Let's Play Dr. Phil!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm sorry if this is a repeat, but let's talk about Sméagol; or specifically:

• when did Gollum come into his life;
• his relationship with the aforesaid;
• any regrets for his former life; and most importantly
• would he have changed his mind at Cirith Ungol.

Now, the first one. I believe Gollum came first to his life due to a combination of factors, namely:

• the death of Déagol;
• his pariah status among his relatives; and
• his eventual exile.

Thus, he had to create for himself a new creature: one that thrives in solitude and darkness. But Gollum was too overpowering. Soon, it took over almost all of Sméagol, and became the dominant will.

So, any comments?

Later days! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
->Elenrod

[Theoric Windcaller]

Personally, I think that it wasn't nessecarily because he was lonely and exiled that Gollum was created, but I think Gollum was a fore-shadowing of the Ring. With Smeagol's possession of the Ring, Gollum was created, and Gollum was growing more and more every day, that soon it led to his exile.

Now, I also believe that even though in the end, Smeagol gave into Gollum, that it showed that for a while in TTT book, Smeagol had beaten Gollum, so that says right there that Gollum grew powerful yes, but not too powerful.

See, Gollum was driven by his lust for the Ring. Now, once he lost the Ring and met with Frodo and Sam, he truly was intent on helping them to Mordor, but as they neared the Ring's destruction as they treked more and more into Mordor, the Ring took its toll on both Gollum and Frodo. Frodo was growing weaker, becoming more vulnerable to the Ring's power, and Gollum's lust was only growing more stronger, and that was what gave Gollum power and motive over Smeagol.

Smeagol was lost, between the two hobbits and the Ring, and with the rising power of Gollum, he fell more towards the Ring.


That's my two cents. (BTW this is IMO)

[Imladris]

Here's my two cents worth: Gollum was never created at all. Gollum, imo, was Smeagol's bad side, the evil that is in every one of us. The Ring merely fed it, making it grow. As for regrets about his former life, I believe that he was torn apart by guilt and hatred for himself.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I think that it wasn't nessecarily because he was lonely and exiled that Gollum was created, but I think Gollum was a fore-shadowing of the Ring.

But Bilbo did not have his "Gollum."

it showed that for a while in TTT book, Smeagol had beaten Gollum...

Maybe "beaten" is not the right word(it's too conclusive), but maybe supressed. But I agree. When Frodo came to his life, the companionship(albeit not the arrangement he liked) he desired was once again gained, if only for a while.

->Elenrod

[Pyroclastic]

I think that Bilbo did indeed have a "Gollum" side to him, but he lived in different circumstances, which is why didn't allow his Golumn side to rule. Bilbo was sourrounded by hardy, faithfull, and encouraging friends. But remember when he gained The Ring, the first thing he did was lie about it, that's The Ring's influnce on bringing "Gollum" to the surface. Bilbo, unlike Smeagol, didn't need to become a Gollum in ordr to protect himself. Smeagol had been an insecure and needy person before he had the The Ring, and The Ring merely expounded upon that. Because Bilbo was a secure person, The Ring didn't have the easy time in seducing Bilbo that it did with Smeagol. In concluson: under different circumstances, Bilbo too would have become Gollum.

[Lord of Angmar]

But Bilbo did not have his "Gollum."

Oh, didn't he? I believe he did. It was just much smaller to begin with, had less time to grow at the hands of the Ring, and had less of a medium for development (the Ring's stay with Bilbo did not begin with a malicious act by Mr. Baggins, as it did with Gollum, and the Shire is not exactly the most conducive place for one's evil side to take form). The negative affect of the Ring on Bilbo was somewhat apparent in the scene wherein Gandalf tried to convince him to leave the Ring to Frodo.

As Imladris so aptly stated, Smeagol/Gollum's regrets about his former life were probably manifold. He hated his ascent into pschizophrenic 'Gollumity' (a word I made up in the 'Did You Trust Gollum?' thread [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ), hated the Ring (and therefore regretted the day he obtained the Ring by murdering his companion) and generally regretted leaving his former life behind.

[Theoric Windcaller]

Maybe "beaten" is not the right word(it's too conclusive), but maybe supressed.

Yes, I was at a lack of a better word, but I do believe that all the bearers of the Ring had a "Gollum" flare to them, save Sauron, who was pure evil.

In the movie, FotR (this is my only cinematic proof I have) but Bilbo snapped at Gandalf, in TTT Frodo snapped at Sam, and so forth.

I truly think that we all have a small dormant lust of power in us, and the Ring is a tool that only uncovers it for us.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:25 PM December 12, 2003: Message edited by: Theoric Windcaller ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Cinematic proof should not be given too much importance since we are discussing the books. In the books, Frodo never really "snaps" at Sam the way he does in the movies.

[Theoric Windcaller]

Once again, in lack of better terms, you can still see his strong-will waver throughout of the movies and books. Frodo did feel pity for Gollum and he did defend him. Frodo could relate to Gollum in a way, because they were both Ring-bearers. I'm just saying that we all have a little bit of what Gollum had in him, and Frodo's behavior in both the movie and books proves that.

[Wisdom of Wizardry]

I believe that the Gollum side of Smeagol teaches us a lesson about the amazing endurance and toughness of Hobbits in general.

This was the One Ring, after all. Its power is so far above Hobbits that it staggers the imagination. And yet, three Hobbits possess it, and all three resist its power to a degree far beyond what any other being could have done. It eventually overmasters Gollum; but only on the brink of Mt. Doom. Frodo is affected by it, but his later weakness and "thinning" are more due to the Ringwraith's wound than lingering effects of the ring, IMHO. Bilbo is, for the most part, totally unchanged by his long association with it.

Imagine what effect it might have had on Legolas. He is immortal, and his lineage is strong. He has great strengths already: long sight, endurance, a supreme sense of 'balance'(in emotional terms), skill with weapons, courage. One can imagine that, had he possessed the ring, he would have increased those powers a hundredfold; and thought to use those powers.

Note that neither Bilbo or Frodo ever try to use the ring to control others (with the exception that Frodo uses the ring's hold over Gollum to force his cooperation). They use it in very hobbitlike ways: to disappear from unpleasant houseguests! In Frodo's case, he used it during the attack on Weathertop only to protect himself, not to wield power over his assailants.

It is a recurring theme of this work that little things make a difference; that the common man has the courage of kings. I think that is a reflection of JRRT's roots in English culture. The class system that was slowly disappearing from English life (but has not yet entirely disappeared) is lovingly portrayed in Sam's relationship with Frodo. But WWI and WWII had shown that great deeds required courage and sacrifice from king and commoner alike: and in my mind the Hobbits are the spirit of the English common man. That spirit is ultimately uncorruptible, in JRRT's mind (and in mine), as is the spirit of the common American.

I agree with other posters that Gollum was the weaker nature that exists in all humans, brought to the fore by the power of the ring. But I think JRRT was making a statement about the strength and lasting virtue of the common man by investing Hobbits with the staggering burden of the ring, and its ultimate destruction.

[Lord of Angmar]

Excellent first post, Wisdom of Wizardry. Welcome to the Downs!

I think most of your points were right on target, although I hope your use of 'the spirit of' was not meant to mean 'the allegorical representation of'.

I think the idea that there is a little bit of 'Gollum' in everyone is a well-substantiated thesis. The exceptions, I believe, would probably be the Elves (although Galadriel's darker side did seem to emerge in her speech with regards to Frodo offering her the One Ring in the Fellowship of the Ring). JRR Tolkien's writing that in each Man (and thusly, each hobbit or Smeagol-type creature, since Tolkien wrote that they are believed to be descended from the Big Folk), there is a trace, or 'seed' of Morgoth which was planted in their hearts when they awoke under the shadow of his realm. This would seem to suggest that all Men had a potential evil side. A logical extension for that evil side would be the Ring, an inherent corrupter and a medium for the growth of the malevolent side of one's ego.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:42 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Wisdom of Wizardry]

Thank you for the kind words, Lord of Angmar.

I do remember that JRRT disavowed any scent of 'allegory' in an interview; but nevertheless nobody writes in a vacuum, and I firmly believe that his masterwork reflected the values, culture, and aspirations of his contemporary English times.

I have the feeling that Galadriel's flash of ambition and vision of herself as a dark and powerful queen were feigned. She had long ago considered what her choices would be, should the One Ring ever come within her grasp; and she had long ago decided that she could not safely wield it. I took her display as a sort of elvish joke, a harmless sham to daunt Frodo, before quickly revealing her true nature, and assuring him (and the company) that they were safe under her protection.

Perhaps such a jest, though, DOES reveal some hint of a dark side. She certainly made it clear that her power over all of the company was total!

I am new to the forum, as you noted in your reply to my post; so I don't know how trite my thoughts may be to those who have been here a long time. I trust that someone will gently throttle me if I belabor points that have already been talked to death by others.

As you can divine from my signature, I have been 'hooked' on JRRT for a long time. I first read the books when I was a twenty-something Navy flight instructor in the Pensacola, Florida area. I can clearly remember the sweaty flight suits, the endless coaxing to "relax, make small corrections, and TRIM, TRIM, TRIM"; while at the back of my mind I was in the Barrow Downs or on Weathertop with Frodo. The associations are so strong that I seldom think of that particular airplane without also thinking of the Ring Trilogy.

Looking forward to posting often over the next several months. Merry Christmas, everybody!

[Lord of Angmar]

I firmly believe that his masterwork reflected the values, culture, and aspirations of his contemporary English times.

As do I. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

Welcome to the Downs, Wisdom of Wizardry. It sounds to me like you qualify for the
Tolkien Coming of Age Club. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

And yet, three Hobbits possess it, and all three resist its power to a degree far beyond what any other being could have done.

Four Hobbits possessed it if you count Gollum, who was originally of Hobbit stock. One question that has always occurred to me, but to which I have never received a satisfactory answer, is why Smeagol was driven to murder for the Ring without even touching it, given that Hobbits are otherwise so resistant to its corrupting influence. Perhaps proto-Hobbits had not developed "Ring resistance". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Imagine what effect it might have had on Legolas. He is immortal, and his lineage is strong. He has great strengths already: long sight, endurance, a supreme sense of 'balance'(in emotional terms), skill with weapons, courage. One can imagine that, had he possessed the ring, he would have increased those powers a hundredfold; and thought to use those powers.

An excellent point! I have often seen it said that Legolas, being an Elf, would have had strong resistance to the Ring's powers. But, as you say, it is the very fact that he is an Elf which would make him a dangerous Ringbearer.

I have the feeling that Galadriel's flash of ambition and vision of herself as a dark and powerful queen were feigned. She had long ago considered what her choices would be, should the One Ring ever come within her grasp; and she had long ago decided that she could not safely wield it.

I disagree with you here though. Although there are various ideas presented on this issue in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien did, I believe, conceive that the test of temptation by the Ring was a very real one for Galadriel and that it was not until she was truly tested (by Frodo presenting it to her) that her ban on returning to Valinior was lifted. Also, I think that in one of his Letters, he speculates that she was fooling herself in believing that she would be able to supplant Sauron by wielding the Ring against him, which suggests that, rather than being feigned, her temptation was very real.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:48 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Wisdom of Wizardry]

Well, Saucepan Man, I bow to your greater erudition. I can see that to have any credibility on this site, I am going to have to read a lot more books about LOTR! I could use some help there. Many posters refer to books by initials only. Is there a bibliography on the site?

Also, the use of quotes from another's post is useful; but I don't see any obvious way to do that. Can some kind soul give me a quick primer on quoting from another post?

BTW, the link to the 'coming of age' site didn't work...
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:33 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: Wisdom of Wizardry ]

[The Saucepan Man]

I can see that to have any credibility on this site, I am going to have to read a lot more books about LOTR!

Don't worry about it. I've learned most of what I know since joining this forum. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Sorry about the link. This one should work.

And here is the Barrow Downs Book List. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I stand corrected at the "Bilbo's gollum" question. But anywhen, what about my last question?

Gollum, so hideously corrupted by the Ring, for a moment forgot his ingenious plan to recover his precious and felt genuine care for Frodo. Had Som not disturbed this peaceful moment, what would have happened?

Later days! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
->Elenrod

P.S. I know it's impossible, Sam being protective and all, but "what if"?