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Old 02-21-2009, 10:49 AM   #41
Feanor of the Peredhil
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Well then. I feel cheerful this morning. Phantom, I completely agree with everything you've said about Lando. He absolutely must survive.

Oh, and Han shot first. Just mentioning...

Here and gone in a flash!

Stick shift here I come!

PS: zomg, I've just realized that if Lommy was playing, 'Han shot first' could be seen as a clue! If only...

[/silly]

I think we should start with what is my usual game strategy: systematically kill everybody who might raise a good case (true or not) against me.

Vote Aim, lest our torrid romantic history come back to haunt me now, as I dangle over Doom itself!

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Old 02-21-2009, 11:02 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fea
I think we should start with what is my usual game strategy: systematically kill everybody who might raise a good case (true or not) against me.
Now that sounds like a good idea! I grow weary of you being lynched- usually always as an innocent. Perhaps if we made it our strategy to kill your attackers this game then you would survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath
clearly a pawn trying to get to the other side of the board by making himself look important
But... but I am important... My mom says so...

*sulks*
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:07 AM   #43
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There is a disturbance in the force....

Sally made a HP reference on the 'Downs! (So that's why I couldn't access the site this morning).

Well, one thing is clear: we don't have 9 white pawns. This is a chess game, so we have 8... and 8 black pawns, which means there are more people in this game than we think.

++Boro

++Mac

++Roa

++SPaM

++TGWBS

++Morm

++Diamond18

++Mith

Well, that takes care of that.

Looking at the rules of chess, it would make sense for the white queen to be some sort of multi-gifted, although that would unbalance the game too much, I suppose (perhaps not, though, if the gifted wolves can communicate with each other - that would give them quite an edge). Shame there aren't kings in this game.... lynch the right person, and instantly win.

Well, looking over the posts, I see some things that look disturbingly like the last game -
1) Nerwen looking suspicious (vague, safe, and making strange half-accusations). I think mods tend not to make people wolves twice in a row (although there have been notable exceptions), but I vowed to trust my instincts after the last game. I will look at her more closely, at least.

2) Nogrod fixating on banter. Please, not again (although the quote does express the point very nicely). I really see nothing odd about these so-called "confessions" - in fact, I'll add one of my own: I am the wookie.

3) A couple newbies (and a veteran player I haven't encountered before - Wilwa). Of course, I extend the same courtesy as last game - I won't vote for a newbie on Day 1. Day 2 and onward, though, no special treatment.

EDIT: X'd with Fea and my son.
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:15 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil View Post
I think we should start with what is my usual game strategy: systematically kill everybody who might raise a good case (true or not) against me.
Don't worry, I won't hurt you if you don't hurt me.
(or maybe I won't dream you if you don't dream me.... take your pick)

*throws a wrench in the works and runs away laughing*
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:18 AM   #45
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Okay, some halfway serious thoughts early on...

I've never been less afraid of the Werewolves.

Now, that's not meant to be an insult. It's merely a feeling I have based upon the roles that exist. The Werewolves have a Seer to guide their kills! So the Black Bishop dreams of me, finds me a Pawn, and guess what? I don't get touched by them for the rest of the game (or at least until all the gifteds are dead).

On the other hand, our gifteds are terrified of being discovered. Every night the Werewolves will either find a gifted or will be able to rule someone out- someone who they will likely attempt to keep alive during the days from then on as it will improve their nightly killing odds. The Wolf-Seer truly adds an interesting twist to this thing.

All of the pawns want the Werebear dead. The gifteds want the Black Bishop dead. Yeah, I guess the gifteds would probably table their desires if a chance to get rid of the Black Queen came up, as it would cut the night kills immediatley, but how likely is it that someone will be strongly suspected of looking like the Black Queen? That piece is on a team of its own. There will be no sort of teamwork to look for. I imagine the WereBear will be indistinguishable from a pawn. So how productive is it to even look for him?

Anyway, just thinking about roles out loud here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
Shame there aren't kings in this game.... lynch the right person, and instantly win.
Ha ha! Now that would be interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
I am the wookie.
What?! You mean I am part wookie? Well, that explains all the shaving I have to do.
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Rikae View Post
Well, one thing is clear: we don't have 9 white pawns. This is a chess game, so we have 8... and 8 black pawns, which means there are more people in this game than we think.
....
++Mith

Well, that takes care of that.
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:38 AM   #47
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:39 AM   #48
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Hmm, did Shasta even tell us whose side the cobbler is on? The werebear, the wolves, or any/all of them? I don't suppose it matters much (especially since the baddies won't actually be rivals until late in the game, most likely), but it would still be good to know. (Shasta? Shasta...?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp
Now, that's not meant to be an insult. It's merely a feeling I have based upon the roles that exist. The Werewolves have a Seer to guide their kills! So the Black Bishop dreams of me, finds me a Pawn, and guess what? I don't get touched by them for the rest of the game (or at least until all the gifteds are dead)
That kind of talk is liable to get you night killed! Or is that what you want? *shuts up*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
What?! You mean I am part wookie? Well, that explains all the shaving I have to do.
Having Mac as a father would explain it, too.
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:44 AM   #49
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Quote:
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BAD WOLF! BAD WOLF!
Who reference?
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:49 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
That kind of talk is liable to get you night killed! Or is that what you want? *shuts up*
Analyzing the roles will get me Night-killed? Well, maybe by the WereBear, but not the Wolves. You see, I'm being incredibly self-centered and assuming that the Black Bishop dreamed of me already thus making me safe from them.

But no, I'm not wanting to be Night-killed. Not this early. I've been anticipating this for a couple weeks, and I'm not ready to exit just yet. I'd say starting on Day 3 I'll really start rocking the boat, and will make two or three extremely accurate accusations.
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:51 AM   #51
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Okay, some halfway serious thoughts early on...

I've never been less afraid of the Werewolves.

Now, that's not meant to be an insult. It's merely a feeling I have based upon the roles that exist. The Werewolves have a Seer to guide their kills! So the Black Bishop dreams of me, finds me a Pawn, and guess what? I don't get touched by them for the rest of the game (or at least until all the gifteds are dead).

On the other hand, our gifteds are terrified of being discovered. Every night the Werewolves will either find a gifted or will be able to rule someone out- someone who they will likely attempt to keep alive during the days from then on as it will improve their nightly killing odds. The Wolf-Seer truly adds an interesting twist to this thing.

All of the pawns want the Werebear dead. The gifteds want the Black Bishop dead. Yeah, I guess the gifteds would probably table their desires if a chance to get rid of the Black Queen came up, as it would cut the night kills immediatley, but how likely is it that someone will be strongly suspected of looking like the Black Queen? That piece is on a team of its own. There will be no sort of teamwork to look for. I imagine the WereBear will be indistinguishable from a pawn. So how productive is it to even look for him?

Anyway, just thinking about roles out loud here.

Ha ha! Now that would be interesting.

What?! You mean I am part wookie? Well, that explains all the shaving I have to do.
Oh, and there's more. They have a Ranger, so there's always one element on the team immune to the Black Queen attacks. The Black Bishop can dream of her, leave some clues and basically blackmail them into helping the team's job. If by any chance they're attacked by the Queen, she is as good as dead, and they can just attack her back - and if she happens to kill the Hunter, he will probably be hunting her, and kill her.

Now, one question for the host. If the Black Bishop dreams of the Black Pawn, will it turn like a Black Pawn? Or instead, like a White Pawn?
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:59 AM   #52
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Analyzing the roles will get me Night-killed? Well, maybe by the WereBear, but not the Wolves. You see, I'm being incredibly self-centered and assuming that the Black Bishop dreamed of me already thus making me safe from them.
No, not analyzing the roles... but never you mind that. I think I see what you're driving at now.
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:06 PM   #53
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I think we should start with what is my usual game strategy: systematically kill everybody who might raise a good case (true or not) against me.
Yaaaaay lynch Fea time! The best part of waking up is lynched Fea in your cup!

...Just thought about that. Ew. I shouldn't be allowed to post before breakfast. All right I'm gonna go eat and I'll be back to post something productive. *saultes*
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:15 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansy
Oh, and there's more. They have a Ranger, so there's always one element on the team immune to the Black Queen attacks.
I forgot to talk about that- the idea of the Black pieces being at war with each other. Or not. Whatever it is they decide is the highest priority.

As far as I am concerned, were I a Wolf I would definitely not try to kill the Bear, but I would like to know who he is so that I could bump him off towards the end if necessary. That extra kill each night cuts the village down so quickly. Surely you can't pass that up. A Day 1 or Night 2 WereBear death would likely lead to a White Christmas. Er, victory.

My take on the Bear killing the Wolves- I would definitely try and kill Wolves once a certain point in the game had been reached. What point, you ask?

Well, if we're on Night 4 and no Wolves have died, I would say it's time to thin them a bit. But the Bear wouldn't want to attack them sooner as it might cause them to be wiped out too early, and he would lose their nightly kill.

However, perhaps the Bear will think it more important to completely control the night and end the threat of being slain at night? I don't know....

If that is the case, he will gun for the WereWolves from the start and will kinda sorta be an ally for us. But then again, if he cannot claim victory himself, is not the slaughter of the village his next greatest desire? Surely the Werebeasts are all servants of destruction, and would rather see evil win than good, even if they don't live to see it. If that is the method adopted by the WereWolves and WereBear, then they will be trying to avoid each other.

Though that is no easy task, for if the Werebeasts are able to identify each other with any success, one would think that the village would be able to do the same. So how possible to coordinate is it really? It almost seems silly to try. You could try and do the opposite and possibly do just as well.

Everywhere you look- interesting scenarios and layers of strategy. I love this set up!
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:17 PM   #55
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This version is not so different that it renders the first day's action useful until the second day. That being so, likely behaviour should by now have been considered by hunting parties, and now I for one wait to see who falls into those devious patterns.

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Old 02-21-2009, 12:24 PM   #56
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I would say the Black Queen HAS to kill the Black Bishop, for her own safety. Her life is doomed from the point the Black Bishop finds her - if he does, sooner or later, the Werebear will die. The White Bishop provides the same danger, in a different way - if they are revealed, and reveal the Black Queen at some point, she can be used as a "hired gun" for the innocents - actually, I just thought it can't happen, because if we tell the Queen who she kills, the Black Knight can just protect their target. Unless they're already dead.
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:31 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
Perhaps if we made it our strategy to kill your attackers this game then you would survive.
Pure brilliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikae
(or maybe I won't dream you if you don't dream me.... take your pick)
I can give you my dead honest word that I will not be dreaming of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp
that explains all the shaving I have to do.
Oh my.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansy
The White Bishop provides the same danger, in a different way - if they are revealed, and reveal the Black Queen at some point, she can be used as a "hired gun" for the innocents
I don't understand what you mean. The Black Queen is on xer own team. Surely xe wouldn't let the good guys boss xer around?

Or did I miss something about the roles?

*scurries off to check admin thread*
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:32 PM   #58
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Of course it's not good for her, but if she's given the choice between being executed and helping the innocents, what would she go for?
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:35 PM   #59
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Of course it's not good for her, but if she's given the choice between being executed and helping the innocents, what would she go for?
Given that werebears are evil, I'd assume xe'd pick evil.

So let me get this straight: the White Bishop can only PM the other gifteds after xe's dreamed of them?
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:44 PM   #60
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Given that werebears are evil, I'd assume xe'd pick evil.

So let me get this straight: the White Bishop can only PM the other gifteds after xe's dreamed of them?
They're a different evil than the three gifteds; either way, they have no choice, really. They can rebel against the innocents, trying to help the "wolf" team - but a win for the wolves is not a win for the werebear.

And I thought PM conversation was banned here... but then what stops the Black Bishop (or a teammate) from PMing their findings and misleading them?
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:47 PM   #61
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Hansy - that wouldn't work. A revealed werebear has no reason to bother trying to stay alive - threatening xem with lynching will do no good, the village can't control the werebear's kills. For that matter, the wolves can't, either. Once the werebear is known, xe is as good as dead, and xe knows it.

A werebear has only won, to my knowledge, once in werewolf history - and had to impersonate a gifted who wasn't in the game to do so. Of course, with the mysterious "white queen" role, that's a possibility for this bear, too, although it takes more than a little luck to make it work We should be very cautious about any "white queen" who reveals, at any rate.

Eomer's new persona is interesting... he was always cryptic and condensed, but seems to have increased the level of compression and encryption. The prejudice against day ones seems to remain intact, though.

Has everyone posted by now? Perhaps I'll try making a list (I may even start another spreadsheet) Day 1's honor has been attacked, it must be defended...
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:55 PM   #62
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Quote:
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I can give you my dead honest word that I will not be dreaming of you.
And I do likewise.

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Originally Posted by Hansy
And I thought PM conversation was banned here... but then what stops the Black Bishop (or a teammate) from PMing their findings and misleading them?
The rules of the game. PM'ing is only allowed between players under the circumstances specified by the mod. Normally, the wolves can PM each other during the night phase, and sometimes gifteds are given permission to PM as well, when certain conditions are met.
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:55 PM   #63
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It would work if they want to try second place instead of third, if they care. And if numbers are tight enough, they actually might get a shot at winning... but we don't want that so in that case there was no possible deal.

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Old 02-21-2009, 01:00 PM   #64
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Yeah, the wolves can PM each other, but in a game like this I don't think it would be fair for the Black Bishop to let the White Bishop PM the other innocent roles, as it's cutting them out on a possible strategy of pretending to be the White Bishop - and that actually applies to other games, just like in last one... now I'm thinking of what chaos would happen if the Cobbler decided to PM guess the Ranger or something
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:04 PM   #65
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What do you mean, "PM guess"?
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:04 PM   #66
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phantom's analysis of wolf/bear dynamics seems mostly sound. Which doesn't mean anything.

The huge thing about phantom is that he sounds basically the same whether he's innocent or not. He always sounds smart and reasonable, which makes him really really dangerous to whatever side is opposite him. So he often gets Night-killed fairly early in the game. If he doesn't, he's usually evil: (phantom: "I don't understand why I haven't gotten killed yet! Probably they're hoping to waste a day-lynch on me..." *cackles madly*).

So if phantom is still alive, especially with this double-kill system we've got, by Day 4 I say we lynch him.

Other Old Player dynamics: if everyone suspects Fea, she's innocent.

If nobody suspects Fea, she's guilty.

Now, these theories were based on when these were all still young and callow players like me (though I don't think phantom has changed much), so they ought to be taken with a grain of salt.

But I'm still going to keep them in mind as the game goes on.
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:12 PM   #67
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What do you mean, "PM guess"?
I meant that they could talk to the ranger saying they were the seer. Ignore the fact that it would require massive amounts of skill/luck to ever work, it was a really random thought, but my point is that if you're allowing the gifteds and only the gifteds to PM each other (again, besides wolf team), they're proving their roles to each other, and that kind of goes against the spirit of the game... "informed minority against uninformed majority", if the gifteds know each other for sure, they are just like a wolf team, with the advantage of having lots of plain innocents on their side, and the disadvantage of not having a night kill.
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:15 PM   #68
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would be breaking the rules.

Though if it results in modfire for the baddies, I'm all for it. ^_^
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:19 PM   #69
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Nemo [?!], you aren't new here, are you?
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:21 PM   #70
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First visited the main site in '01; first visited the forum in '03; became addicted when WWII was on.

*doffs cap*

At your service and your family's.

And by the way, the nick's still in a state of flux, so you can call me whatever until something better sticks. (I'm not a fan of the -o names, being female)
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:22 PM   #71
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Nemo [?!], you aren't new here, are you?
I wonder how much she would kill me if I inserted a joke from a certain Disney movie here....hmmmm.....Ah, well, I'll take the risk.


If we can't find a baddie within the first couple Days, we shouldn't fret. Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim!
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:23 PM   #72
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If we can't find a baddie within the first couple Days, we shouldn't fret. Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim!
Yeah, remember that narration when a duck ended up ripping out someone's heart?
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:31 PM   #73
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I really am rather concerned about the various baddies though. I need to take a better look to make sure I understand what they all can do, but basically we have gifted baddies who have the power to do....well a few different things between them. Fortunately, at least if I'm not mistaken, our (that is, the good) gifteds can do the same sorts of things, so while we're in big trouble I think as long as we've got talented gifteds we should be okay.

Although we need to kill the Black Queen post haste.
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Old 02-21-2009, 02:00 PM   #74
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Well then. I feel cheerful this morning. Phantom, I completely agree with everything you've said about Lando. He absolutely must survive.

Oh, and Han shot first. Just mentioning...
I agree with the whole Lando thing. And I am so geekying myself out on this thread already. We've had HP and Star Wars references, my inner fangirl if pleased.

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Yaaaaay lynch Fea time! The best part of waking up is lynched Fea in your cup!
You have no idea how much I laughed at that. And silly Mira(I like that one best) we don't lynch Fea till Day 3. Or at least that's how its been playing out...

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If that is the case, he will gun for the WereWolves from the start and will kinda sorta be an ally for us. But then again, if he cannot claim victory himself, is not the slaughter of the village his next greatest desire? Surely the Werebeasts are all servants of destruction, and would rather see evil win than good, even if they don't live to see it. If that is the method adopted by the WereWolves and WereBear, then they will be trying to avoid each other.

Though that is no easy task, for if the Werebeasts are able to identify each other with any success, one would think that the village would be able to do the same. So how possible to coordinate is it really? It almost seems silly to try. You could try and do the opposite and possibly do just as well.
I can't fully remember why I quoted you here except maybe to add this: the Black Queen wins if all innocents and Wolves are gone right? So then the Bear might want to keep more of the Wolves alive to be able to keep getting the double Night kill of innocents.

As for the Werebeasts identifying each other: if the Black Bishop, Rook, and Knight find out who the Black Queen is and vis versa what happens if the Black Rook is hunting the Black Queen and the Black Queen kills the Rook? Does that mean that they both die because the Queen was the hunted? Is that possible?

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I meant that they could talk to the ranger saying they were the seer. Ignore the fact that it would require massive amounts of skill/luck to ever work, it was a really random thought, but my point is that if you're allowing the gifteds and only the gifteds to PM each other (again, besides wolf team), they're proving their roles to each other, and that kind of goes against the spirit of the game... "informed minority against uninformed majority", if the gifteds know each other for sure, they are just like a wolf team, with the advantage of having lots of plain innocents on their side, and the disadvantage of not having a night kill.
It's not really a disadvantage to the innocents. The Seer then gets to share with the Ranger what they know. The Ranger can then really easily protect innocents instead of it being a shot in the dark. Also then they work together to win and keep innocents alive. So really, after the Seer dreams of one of the other innocent gifteds and gets to talk with them its actually better for us. We get extra protection and all that fun stuff.

As for my two cents on the roles: I wish I knew what the White Queen was. Maybe xim(though I really want to say "she") is immune to Werekills. That would make sense, I guess.

As for the Black Queen, I do agree with what I think the phantom about getting xim earlier, mostly to take out the whole two kills a Night aspect.
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Old 02-21-2009, 02:08 PM   #75
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Quote:
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phantom's analysis of wolf/bear dynamics seems mostly sound. Which doesn't mean anything.
Heh heh... not really.
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The huge thing about phantom is that he sounds basically the same whether he's innocent or not. He always sounds smart and reasonable, which makes him really really dangerous to whatever side is opposite him. So he often gets Night-killed fairly early in the game. If he doesn't, he's usually evil: (phantom: "I don't understand why I haven't gotten killed yet! Probably they're hoping to waste a day-lynch on me..." *cackles madly*).

So if phantom is still alive, especially with this double-kill system we've got, by Day 4 I say we lynch him.
I mostly agree with that. I'm often dead by then, so honestly I would love to survive until Day 4 even if it meant getting lynched then.
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if everyone suspects Fea, she's innocent.
I agree. On that note, I think I speak for everyone when I say Fea is looking very very suspicious.

And I just thought I'd mention that I like how Hansy thinks. Very underhanded ideas and such... I love that.
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Old 02-21-2009, 02:17 PM   #76
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Hansy must be the best cobbler seen yet!

But really - and correct me if I'm wrong - isn't this in the end quite straighforward as the setting goes?

A team of baddies who are quite like ordinary werewolves eg. they PM during the Night and kill. They just have gifts because they can also be attacked at Night (by the Black Queen - and hopefully also by the White Queen).

A werebear eg. the Black Queen working Solo like in any werecreature-game eg. independently from the baddie-team trying to win it on her own in the end.

A cobbler who generally wishes for the bad one's to win but has no special knowledge about the baddies.

The baddie team and the Black Queen would probably generally hope the other side to live at least a few Days to keep on harvesting goodies at the pace of 2/Night but sooner or later they (especially the trio) will start thinking exactly the opposite and would love to get the Black Queen killed.

What comes to the good gifteds they seem to have one possible advantage and that is that they can PM as soon as they have been dreamt of by the Bishop. Looking at the dire straits we're in with the number of baddies and kills per Night I don't think that is helping us too much as it is more than probable they never get to the point of discussing things all three of them. So even if one could say they are like a wolf team (they might become functioning like one at some stage of the game creating shared strategies and exchanging views confidently) it still remains the work of us pawns to carry the day - with their help if they can provide it. So Hansy: no this in not a game of three gifteds against three bad-gifteds (with an extra-spice of a Black Queen) but we all need to play: it's our votes that count and our decisions - and the sheer numbers of our observing eyes and minds...

Anyway, let's not start "PM-guessing" anyone, right? If something would be against the spirit of the game then that would.

EDIT: X'd with Lari & tp + fixed a typo
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Old 02-21-2009, 02:23 PM   #77
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One thing I thought of was whether or not the werebear can kill a wolf at Night, or vice-versa?
I think that they probably could, but I'm not sure. In the last game I played the werebear wasn't a proper werebear and couldn't kill at night, but I think that logically a bear should be able to overpower a wolf. And also a wolf pack could overpower a bear. So I don't think we need to worry about whether they can kill each other.

Quote:
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They have a Ranger, so there's always one element on the team immune to the Black Queen attacks. The Black Bishop can dream of her, leave some clues and basically blackmail them into helping the team's job.
Who is them? Is it the wolves? If the wolves work as a team, then I don't think that there needs to be any blackmailing. Or is that a wolvish slip? *dun! dun! dun!*

edit:x-ed a lot
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Old 02-21-2009, 02:28 PM   #78
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The White Bishop provides the same danger, in a different way - if they are revealed, and reveal the Black Queen at some point, she can be used as a "hired gun" for the innocents - actually, I just thought it can't happen, because if we tell the Queen who she kills, the Black Knight can just protect their target. Unless they're already dead.
How would that work? The wolves would killer xer immediately.
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Old 02-21-2009, 02:31 PM   #79
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I think Hansy was talking about the Werewolf team dreaming of the Queen - then somehow blackmailing her to do their bidding; lest they lead her to her death.

*Is here*



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Old 02-21-2009, 02:32 PM   #80
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