayal of the structures described by Tolkien: a wall surrounding the Pelennor Field, farms, barns, homesteads, the Causeway Forts. All these details had a function in the story which not only made it credible but also added to the drama and complexity to "The Battle of our Times". For example, it made no sense that Faramir and anyone in his company would go blindly to fight openly to nearby Osgiliath without the protection of a fort, a wall, a trench, a hill or Gandalf to fend off from the Nazgul! It diminished Faramir from a wise, brave, sensitive and respected leader to a crybaby who would lead his fellow Gondorians to their certain death because he wanted the approval of his mad father. Military leaders don't act like that and followers are not as stupid to follow them either. <BR>2) There was no planned defense or war strategy by either side at all. After the lighting of the beacons no army showed up except for the Rohirrim. No Mordor army was sent out to block the roads to prevent their arrival. At the end the significance of their effort was diminished after Peter Jackson decided that battle had to be won by ghosts. We ended up with a very simplistic battle of CG enemy armies, allied CG horses and ghost, and a deficient filmable real human armies; It was a battle without real drama and few moments of identifiable feelings opposite to what Tolkien described in his tale.<BR>3) Peter Jackson could not realize on the screen the weather of Mordor. He was not able to include its dramatic effect on the mood of the characters and of people of Minas Tirith and the urgency of the ride of the Rohirrim. He was not able to include the plot twists in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields caused by the dark clouds of Mordor, the changing of the wind, the clearing of the sky and the falling of rain.<BR>4) The fall of Sauron and the destruction of Mordor were inferior sequences both in credible drama and special effects.<BR>5) He probably missed that the special effects of the death of Gollum in lava were not credible.<BR>6) The editing was a rushed and awful job. It detracted from the drama of both the destruction of the Ring and the Last stance of the Army of the West at the Black Gate. The lack of attention to detail and confusing timeline diminished the credibility of the story.<P>I wish that for the Extended Edition DVD, Peter Jackson would submit the original 4 1/2 movie he said he made instead of trying to fix the theatrical version with 20 or 40 minutes or more extra footage.<BR>I am thankful to PJ that as a result of these movies more people will read the books and admire Tolkien.<BR>I hope that whatever film company makes "The Hobbit" they will use the same actors, CG people, costume and art designers but pick a better screenwriter team, and a smarter and more considerate director than Peter Jackson

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For example, it made no sense that Faramir and anyone in his company would go blindly to fight openly to nearby Osgiliath without the protection of a fort, a wall, a trench, a hill or Gandalf to fend off from the Nazgul! It diminished Faramir from a wise, brave, sensitive and respected leader to a crybaby who would lead his fellow Gondorians to their certain death because he wanted the approval of his mad father. Military leaders don't act like that and followers are not as stupid to follow them either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's to further the concept of a suicide mission. He didn't go on it because he was a 'crybaby', he went on it to try & make up for Boromir dieing instead of him. I have no doubt if you were in his position, you'd do the same thing. And his followers would follow him because Faramir got his orders from the head man, & what he says goes. And they were all under Faramir anyways. <P>p.s. After viewing TTT I never thought I'd find myself sticking up for Faramir's character .<P>p.p.s. I seriously was laughing throughout most of your post.