The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > The Barrow-Downs
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2007, 11:41 AM   #81
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
I am thinking this is a mistake and they just haven't updated their listing. Just to be sure, I ordered several days ago from a smaller seller who promised to ship immediately.
Well, I've just checked my order & it says:

Quote:
Delivery #1: Dispatching Soon We are preparing these items for dispatch and this part of your order cannot be cancelled or changed.
Another case of Harper Collins underestimating demand??
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 11:47 AM   #82
Child of the 7th Age
Spirit of the Lonely Star
 
Child of the 7th Age's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,135
Child of the 7th Age is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
Another case of Harper Collins underestimating demand??
You may be right, though it may be UK Amazon not locking down enough copies in advance? The smaller marketplace shops are making a point of saying that they can ship immediately.
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.
Child of the 7th Age is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 02:12 PM   #83
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Rateliff mentions in the interview:
Quote:
Q: I find myself intrigued by your claim of the strong connections between The Hobbit and Silmarillion. Care to provide any examples, or do I have to wait for publication?
Well, there's the mention of Beren and Luthien in the draft of Chapter One, for starters. The wizard says they don't need to worry about seeking revenge on the Necromancer because Beren and Tinuviel have already thrown down his dark tower. That's a pretty explicit reference to the events of 'The Lay of Leithian', and a pretty good indication to me that Bilbo's world and their world were thought of as one and the same from the very beginning.
Well, to me the mention of Beren & Luthien is hardly a 'pretty good indication' that TH was intended to be part of the Legendarium from the start. If we take a reference to B&L as 'evidence' of that, then we have to take similar references to 'Faerie in the West' as evidence that Roverandom was intended to take place in the same world as TH & LotR. Without LotR TH would have no connection to the Legendarium beyond a few shared names. All the reference to B&L indicates is that Tolkien made use of the Legendarium as it then existed to provide background for the story. And a more significant point is that Tolkien removed the reference.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2007, 04:22 AM   #84
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I've got it. Only had chance for a quick flick through so far. Not impressed with the quality to be honest. It doesn't have sewn in signatures, but the pages are glued together like a paperback & stuck in a hard cover.

And, believe it or not, this 476 page book doesn't have an Index. The only reference I can find to Beren & Luthien so far is that they 'broke his (the Necromancer's) power'
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2007, 05:38 AM   #85
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Amazon you minx...

Mine arrived this morning but I only got as far as the intro before life got in the way.

The binding is disappointing becasue although teh cloth back will endure better than paper it does make a hb first ed relatively ephemeral ...

since this is effectively one work in 2 volumes I humbly suggest that as with LOTR the index will be in PT 2? Inconvenient in the interim I admit, but not unreasonable.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2007, 06:12 AM   #86
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
since this is effectively one work in 2 volumes I humbly suggest that as with LOTR the index will be in PT 2? Inconvenient in the interim I admit, but not unreasonable.
Well, maybe. It still means you'll need both volumes to hand to check what's in volume 1, so it'll be a bit inconvenient still. And it smacks laziness, or lack of care on the part of HC. All the volumes of HoM-e have separate indexes. And the quality of the binding is appalling for a book costing Ł20. This is a scholarly work & many copies will end up in Libraries & get a lot of use. I can see a lot of them ending up broken in half down the spine. This sort of book needs to open flat.

Actually, this is the kind of thing that needs to be released on CD rom (as does HoM-e) but that's another discussion.

Anyway, I've just had an email from Amazon informing me that delivery on the 70th anniversary edition of The Hobbit has been put back to July.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2007, 06:25 AM   #87
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
The binding is annoying .... I am planning to take up book binding (still at the reading stage) partly becasue I have many old and indeed ancient volumes that need recovering and DIY is the economic option. Even very old volumes can be rebound relatively easily if they are sewn but this somewhat ironically named "perfect binding" cannot be so restored. Disappointing but alas in general hardbacks are a produced at a loss and so they cut corners. SinceI only paid Ł12 - barely more than a full price paperback, I am not too bothered. It was n impulse buy when I ordered Hurin and I don't know I would have got it if it had been a lot more ... maybe waited for the PB ..... but I think I shall enjoy it..
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2007, 06:39 AM   #88
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
. Disappointing but alas in general hardbacks are a produced at a loss and so they cut corners. SinceI only paid Ł12 - barely more than a full price paperback, I am not too bothered. It was n impulse buy when I ordered Hurin and I don't know I would have got it if it had been a lot more ... maybe waited for the PB ..... but I think I shall enjoy it..
I wonder when (or if) there will be a paperback. There may not be. Thing is, those who want this book would have paid an extra few quid to get it with a decent binding, & I'm not sure its the kind of thing that even fans of Tolkien will buy on impulse at Ł20 a copy. Ł40 is a lot of money for a study of TH. Can't help wondering whether HC were really all that bothered about publishing it at all. Not seen much in the way of promotion. Mind you, they've got new Tolkien stuff every month for most of this year -
next month History of TH vol 2,
July 70th anniversary h/b of TH, Children of Hurin calendar & diary,
August a hardback of Tolkien's Fairy stories (Roverandom, Smith, Niggle, AoTB),
September the CoH audiobook, &
October the revised edition of OFS & a new ed of Mr Bliss.

& maybe they've blown their Tolkien promo budget on CoH...
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2007, 06:50 AM   #89
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
maybe ..but I am sure that there were plenty like me who might not have rushed out to buy it but happily whacked it on to the CoH order as a linked deal...
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2007, 10:37 PM   #90
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Full of interesting little gems - like the fact that the original name of Golfimbul the Orc beheaded by Bullroarer in the act that originated the game of golf, was originally named Fingolfin! Clearly Tolkien wanted a name that included the 'golf' element in order to make the joke work, but this (as Rateliff points out) is an odd choice of name for a goblin.

Rateliff makes a decent case for TH being set in the world of the Sil right from the start - the reference to Beren & Luthien, the similarity between the painting of Mirkwood Tolkien made for TH & the painting of Beleg & Gwindor in Taur nu Fuin being virtually identical, etc, & accounts for the repeated references to the primary world (the Hindu kush, China, Shetland ponies) as being down to the fact that the Legendarium always, right from the BoLT period was a mythic history of our world. I'm not convinced. Roverandom is the problem for Rateliff's theory. Unless one is willing to argue that Roverandom, with its references to Faerie in the West is also set in the world of the Sil, & hence part of the Legendarium as well, its difficult to justify including TH in there - at least not from its origin.

Clearly Tolkien wanted it to be a part after the success of LotR - which is why in Vol 2 we can look forward to two chapters of TH re-written in the style of LotR.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2007, 08:40 AM   #91
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
I came back from the German Tolkien Seminar with a very interesting new publication by a small, specialized Swiss publishing company - Walking Tree Publishers. It's titled Roots and Branches, and is a collection of essays by Tom Shippey!! Many were published in obscure and hard-to-get publications, a number were given as speeches. I was excited to be able to read his paper on proverbiality in Tolkien from Birmingham 2005, since I wasn't able to attend his lecture then, and I'm looking forward to the rest as well.

I also bought Inside Language by Ross Smith - on linguistic and aesthetic theory in Tolkien. I have only peeked inside, so can't say anything about it yet. (Both above books are brand new, so not yet listed on the website, but it is possible for North American and British readers to order them, as they are printed on demand there as well as in continental Europe.)

Then I also brought the second volume of Tolkien and Modernity, which looks interesting, though I didn't buy it for that reason - I translated one paper in it from German into English! (A hard bit of work, if I may say so - academic German is rather difficult to translate!) Obviously, I did want to preserve a publication to which I contributed to show my grandchildren someday...
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2007, 03:56 AM   #92
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Leaf

Now I haven't been on this thread ina while and I was going to recommend the collection of Tom Shippey essays only to find Esty has been more on the ball

Still, you guys can have the Amazon link if you likes: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roots-Branch...3715062&sr=1-1

I bought it for davem back in June but we have such a huge stack of reading to do it has not been read yet - however a fellow TS member on me F List (a blogging thing) was the first person I saw recommend it and he reckons it's good, so if Esty does too...

Esty, I thought you were at the Shippey talk on proverbs??? Was that when you had to go and rehearse? Is the Tolkien & Modernity one worth having as I've got a growing interest in this idea.

Anyway, another new one that I can recommend (and davem bought this one for me ), especially to all my fellow plantswomen is The Plants of Middle-earth: Botany and Sub-creation by Dinah Hazell. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plants-Middl...3715062&sr=1-1. Not only is this interesting but it's rather nice looking too, and all us gardeners like to look at nice pictures of plants!
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2007, 06:19 AM   #93
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Was going to link to this elsewhere, but

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0...476136-6725516

Looks interesting, but I don't have it as yet. Not a Tolkien book as such, but Tolkien is referenced in the final chapter (check out the 'Look Inside' option) as being inspired by Norse literature.

Probably for Fans of Norse literature & Tolkien completists...
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2007, 11:18 AM   #94
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Hobbit 70th Anniversary Edition http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...er_Collins.php

& the CoH audio book will be available as a download http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...ugust_2007.php
(Could we hope that the illustrations are included as jpeg's? on the cd's?)

Last edited by davem; 08-16-2007 at 11:23 AM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2007, 12:21 AM   #95
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Harper Collins are rubbish..... or...

I've just got an email from Amazon about the 70th Anniversary Hobbit. They estimate that rather than delivery being today or tomorrow, it will be next February! Now, the boxed set, including Rateliff's History of TH as well as the 70th anniversary edition, is supposed to be out this month - & if its the case that TH will only be available separately next February something is definitely wrong - those of us who got the HoTH volumes as they appeared are being penalised. Of course, Amazon could be wrong - that said, this edition of TH has been promised for the last six months & has been constantly put back by the publishers.

Further bad news is that the CoH audio book, promised by Harper Collins for publication three days ago (3rd Sept), is now due out on November 5th, & the h/b Tales from the Perilous Realm (including Roverandom, Giles, Smith, Niggle & AoTB) has been promised from August 6th & still not appeared.

End rant......
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 03:20 PM   #96
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Pretty, pretty thing...

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...xe_edition.php

Anyway....an update on my rant.

Recieved an email from Amazon that TH has dispatched. Don't know who's mistake it was to send the 'Feb. delivery notification - misinfo from H-C or Amazon getting their dates wrong - I'd lean towards it being H-C. Tales from the Perilous Realm is now listed as being published Sept 1st 2008.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 12:39 AM   #97
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
More on the new Hobbit

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...er_Collins.php
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 11:44 AM   #98
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Well, I've just got The Hobbit 70th anniversary edition. Nice matte cover. Its the cheaper 'perfect' binding, rather than the sewn in signatures of the recent LotR, Sil & UT editions, but it does include the 'Mirkwood' illustration. Sadly, the fold out Thror's Map included in the deluxe edition, with the Moon Runes printed in reverse on the back so that they show through when held up to the light (as Tolkien intended) is not included. Certainly worth adding to your collection for all that.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2007, 09:49 AM   #99
Child of the 7th Age
Spirit of the Lonely Star
 
Child of the 7th Age's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,135
Child of the 7th Age is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
My Houghton Mifflin 70th Anniversary Hobbit arrived today. Davem -- I assume you purchased the Harper Collins edition? Mine sounds similar to yours. After all these recent "glitzy" collector's edition, this one is more like a little grey mouse. Very comfortable to read. I rather like it, especially the muted tones of the cover that remind me a little of the Harper Collins History of the Hobbit. Does yours have the first chapter of LotR tucked into the back and the short foreward by Christopher dated 1987?
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.
Child of the 7th Age is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2007, 11:12 AM   #100
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age View Post
My Houghton Mifflin 70th Anniversary Hobbit arrived today. Davem -- I assume you purchased the Harper Collins edition? Mine sounds similar to yours. After all these recent "glitzy" collector's edition, this one is more like a little grey mouse. Very comfortable to read. I rather like it, especially the muted tones of the cover that remind me a little of the Harper Collins History of the Hobbit. Does yours have the first chapter of LotR tucked into the back and the short foreward by Christopher dated 1987?
I think that, as with CoH, both HM & HC have gone for the same design & contents. Of course, including the Long Expected Party chapter in there opens up the whole can of worms about whether TH is part of the Legendarium proper.....
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2007, 11:57 AM   #101
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,159
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem View Post
I think that, as with CoH, both HM & HC have gone for the same design & contents. Of course, including the Long Expected Party chapter in there opens up the whole can of worms about whether TH is part of the Legendarium proper.....
No, it doesn't because

1. The Silm as a satisfactorily completed book was just a gleam in JRRT's and CT's eyes when TH and LotR were published, so the original inclusion of LEP had nothing to do with any kind of statement about the Legendarium.

2. Inclusion of LEP was related to the fact that Tolkien started LotR as a sequel to TH. Even if LotR grew beyond that intention, the original intention is not negated.

3. Inclusion of such chapters as LEP was a publishing strategy related to marketing. It was designed to inspire readers to buy more books (and maybe even pad a smallish book to make it seem more substantial). It was not designed to make a statement about any kind of authorial universe, about which readers at the time knew nothing.

4. Removing LEP from an edition of TH which is not represented as an exact reprinting of the original first edition and which includes several other items would represent a revision to the history of publication of TH. It happened. Discussing it of course is legitimate--many people do enjoy the wriggling aspect of argument--but to erase it is the worst sort of historical revisionism.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

Last edited by Bęthberry; 09-22-2007 at 12:28 PM.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2007, 02:24 PM   #102
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry View Post
No, it doesn't because

1. The Silm as a satisfactorily completed book was just a gleam in JRRT's and CT's eyes when TH and LotR were published, so the original inclusion of LEP had nothing to do with any kind of statement about the Legendarium.
Well, one could argue that the mythology was fully formed (certainly in Tolkien's mind) when Tolkien began TH, & despite Rateliff's arguments to the contrary TH was not written with anything but a very indirect relation to the Legendarium - yes, the early drafts contain references to Beren & Luthien, along with Gondolin & such, but they also contain references to China, the Hindu Kush & Shetland ponies.

Quote:
2. Inclusion of LEP was related to the fact that Tolkien started LotR as a sequel to TH. Even if LotR grew beyond that intention, the original intention is not negated.
It could be argued that by the time The New Hobbit became LotR it had ceased to be a sequel to TH & become the final movement of the Silmarillion. Tolkien clearly stated that he 'did not approve of The Hobbit' preferring instead his own mythology. Of course, once LotR did become part of the Sil proper he was stuck with TH - which is neither part of the mythology proper (in CT's opinion - which is the main reason TH is not included in HoM-e). I think this is confirmed by the fact that he struggled & failed to make it (or a version/retelling of it) fit the mood & style of the Legendarium. Flieger doesn't count it as part of the Legendarium either, & dislikes it intensely (which I don't - its one of my favourite books)

Quote:
3. Inclusion of such chapters as LEP was a publishing strategy related to marketing. It was designed to inspire readers to buy more books (and maybe even pad a smallish book to make it seem more substantial). It was not designed to make a statement about any kind of authorial universe, about which readers at the time knew nothing.
That I accept - a clear marketing strategy. Of course, most recent pb editions of TH have included LEP. Personally, I find it leaves TH feeling 'unfinished'. Rather than a complete tale in its own right, with a beginning, middle & end it is reduced to a prequel to LotR.

Quote:
4. Removing LEP from an edition of TH which is not represented as an exact reprinting of the original first edition and which includes several other items would represent a revision to the history of publication of TH. It happened. Discussing it of course is legitimate--many people do enjoy the wriggling aspect of argument--but to erase it is the worst sort of historical revisionism.
I don't see how it constitues 'revisionism' at all. Tolkien never authorised LEP to be included in TH, & it seems to me to be simply an extended advert for LotR.

I think the bottom line is Th wasn't written as a sequel to or continuation of the mythology as it existed at the time of writing, once the New Hobbit had become part of The Sil mythology Tolkien was stuck with TH & repeatedly tried & failed to properly integrate it & in the end gave up. TH should be seen as a stand alone tale, not as the precursor to something greater. If readers want to see it as a part of the Legendarium proper they are free to do so - Rateliff provides enough 'evidence' to convince those who want to be convinced (against the clear statements of both Tolkien pere & fils) but adding LEP is an attempt to tie TH directly into LotR & thus to The Sil mythology, when there is a strong (some of us would say convincing) argument to be made that it it not.

EDIT more from Rateliff on this here http://sacnoths.blogspot.com/2007/09...-seen-two.html

Last edited by davem; 09-22-2007 at 02:28 PM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2007, 06:23 PM   #103
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,159
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Thank you, davem, for rehearsing the argument about TH's status in the Legendarium. I'm sure there would be one or two Downers at least who are reading this thread who might not previously have been acquainted with the argument.

But to focus on the new Tolkien books aspect of this topic, I doubt that any of us have access to Tolkien's mind at the time he wrote TH or recited it to his children (or at any other time for that matter), so it's a bit dodgy saying what existed in his mind. Millions of marriages might be headed for the rocks if we could read minds so easily--or possibly be salvaged--especially after the fact.

And I'm ever so intrigued by that announcement in the 1937Allen and Unwin catalogue. I wonder who wrote it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Announcement of The Hobbit's publication
The period is the ancient time between the age of Faerie and the dominion of men when the famous forest of Mirkwood was still standing and the mountains were full of danger.
Here's the link you provided on Esty's TH birthday thread: Announcement of TH
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2007, 12:31 AM   #104
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry View Post
Thank you, davem, for rehearsing the argument about TH's status in the Legendarium. I'm sure there would be one or two Downers at least who are reading this thread who might not previously have been acquainted with the argument.
Don't mention it. That's what i'm here for.

Quote:
But to focus on the new Tolkien books aspect of this topic, I doubt that any of us have access to Tolkien's mind at the time he wrote TH or recited it to his children (or at any other time for that matter), so it's a bit dodgy saying what existed in his mind. Millions of marriages might be headed for the rocks if we could read minds so easily--or possibly be salvaged--especially after the fact.
i think I quite fairly presented the evidence & offered up CT & Flieger as proponents of the TH is not part of the Legendarium argument & Rateliff as part of the oh yes it is lobby. Lot's of us have attempted to guess what was in his mind at various times, what his motives were, or why he even bothered at all, when he could just have got seriously drunk & found a nice comfortable gutter to lie down in.

Quote:
And I'm ever so intrigued by that announcement in the 1937Allen and Unwin catalogue. I wonder who wrote it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Announcement of The Hobbit's publication
The period is the ancient time between the age of Faerie and the dominion of men when the famous forest of Mirkwood was still standing and the mountains were full of danger.
Here's the link you provided on Esty's TH birthday thread: Announcement of TH
Possibly Tolkien himself - sounds like his phraseology. Of course 'age of faerie' could mean 'world of the Legendarium' (Fairies at that time still being a name for Elves) - which is what Rateliff would argue, or it could just mean 'age of fairytale' where Elves & fairies rode Shetland ponies over the Hindu Kush...
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 01:21 PM   #105
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
A new edition of CoH - for the collectors (& older Downers) the large print edition

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...bookdeposi-21/

Oh, & Amazon.ca state that the paperback CoH is published April 7th 2008 - doesn't mention if the paintings are included.
http://www.amazon.ca/Children-Hurin-...0834773&sr=8-4

Last edited by davem; 09-26-2007 at 01:29 PM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 01:30 PM   #106
Valier
Twisted Taleswapper
 
Valier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: somewhere between sanity and insanity
Posts: 1,737
Valier is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I'm not sure if it is new, but has anyone read "Children of Hurin"? I just recently bought it because I've never seen it before. It has alot of the same stuff that is in the Sil and Unfinished tales, but there is a bunch of new stuff added. If it is new I can surely find out what was newly added and share what I've found.
__________________
grand return?........
Valier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 05:30 AM   #107
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
New Paperback LotR 7th April 2008

A three volume set with the Alan Lee Illustrations:

Quote:
The first ever illustrated paperback of part one of Tolkien's epic masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings, featuring 19 colour paintings by Alan Lee. Sauron, the Dark Lord, has gathered to him all the Rings of Power -- the means by which he intends to rule Middle-earth. All he lacks in his plans for dominion is the One Ring -- the ring that rules them all -- which has fallen into the hands of the hobbit, Bilbo Baggins. In a sleepy village in the Shire, young Frodo Baggins finds himself faced with an immense task, as his elderly cousin Bilbo entrusts the Ring to his care. Frodo must leave his home and make a perilous journey across Middle-earth to the Cracks of Doom, there to destroy the Ring and foil the Dark Lord in his evil purpose. JRR Tolkien's great work of imaginative fiction has been labelled both a heroic romance and a classic fantasy fiction. By turns comic and homely, epic and diabolic, the narrative moves through countless changes of scene and character in an imaginary world which is totally convincing in its detail.Part of a set of three paperbacks, this classic edition is available in a smart new livery, and is illustrated by Alan Lee throughout to complement the new paperback of The Children of Hurin.
So, looks like the CoH paperback is published on the same date.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 04:23 PM   #108
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
This one also looks interesting - if a little expensive: Chesterton and Tolkien as Theologians

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...heologians.php
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2007, 01:12 PM   #109
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Pics of the new LotR & Hobbit paperbacks

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...y_Alan_Lee.php

Designed to match the CoH paperback http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...per_Deluxe.php

All released next April.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 03:48 PM   #110
A_Brandybuck
Haunting Spirit
 
A_Brandybuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 95
A_Brandybuck has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to A_Brandybuck Send a message via AIM to A_Brandybuck
This one here seems to be very interesting: The Silmarillion: 30 years on
http://www.walking-tree.org/cormareB....php?number=15

Here are some more pieces information about the content or the authors of the essays, respectively. Sadly it is on German, but maybe Google will help....
http://www.tolkien-buecher.de/news.php?id=61
__________________
„I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
A_Brandybuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2007, 09:46 AM   #111
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Any questions on Walking Tree Publications (the link provided by A_Brandybuck above) can be sent to me - I have my fingers in several pies there, and will be happy to translate information for those interested. The books themselves are in English and are well worth reading.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 12:26 AM   #112
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
More on this book from the Tolkien Library site:
http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...y_Years_On.php

Also, the Tolkien Society are offering 2 recordings on CD of Tolkien related talks:

1st is Facets of Tolkien: Priscilla Tolkien from 1977 on The Silmarillion, Humphrey Carpenter from the same year on The Silmarillion, & Raynor Unwin in 1980 on Unfinished Tales.

2nd is Tolkien & the Inklings: Humphrey Carpenter in 1978 on his book The Inklings, Tom Shippey in 1982 on The Righteous Pagan in Tolkien, & Barbara Strachey in 1981 on Journeys of Frodo.

Available from Tolkien Society Trading Ltd, 8 Chantry Lane, Westbury, Wiltshire, BA 13 3BS, UK for £15.99 (£17.50 for European orders, £17.99 rest of the world) each or £28.00 (£29.75 Eur./£32 RoW) for both.

Last edited by davem; 12-03-2007 at 06:09 AM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2008, 11:53 AM   #113
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
More on the edition of 'Tales from the Perilous Realm' due out Sept/Oct from Harper Collins.

Quote:
The five tales are written with the same skill, quality and charm that made The Hobbit a classic. Largely overlooked because of their short lengths, they are finally together in a volume which reaffirms Tolkien's place as a master storyteller for readers young and old.

Roverandom is a toy dog who, enchanted by a sand sorcerer, gets to explore the world and encounter strange and fabulous creatures. Farmer Giles of Ham is fat and unheroic, but - having unwittingly managed to scare off a short-sighted giant - is called upon to do battle when a dragon comes to town; The Adventures of Tom Bombadil tells in verse of Tom's many adventures with hobbits, princesses, dwarves and trolls; Leaf by Niggle recounts the strange adventures of the painter Niggle who sets out to paint the perfect tree; Smith of Wootton Major journeys to the Land of Faery thanks to the magical ingredients of the Great Cake of the Feast of Good Children.

This new collection is fully illustrated throughout by Oscar-winning artist, Alan Lee, who provides a wealth of pencil drawings to bring the stories to life as he did so memorably for The Hobbit and The Children of Húrin. Alan also provides an Afterword, in which he opens the door into illustrating Tolkien's world.

World-renowned Tolkien author and expert, Tom Shippey, takes the reader through the hidden links in the tales to Tolkien's Middle-earth in his Introduction, and recounts their history and themes.

Lastly, included as an appendix is Tolkien's most famous essay, "On Fairy-stories", in which he brilliantly discusses fairy-stories and their relationship to fantasy.

Taken together, this rich collection of new and unknown work from the author of The Children of Húrin will provide the reader with a fascinating journey into lands as wild and strange as Middle-earth.
It will be available in standard H/B & de-Luxe (same format as the CoH de-Luxe).

Tom Shippey intro, Alan Lee illustrations & Afterword, & OFS included..... have to say that a Hobbit movie pales into insignificance.......
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2008, 12:10 PM   #114
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Sounds nice; enticing, with Lee's illustrations, though a hardback is a rather expensive addition for those of us who already have all of those works. I can suggest a perfect companion:



More information here. (Cover illustration by Anke Eissmann)
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2008, 12:12 PM   #115
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Cover pic for Tales from the Perilous Realm..

http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/Conte...px?objId=38122
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 05:13 AM   #116
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
The proceedings of the Tolkien 2005 conference are due to made available around the time of Oxonmoot. The editors (all just TS members) have been working hard on them for nowt but the fun of it.

Should cost about Ł35, which is expensive but I've Gotta Have It, because there was loads of good stuff I missed (it was just impossible to go to everything), loads of stuff I did not miss but I'd like to read the papers from - and most importantly because the proceedings of the Centenary Conference is (are?) one of my fave Tolkien books and these are impossible to obtain now. That was full of random but inspired stuff and this should be the same.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 05:45 AM   #117
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
That's great news, Lal! I will definitely buy it as well, to freshen up some topics and to be able to read those which I wasn't able to hear. I hope it will be available at Oxonmoot, as I could then purchase it without mailing costs.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 05:51 AM   #118
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
That's great news, Lal! I will definitely buy it as well, to freshen up some topics and to be able to read those which I wasn't able to hear. I hope it will be available at Oxonmoot, as I could then purchase it without mailing costs.
In the last issue of Amon Hen it said they should be available to collect at Oxonmoot - I would imagine putting an order in to TS Trading (you can get to it via the TS website) would reserve you a copy. However they did specifically warn that they are incredibly heavy and I understand it comes in two volumes, so it might end up costing you a lot in extra baggage on a flight!

EDIT - checked Amon Hen and you can order via TS Trading. UK price - Ł35; Europe and World Surface price - Ł50; World Air price - Ł66. If you mark the order "Oxonmoot collection" and it is available at that time, you will be refunded the postage.

Also, Tolkien Studies 5 will be out soon (price Ł26.99) - though if I had to choose between that and the 2005 papers, I'd pick the papers because Tolkien Studies can be a bit dry

Bob Blackham also has a book coming out titled Tolkien's Oxford - this should be good as his book on Birmingham was ace. And he's a nice bloke too, always good to see royalties going to a nice bloke
__________________
Gordon's alive!

Last edited by Lalwendë; 08-25-2008 at 07:17 AM.
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2008, 12:49 PM   #119
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Whoa! Check out the contents of the Proceedings of Tolkien 2005:

http://www.tolkiensociety.org/2005/p...ngs/index.html

Stellar cast list plus a paper on just about everything. That should keep any reader going for a few months. This is a must-have book for me.

Esty gets a virtual drink if she can spot the obvious omission. I wonder why that has been left out?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2008, 01:15 PM   #120
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
Stellar cast list plus a paper on just about everything. That should keep any reader going for a few months. This is a must-have book for me.
Whoa, that looks all too interesting - too promising from what I see, though, I am kind of afraid that I won't have the chance to obtain it
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:05 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.