'Pre-baptised'

[davem]

So I was thinking. CS Lewis once said that his intention in the Narnia books was to 'pre-baptise' children's imaginations - they would first read the Narnia books, & when they later encountered Christianity they would be in some way prepared for what they would encounter in the Christian story. What he meant, I think, was that Jesus would remind them of Aslan & so he wouldn't seem so 'strange' & unfamiliar to them. Perhaps he also meant that the Narnia stories would create a 'longing' in them for a 'bigger' story.

Now, was there anything that 'pre-baptised' you for Middle-earth?

For me, believe it or not, it was a Monty Python sketch. I was about 12 or 13 years old & I had flicked across onto BBC1 & Python was on. There was a panning shot of a bleak Icelandic landscape & a voice intoned the following:

"Erik Njorl, son of Frothgar, leaves his home to seek Hangar the Elder at the home of Thorvald Nlodvisson, the son of Gudleif, half brother of Thorgier, the priest of Ljosa water, who took to wife Thurunn, the mother of Thorkel Braggart, the slayer of Cudround the powerful, who knew Howal, son of Geernon, son of Erik from Valdalesc, son of Arval Gristlebeard, son of Harken, who killed Bjortguaard in Sochnadale in Norway over Cudreed, daughter of Thorkel Long, the son of Kettle-Trout, the half son of Harviyoun Half-troll, father of Ingbare the Brave, who with Isenbert of Gottenberg the daughter of Hangbard the Fierce ... "

Now, up to then, I'd never come across the Eddas or thee Sagas, & this was totally strange to me, yet at the same time it awakened a desire in me that was fulfilled three or four years later when I discovered The Hobbit & LotR. I went on to read the Eddas, the Sagas, Beowulf, The Mabinogion, Kalevala - & many of the other works that inspired Tolkien himself, but looking back on it, it was those Pythons that awoke the desire for Middle-earth. Of course the sketch was meant to gently mock Saga literature, but even in that form it touched me on a very deep level.

What was it for you? Was there something that made you realise there was something you were looking for - some 'gap' that you hadn't been aware of up till then - & suddenly, when you found Middle-earth, you realised 'That's what it reminded me of!'

[Boo Radley]

Probably for me, it was all the Sword and Sorcery books I had read back in Jr. High. Conan, Fahfred and the Grey Mouser, Elric, Kull of Valusia. I devoured those books.
But they were all short stories and I wanted to immerse myself in something a bit grander in scale.
Then, in my Junior year of High School, a buddy of mine told me about LoTR.
And then, there was no looking back.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Now, was there anything that 'pre-baptised' you for Middle-earth?

For me, believe it or not, it was a Monty Python sketch. . . .

What was it for you? Was there something that made you realise there was something you were looking for - some 'gap' that you hadn't been aware of up till then - & suddenly, when you found Middle-earth, you realised 'That's what it reminded me of!'

Funny you should mention the Python sketch, davem, as I often instinctively associate Balin and Dwalin, Kili and Fili, and Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin and Gloin with that sketch, to say nothing of Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Thorin. To be honest, I'm not sure which came first in my 'baptism, Tolkien or Python. Certainly, the 'gap' in this picture of the viking headpiece absolutely created a horns of dilemma about the origins of northern humour. To be honest, if only Cleese had had a beard, I think my image of dwarven women would have been secured.

[Formendacil]

Um... does anyone else see Legolas in that picture?

I realise it's totally offtopic, but my first thought was that something had photoshopped movie-Legolas into that Viking...

Anyways...

Ironically enough, if anything pre-baptised me for the Lord of the Rings, it was those selfsame Chronicle of Narnia of which you speak.

[narfforc]

Strangly I was also Pre-baptised by the Chronicles of Narnia, along with Thor the God of Thunder (Marvel Comics), I was in a play at school (1970) as Fili and the year after started to read about The Saxons and Vikings I went on to read about more Norse and Celtic mythology after reading Lord of the Rings. One of the other set of books I read was the John Carter Mars series with it's strange names of Barsoom and Tars Tarkus, however it was Narnia that set the joy in my heart.

P.S Did Erik ever find Hangar the Elder?


.

[davem]

The 'pre-baptism' idea is also found in Niggle (Niggle's Parish is 'the best introduction to the Mountains'). I wonder if Tolkien & Lewis were trying to 'pre-baptise' readers into the same thing, though?)

What interests me re the Python sketch is that it is basically a list of strange (though evocative) names - there isn't much of a 'story' there. Except....

There is - the names themselves imply great events: Gudleif, half brother of Thorgier, the priest of Ljosa water, who took to wife Thurunn, the mother of Thorkel Braggart, the slayer of Cudround the powerful, who knew Howal, son of Geernon, son of Erik from Valdalesc, son of Arval Gristlebeard, son of Harken, who killed Bjortguaard in Sochnadale in Norway over Cudreed, daughter of Thorkel Long, the son of Kettle-Trout, the half son of Harviyoun Half-troll, father of Ingbare the Brave, who with Isenbert of Gottenberg the daughter of Hangbard the Fierce ...

Where was Ljosa water? How come Harviyoun a 'half-troll'? This 'list of names' - didn't one critic describe The Sil as an 'Elvish telephone directory? - is fascinating in itself, without knowing anything more of the story.

BTW a friend has mentioned that it may have been Terry Jones, himself something of a medievalist, & Tolkien fan (he recorded the audio books of Tolkien's Gawain, Pearl & Sir Orfeo) who was responsible for that particular sketch. And I think I'm right in saying that Jones was responsible for the 'Python' movie Erik the Viking.

P.S Did Erik ever find Hangar the Elder?

I always wondered that too. I remember feeling very disappointed when they went off to do 'something completely different' at that point...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What a fun topic, davem! There's another Tolkien reference to something similar in Smith of Wootton Major - the fairy queen on the Great Cake:

Better a little doll, maybe, than no memory of Faery at all. For some the only glimpse. For some the awaking.

If anything in particular paved the way for LotR for me, it was probably the reading of fairy tales as a child. After all, many of them are short story versions of quests, and there are dragons, talking animals, kings and queens, magical items - and fairies! I read a lot of "advanced" fairy tales after the usual assortment of Grimm's etc. - international or literary stories that took me away from the familiar world of folk tales.

What also prepared me for an epic tale of this magnitude was the fact that I began reading huge historical novels in my early teens. LotR does read like an historical story, and anyone who has already read War and Peace can't be fazed by a mere 1000 pages or so... Of course, I read LotR at a later age than many others here, and 'The Council of Elrond' was fascinating, not boring to me!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

So I was thinking. CS Lewis once said that his intention in the Narnia books was to 'pre-baptise' children's imaginations - they would first read the Narnia books, & when they later encountered Christianity they would be in some way prepared for what they would encounter in the Christian story. What he meant, I think, was that Jesus would remind them of Aslan & so he wouldn't seem so 'strange' & unfamiliar to them. Perhaps he also meant that the Narnia stories would create a 'longing' in them for a 'bigger' story.

Okay, so I'm going to have to admit up front that Lewis' Narnia is not as interesting to me as Tolkien's Middle-earth. That said, what intrigues me is this idea that a story has to prepare children's imaginations for another story. (I don't think I'm taking this topic off-topic, just wondering about a different tangant.)

Baptism in its most literal sense involves a washing or submersion in water, a purification marking entrance into witness or membership in the community. For the sake of the original quotations from Lewis, I'll limit my thoughts to Christian ideas about the ritual.

Now, traditionally baptism means the washing away or remission of sins in preparation for receiving Christ. What sins could Lewis imagine his story would be washing away? Or was he merely being allegorical (as was his wont) in suggesting some kind of precursive experience with purification which would enable children (in this case) to perceive the holy story? Or was he thinking of Catholic ideas of baptism, a desire to be part of the Church founded by Christ?

I guess what I am getting at is this idea that one needs to be cleansed of error and mistake, prepared to accept the greater meaning of a fulsome text, whether it is Lewis or Tolkien.

So, first of all, could there be texts which in fact prepare us not to understand and accept those of Lewis and Tolkien? Is our reading such that we have to be purged of some of our tastes and familiar favourites before we can appreciate Narnia or Middle-earth? What are these texts? Are there truly sins in reading that must be purified?

Secondly, what does it mean to hold secular texts as needing rituals before they are fully appreciated? Why can't the books themselves reach out to us? Why would they be dependent upon precursor texts?

Now, Lewis was not a Catholic, but Tolkien was. Catholic doctrine says that we must be cleansed of the taint of original sin before we can enter the Christian community. Is this a concept in keeping with Tolkien's Legendarium? Do readers really have to experience a rebirth or forgiveness of error in order to receive Tolkien's story?

Forgive me if I am being pedantic here, but I think that's a trait Tolkien himself would have allowed his readers.

Do you need to get washed up to take a bath?
Worse yet, do you need to clean the water afterwards?
Tolkiens morality is fundamentally different from Christianity in several key pionts, I am very interested in your pedantic enquiry, and would like to try to match your pedantry, but it deserves a topic unto itself. And it should be long indeed. Many pages and everyone should have now, or should begin presently, to form a thoughtful opinion about it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

Do you need to get washed up to take a bath?
Worse yet, do you need to clean the water afterwards?

Very funny, Neithan Tol Turambar. I've never been asked if I am part of the great unwashed before. Usually people just address the points of my posts and my discussion.



Oh, and, by the by, my pedantry pales before that of the illustrious Squatter and the highly English lettered davem and the astute Aiwendil, so perhaps you can set yourself a higher bar.

Wow! You have alot of Posts!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem -

This is an enjoyable thread, and I can definitely point to personal things that I felt "prepared me" to accept and love Tolkien.

The part of Middle-earth I first connected with was Tolkien's depiction of trees and the land, the Shire and Lorien especially. LotR became a crash course in appreciating the natural world. All the rest--characters, medieval texts, and the depths of the Legendarium-- only came later.

The reason I could see and appreciate that natural beauty was that I spent a chunk of my time in the sixties protesting environmental issues and rambling in the countryside through the Appalachian Mountains, along the shores of the Great Lakes, and then in south Wales and the West Country of England. When I read Tolkien, I could feel the grass poking up between my toes.

Yet, to be honest, when I first read this thread and saw the word "pre-baptism", part of me reacted the way Bethberry did.....

So, first of all, could there be texts which in fact prepare us not to understand and accept those of Lewis and Tolkien? Is our reading such that we have to be purged of some of our tastes and familiar favourites before we can appreciate Narnia or Middle-earth? What are these texts? Are there truly sins in reading that must be purified?

I've always had this problem with Lewis. It's not just a matter of one thing preparing us for something else. And it goes beyond Bethberry's question of texts (though that is definitely part of it). I've always felt that Lewis is asking us to strip off a chunk of who we are, in effect to purge some of our "modern" tastes in order to comply with his perceptions of what the ideal reader should be. I get less of that sense from Tolkien. He seems to paint with a wider and less dogmatic brush. But even with Tolkien I sometimes catch just a whiff of that.

I remember once reading a passage --- can't say specifically where it came from -- in which Tolkien and Lewis were talking about themselves as the final "true" remnents of "Western Civilization"....the fact that they were two grand old men who approached texts and ideas from a different vantage point than the readers who would come after them and that meant they had a very different way of looking at things. I'm not even talking about Christianity here, though that could be part of it. Rather they were talking about an acceptance and appreciation for "traditional" western culture and having a certain kind of education. At the time, the discussion rubbed me the wrong way a bit and I still have that image in my head when someone talks about somehow "cleansing " us to prepare for something else.

Probably a crazy reaction. I don't know if anyone else has had a response like that.