Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien

[Lalwendë]

Well for one I don't think making any kind of statement against women's rights in the modern world via the medium of Lord of the Rings would even have been on Tolkien's radar - too often we find political hobbyhorses and latch them onto his work and they just don't prove to be there.

Eowyn's situation and how it came into being is much more interesting than some odious allegory of mysogyny as a matter of fact

How did she come to be there in the first place? She was originally conceived as a romantic foil for Aragorn before Arwen raised her head, and as such I suspect we'd have seen her in a very different role. She remained, however, and assumed a more complex part.

She's a member of a royal household and high status, and second in line to the throne. So the request that she stay behind to govern Rohan is one she might well have expected even if she were male, following the traditional 'heir and a spare' rule of thumb. Yes, it could have been that Eomer would return and take up his own place again, but it was also likely she would have been left a Queen in charge of a realm stripped of menfolk - a huge responsibility to bear. So I don't think that the request she stay behind was a cut and dried case of 'sexism'.

Her sword skills have evidently been gained previously as you just don't pick up a blade one day and instinctively know what to do with it, that only happens in films It's not entirely unfeasible that Rohirrim women knew some basic skills in self defence and basic combat - they would have homesteads to defend after all when their men were on military service. And Tolkien isn't shy of throwing us a few powerful, feisty females when he wants to, so the argument he hated the thought of a 'shield maiden' on principle doesn't cut any ice with me.

But then my final thought about Eowyn is this reason why she decides to go haring off into battle. Ostensibly, it's because of a horrible case of unrequited love for Aragorn and her sense of desperation, but I always see more to it than that. She loves him as an incredibly idealised figure, admires the hope for military success he brings, is stirred by the promise more of victory than of romance.

Eowyn in this view isn't even a woman at all, she's the young Tommy, stirred by news reports and posters of Lord Kitchener into signing up and taking the King's Shilling. Signing up for the trenches despite knowing that death is almost inevitable. She's the boy warrior following the idealised captain over the top despite being ordered to stay behind. The kind of figure Tolkien, sadly, will have recognised all too well.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She's a member of a royal household and high status, and second in line to the throne. So the request that she stay behind to govern Rohan is one she might well have expected even if she were male, following the traditional 'heir and a spare' rule of thumb. Yes, it could have been that Eomer would return and take up his own place again, but it was also likely she would have been left a Queen in charge of a realm stripped of menfolk - a huge responsibility to bear. So I don't think that the request she stay behind was a cut and dried case of 'sexism'.

Good to see you back posting, Lalwendë!

Wasn't there an almost parallel incident to this in the appendixes when a (male) heir to the throne of Gondor was ordered to remain in Osgilath (or Minas Tirith) but came to the battle anyway in disguise, only to get himself killed, along with the king and the rest of his sons?

Anyway, I don't think Eowyn was second or even third in line for the throne. Rohan and Gondor were patriarchal societies and only male descendants were considered heirs proper. She was only a temporary deputy and her case of "sexism" was perhaps not cut and dried, but it was a strong one nonetheless. It's been a while since I read the dialogue between Aragorn and Eowyn but as far as I can remember it's very balanced and hard to call. When Aragorn tells her to stay he makes many good points, but she too comes up with strong counter-arguments.

Also, doing the wrong thing is usually (or always) punished in LotR, but Eowyn is rewarded with both the glory she sought and with the happiness she thought was lost forever. Therefore I don't believe Tolkien had her wilfully ride off to battle in order to make a negative example of it.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Anyway, I don't think Eowyn was second or even third in line for the throne. Rohan and Gondor were patriarchal societies and only male descendants were considered heirs proper. She was only a temporary deputy and her case of "sexism" was perhaps not cut and dried, but it was a strong one nonetheless. It's been a while since I read the dialogue between Aragorn and Eowyn but as far as I can remember it's very balanced and hard to call. When Aragorn tells her to stay he makes many good points, but she too comes up with strong counter-arguments.

There isn't any precedent to judge it from in Rohan, but in Numenor in the better days women took their place as rightful heirs and I can't see Rohan being different if, as it appears, Eowyn was considered capable enough to be trained in the sword to a lesser or greater degree.

Even under primogeniture the daughters of a King never relinquish the right to be heirs, they just take second place to their brothers - which results in interesting conflicts at times - see Matilda Vs Stephen and The Anarchy in the 12th century!

It's a good topic to look up though and see what rules were in place in various kingdoms at different times.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

There isn't any precedent to judge it from in Rohan, but in Numenor in the better days women took their place as rightful heirs and I can't see Rohan being different if, as it appears, Eowyn was considered capable enough to be trained in the sword to a lesser or greater degree.
...
It's a good topic to look up though and see what rules were in place in various kingdoms at different times.

I'm aware that Numenor had reigning queens but that wasn't that an alteration in the laws Aldarion made to avoid having to snuggle with Erendis again while still keeping the sceptre in the family? And wasn't this practice discontinued in Gondor later on? It's hard to believe that there were no kings or stewards who died with only daughters left behind anyway. Yes, this should be checked up, but not by me as I don't have time at present. Shouldn't even be writing this...

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by skip spence

It's hard to believe that there were no kings or stewards who died with only daughters left behind anyway. Yes, this should be checked up

The father-son bloodline of the Stewards did not fail, from Mardil to Denethor. Apparently the Stewards learned from the Kings' mistakes

I agree with Skippy with the points on Aldarion and the ruling Queens. But though in Gondor the female line was disregarded, in Rohan if the female bloodline was sort of next-in-line. Thus we have Helm Hammerhand's nephew Frealaf being king after him; and Eomer after Theoden.

Perhaps the Gondorians shouldn't have been so stupid as to disregard the female line... for princesses could bear potential heirs for their crowned brothers too. That is the thing hard to believe, that the line of Anarion truly ended, i.e., wouldn't a male heir via a female descendant have counted? This for me is sexism, Salic Law-style.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Lindale

The father-son bloodline of the Stewards did not fail, from Mardil to Denethor. Apparently the Stewards learned from the Kings' mistakes

Making sure that the Steward couldn't leave the realm must have helped as well in that regard.

Perhaps the Gondorians shouldn't have been so stupid as to disregard the female line... for princesses could bear potential heirs for their crowned brothers too. That is the thing hard to believe, that the line of Anarion truly ended, i.e., wouldn't a male heir via a female descendant have counted? This for me is sexism, Salic Law-style.

I think this was the exact problem with Arvedui's claim on the Southern Throne. If there had been a stronger tradition of allowing for the female line to count, presumably his claim would have been stronger. However, I think the rejection of that claim was more based on the fact that people in power in the South didn't want a Northern king at this point than any sort of sexism. They used such reasoning to further their own ends, and at a great detriment to themselves.

What is interesting is that even though sometimes Tolkien's societies do not honor the role of females in succession, Tolkien himself does. The line of Elendil came from the line of the Kings of Numenor because of a female (older female from before women were allowed to rule? I don't remember). Heck, I don't even remember the name of Silmarien's husband: she essentially started the line of the Faithful who ended up becoming Kings in Gondor. And again we have the case of Firiel--you could argue that not allowing her blood to validate Arvedui's claim was a result of the corruption of Gondorian society at this point and ended up hurting them in the long run.

Then we also have the interesting case of inheritance in the Shire, where after marriage husband and wife are regarded as one legal unit with joint ownership, allowing the survivor of the two to inherit all legal and economic power regardless of sex.

Bringing this back to Rohan, I think the fact that the people are willing to accept Eowyn as a ruler shows that their society is relatively healthy. True, it's not something that Theoden immediately thinks of (Whom do you trust? The house of Eorl! ...But... I need Eomer in battle!), but other people think of it, put the idea forward, and don't seem to care about the fact that Eowyn is a woman. It's more important that she's part of the right bloodline.

Which means that her dereliction had more to do with personal reasons than any sort of feminism, although of course when you're soul-sick you can use any sort of reasoning to justify something that's wrong and I'm sure some of that reasoning was "they don't want me to come along because I'm a woman!". Well... not really...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

I think this was the exact problem with Arvedui's claim on the Southern Throne. If there had been a stronger tradition of allowing for the female line to count, presumably his claim would have been stronger. However, I think the rejection of that claim was more based on the fact that people in power in the South didn't want a Northern king at this point than any sort of sexism. They used such reasoning to further their own ends, and at a great detriment to themselves..

I'd agree that any prejudice against Arvedui's claim deriving from a female heritage through Fíriel was relatively immaterial to the reason his claim was disallowed. Arvedui didn't rely soley on that as a basis for his claim: he was also a direct descendant of Isildur. The connexion to Gondor through Fíriel was just something that should have strengthened his claim even further.
The argument of Gondor against him appears to be based upon the idea that Isildur had handed off Gondor to Anárion, and Gondor could order things as it liked. Tradition, and probably pride, held sway more than common sense.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

What is interesting is that even though sometimes Tolkien's societies do not honor the role of females in succession, Tolkien himself does. The line of Elendil came from the line of the Kings of Numenor because of a female (older female from before women were allowed to rule? I don't remember). Heck, I don't even remember the name of Silmarien's husband: she essentially started the line of the Faithful who ended up becoming Kings in Gondor.

I don't know the name of Silmarien's husband either. But she was the eldest child of Tar-Elendil, and indeed the apparent beginner of the Lords of Andúnië, of which came Elendil and Isildur. It's rather ironic that Gondor 'forgot' that.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'm aware that Numenor had reigning queens but that wasn't that an alteration in the laws Aldarion made to avoid having to snuggle with Erendis again while still keeping the sceptre in the family? And wasn't this practice discontinued in Gondor later on? It's hard to believe that there were no kings or stewards who died with only daughters left behind anyway. Yes, this should be checked up, but not by me as I don't have time at present. Shouldn't even be writing this...

I've looked up Numenor, and the rule was one of primogeniture until Aldarion changed it so that daughters could inherit, even if they had younger brothers - of course he only had a daughter, Ancalime. Telperien was a Queen with a younger brother, and his child succeeded the childless Queen.

As for Gondor, I can find no instance of a Queen inheriting, as there were always sons. However when it comes to Firiel, she ought to have inherited had women been allowed to do so, as there were no other siblings.

Of course her husband Arvedui made the claim on Gondor but was denied. Maybe his claim was the cause of Firiel being rejected too, we don't know, but it was odd to seek out a fairly distant royal cousin in Gondor to inherit (though it has real world precedent in the choice of George I to succeed Anne, just to avoid having a Catholic inherit!).

He had a blood right to the kingship, though it was rather a late claim! It might be rather like that Aussie bloke who is the bloodline descendant of the Plantagenets via George, Duke of Clarence making a claim on the UK throne - he would have a bloodline right to it but imagine the mayhem it might create!

[Mithalwen]

Elfhelm from the evidence of UT is a pragmatist and read the situation most accurately at the Fords. He does not seem to be the type to be swayed by sentiment or to be a slave to orders when it contradicted his judgement.. he followed Theodred's summons s bypassing the King.

I find Elfhelm one of the fascinating minor characters .. you can get quite a vivid picture from quite a little.

Clearly Elfhelm and Eowyn would have known each other well. He had been marshal (Though not Marshal of the Mark) at Edoras since 3012 when Eowyn was sixteen. With her Uncle increasingly under the malign influence of Saruman via Grima, and her cousin and brother based at Helms Deep and Aldburg respectively as the strongholds of their Marks, it is quite likely that Elfhelm was a confidant and perhaps protector from the unwelcome attentions of Wormtongue.

We know that Erkenbrand was left in military command of Rohan because he was an older man of dignity and authority. Grimbold was his nephew and there seems to be a parity between him and Elfhelm - Elfhelm doens not override him at the Fords, Grimbold does not assume control of the forces of Edoras. If you work on the basis that Erkenbrand was an approximate contemporary of Theoden and Elfhelm a generation younger then they are likely to be mid thirties to mid forties - contemporaries of Theodred which may be why when Grima spread his poison they were inclined to follow his lead rather than his father's. I would think it unlikely that one not of the blood royal would rise to the rank of Marshal much before 30 no matter how able they were so that ties in with the date that Elfhelm took up his post at Edoras.

I have a theory - though not one I can prove that Elfhelm may have been a kinsman of Theodred on his mother's side, The Rohirrim tend to have similar names in their families and since Hild was the sister of Helm I just wondered if Elfhelm might be kin to Elfhild... Not necessarily brother ..if he were the king's brother in law it would surely be mentioned, maybe a cousin. A fanciful idea I know but not totally implausible. In the structure of the story he would then be a kind of foil for Imrahil (another of my beloved minor characters).

To belatedly get back to the point. I think Elfhelm was astute enough to know that what might befall Eowyn at home could be as bad or worse than a battlefield . Maybe he knew she would find a way anyway and so the best thing would be to have her where he could keep an eye on her. Maybe he had some premonition - a disobedience but like so many a necessary one for the eventual success of the quest.

[Lalaith]

With regard to the normalcy or abnormalcy of Eowyn's behaviour...lets not forget one thing. She was not unique, she had a cultural prototype instantly recognisable to readers who knew Norse literature.

This word, shield-maiden, existed for centuries before Tolkien put it in the mouth of Eowyn. The Germanic cultures of northern Europe had shieldmaidens aplenty. I have to say that my response, when I first read the story, was similar to Ibrinidil's...I thought of her as a human being damaged by grief, love and despair, rather than fighting a pre-determined gender role.

But giving this question a purely critical response, I have to assume that Tolkien must really have loved Eowyn as a creation - in the same way that I think Shakespeare loved Beatrice, and grew to love Lear. 'Dernhelm the Young' in his/her glory on the fields of Pelennor is possibly the finest literary moment in the whole of the trilogy, and you can't write like that about a character you don't love.

[Mithalwen]

I think you are right Lalaith... in on of the HoME volumes he decides Aragorn is too old and grim for her. Will go dig it up..I can't remember if Faramir made his unanticipated appearance in the tale before or after.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

There is sexism in Rohan, as there is everywhere, and Eowyn is right to call it out. Indeed, it is in part the male-centric nature of Rohirric society that fuels her hopelessness in the first place. .

I would not disagree with any of this post other that to qualify the everywhere probably does not include Lorien... but it does make me wonder if the fact that the rulers of Gondor and Rohan and their heirs are all "Men without women" intensifies the effect. Obviously Rohan is a male centric culture but even the domestic environment is overwhelmingly male. There are no doubt women around but not perhaps ones Eowyn can truly confide in - no mother, no sister (in-law), no aunt, no female cousin or cousin's wife. It may have made no difference if Rohan had still had a queen but many queens consort in our own history have managed to wield a great deal of power indirectly. Eowyn has no positive female role models. She is often decribed in very similar terms to Galadriel who does have power - though also limited.

I think it reinforces the atmosphere of futility and despair that neither Theodred or Boromir at forty had done their duty by posterity and ensured the succession.
I remember something that in latter days the lords of Gondor thought more of their ancestors than their sons (a trend bucked by Imrahil given four children and a grandson as a good example to the others perhaps ).

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

... but it does make me wonder if the fact that the rulers of Gondor and Rohan and their heirs are all "Men without women" intensifies the effect. Obviously Rohan is a male centric culture but even the domestic environment is overwhelmingly male. There are no doubt women around but not perhaps ones Eowyn can truly confide in - no mother, no sister (in-law), no aunt, no female cousin or cousin's wife. It may have made no difference if Rohan had still had a queen but many queens consort in our own history have managed to wield a great deal of power indirectly. Eowyn has no positive female role models. She is often decribed in very similar terms to Galadriel who does have power - though also limited.

I agree with all of this, except perhaps about Galadriel. Galadriel seems to be an example of an empowered woman, beyond almost anybody else (she certainly shows up her husband by showing both better knowledge of what was going on when the Fellowship arrived, and also a more noble sympathy for the people involved, for example, Gimli)...

The situation in Rohan at the time of the story is probably an extreme case, both because Rohan seems to be a very male-dominated, military oriented culture, but also because there are no female role models around. While Eowyn failed to fulfill her obligations as ruler of Rohan in the absence of Theoden and Eomer (and as some have pointed out, this is a significant job, especially if the battle at Gondor had been lost), I cannot help feeling that she had some kind of premonition that she had a role to play in the battle. In other words, it wasn't just a matter of wanting to be there in the thick of the battle. The role of course is the defeat of the Witch King, which is a pivotal part of the battle that she was in some way destined to play a part. Merry also fulfills a destiny here as well, if somewhat more reluctantly.

While Eowyn's change of heart later might(?) be viewed as just coming around to the view that it might not be so bad to be somebody's wife, I also cannot help feeling that she also realized that she had played the historic role (defeating the WK) that she was destined for. I suspect that she had no regrets about her decision to join the battle before the Gates of Minas Tirith...

[Mithalwen]

Ah I knew I should have qualified the Galadriel comment - the limitation I refer to is not due to her gender specifically but at the time of the War of the rings (the point when the time of the elves is ending) perhaps to her Elvishness. She has her power in her small realm, and can withstand as long as the Dark lord himself does not go there. Hers is a passive strength - able to resist the growing darkness but not challenge openly. She dare not take the one ring. In this she is no different to the male leaders of her people ..Elrond, Cirdan. Individual elves have awesome power but they are few and against the overwhelming forces of Sauron they are not enough "Even if you chose for us an elf lord such as Glorfindel..." . So mighty though Galadriel be (and she and Eowyn and Idril are my favourite female characters - Tolkien may have deified the brunettes but it is the blondes who have spirit, leadership qualities and initiative!) I do wonder if Lorien became a hutch as much as Eowyn's bower.

[ElanorFB]

I think Tolkien and women are somewhat difficult. But he makes up for it with Eowyn and Galadriel. Galadriel is strong and obviously beautiful and in control in her relationship.

With Eowyn, yes she pines for Aragorn, but hey, she liked him. I think that's a fair reaction without having to be dependent on men.

[Faramir Jones]

Here's an interesting comment Tolkien made about Eowyn, in a letter of around 1963:

Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.

(Letters, Letter 244.)

As has been said, she was presumably trained on how to fight, but expected to do so only defensively, something for which there was historical precedent among the Rohirrim's ancestors.

Tolkien had had some military training, but did not see himself as becoming a professional soldier. As we know, however, he and so many other young men, quite civilian, became servicemen due to World War I.

Tolkien said that he was not a 'good officer', and said that the character of Faramir was the character in LotR most like him, but with far more courage. Like him, two of his sons became servicemen, this time due to World War II.

One can see a resemblance between Eowyn and Tolkien's generation, as well as that of his sons'. Her desire to be 'a shieldmaiden no longer' seems similar to that of many servicemen like Tolkien and later his sons, who wanted to leave soldiering behind now that the war was won, and get on with their disrupted civilian lives. It's no more different than Sam Gamgee, Merry Brandybuck, and Pippin Took after they returned to the Shire, getting back to ordinary, civilian life, marrying and having families.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Here's an interesting comment Tolkien made about Eowyn, in a letter of around 1963:

Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.

(Letters, Letter 244.)

As has been said, she was presumably trained on how to fight, but expected to do so only defensively, something for which there was historical precedent among the Rohirrim's ancestors.

Tolkien had had some military training, but did not see himself as becoming a professional soldier. As we know, however, he and so many other young men, quite civilian, became servicemen due to World War I.

Tolkien said that he was not a 'good officer', and said that the character of Faramir was the character in LotR most like him, but with far more courage. Like him, two of his sons became servicemen, this time due to World War II.

One can see a resemblance between Eowyn and Tolkien's generation, as well as that of his sons'. Her desire to be 'a shieldmaiden no longer' seems similar to that of many servicemen like Tolkien and later his sons, who wanted to leave soldiering behind now that the war was won, and get on with their disrupted civilian lives. It's no more different than Sam Gamgee, Merry Brandybuck, and Pippin Took after they returned to the Shire, getting back to ordinary, civilian life, marrying and having families.

I agree, Eowyn was very much like the 'Tommy', idealising the fight and the struggle, and even idealising the Captain she followed. And afterwards, in the shocking light of day, having survived, keen to get straight back to an ordinary life.

It's also true that Faramir is very much like the reality of the men who fought in WWII. He resigned himself to his Duty, he did his duty to the very best of his ability, but he did not relish it and he was pleased to be released of it, though still retaining pride in having taken his part.

It's interesting how Faramir wants to make a 'garden' of Ithilien and Eowyn also desires this kind of life:

'I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun,' she said; 'and behold! the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.' And again she looked at Faramir. 'No longer do I desire to be a queen,' she said.

Then Faramir laughed merrily. 'That is well,' he said; 'for I am not a king. Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes.'

Compare that with much of the Art produced during and following the Great War, so much of it infused with this emotional sense of loss and longing for a pastoral England that if it had not already gone, was fast going. Vaughan Williams wrote his Pastoral Symphony and revised Fantasia on a Theme by Tallis; Elgar's Cello Concerto; Holst's Planets Suite; Stanley Spencer's murals; and of course, Tolkien's very earliest writings. I could probably gather up some more examples, because I've been looking into this lately...

There was also the Modernist approach of course, but many people were also busily creating elegiac, more backwards looking pieces of music, art and literature. So Faramir and Eowyn wishing to leave the memory of war behind isn't unusual, and in fact it's what their creator did.

[davem]

It was a bayonet-school of instruction, and "O. C. Bayonets"--Col.
Ronald Campbell--was giving a little demonstration. It was a curiously
interesting form of exercise. It was as though the primitive nature in
man, which had been sleeping through the centuries, was suddenly
awakened in the souls of these cockney soldier--boys. They made sudden
jabs at one another fiercely and with savage grimaces, leaped at men
standing with their backs turned, who wheeled round sharply, and
crossed bayonets, and taunted the attackers. Then they lunged at the
hanging sacks, stabbing them where the red circles were painted. These
inanimate things became revoltingly lifelike as they jerked to and
fro, and the bayonet men seemed enraged with them. One fell from the
rope, and a boy sprang at it, dug his bayonet in, put his foot on the
prostrate thing to get a purchase for the bayonet, which he lugged out
again, and then kicked the sack.

"That's what I like to see," said an officer. "There's a fine
fighting-spirit in that lad. He'll kill plenty of Germans before he's
done."

Col. Ronald Campbell was a great lecturer on bayonet exercise. He
curdled the blood of boys with his eloquence on the method of attack
to pierce liver and lights and kidneys of the enemy. He made their
eyes bulge out of their heads, fired them with blood-lust, stoked up
hatred of Germans--all in a quiet, earnest, persuasive voice, and a
sense of latent power and passion in him. He told funny stories--one,
famous in the army, called "Where's 'Arry?"

It was the story of an attack on German trenches in which a crowd of
Germans were captured in a dugout. The sergeant had been told to blood
his men, and during the killing he turned round and asked, "Where's
'Arry? . . . 'Arry 'asn't 'ad a go yet."

'Arry was a timid boy, who shrank from butcher's work, but he was
called up and given his man to kill. And after that 'Arry was like a
man-eating tiger in his desire for German blood.

He used another illustration in his bayonet lectures. "You may meet a
German who says, 'Mercy! I have ten children.' . . . Kill him! He
might have ten more." http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenb...02/nicbt10.htm

Let's not forget that one of the main reasons for war is that a great many people get off on it...... (or that Eowyn says she will no longer "take joy only in the songs of slaying."

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by davem

Let's not forget that one of the main reasons for war is that a great many people get off on it...... (or that Eowyn says she will no longer "take joy only in the songs of slaying."

This could have been part of what motivated in Eowyn, but I think this is also what she got over...

More important for her in the end was to avoid

'A cage', she said. 'To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.'

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have a theory - though not one I can prove that Elfhelm may have been a kinsman of Theodred on his mother's side, The Rohirrim tend to have similar names in their families and since Hild was the sister of Helm I just wondered if Elfhelm might be kin to Elfhild... Not necessarily brother ..if he were the king's brother in law it would surely be mentioned, maybe a cousin. A fanciful idea I know but not totally implausible. In the structure of the story he would then be a kind of foil for Imrahil (another of my beloved minor characters).

The recent thread on names has got me thinking something, do you think it is possible that one of the reasons Eowyn chose the name "Durnhelm" was that because of the simlilarity of names tradtion it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

The recent thread on names has got me thinking something, do you think it is possible that one of the reasons Eowyn chose the name "Durnhelm" was that because of the simlilarity of names tradtion it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

Well, I think it's the last thing you said - "helm" is just a common ending. There have been probably dozens of soldiers in the muster who had names like Windhelm or Torthelm and nobody was asking them if they are not perchance the Marshal's cousins. It would be about the same thing as if you kept asking every Charlie whether he is not perchance related to the Prince of Wales. It would not have occured to anybody to even think about that.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

I think her choice may have been a tribute to him or a joke but I think the text makes it pretty clear that Elfhelm's men know exactly who Dernhelm was - it speaks of "an understanding"between them. Also presumably since Elfhelm was the Marshal based at Edoras, his eored would also have been and known Eowyn. Tolkien's names are seldom without significance. There aren't really enough Rohirric names to get a definitive pattern but it may be more than coincidence that the Rohan's great generals Elfhelm and Erkenbrand "Precious Sword") have suitably military names whereas the humble errand rider is Ceorl. The element Theod- may have only been used in the Royal house (or by very aspirational parents!).

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

There is also an issue with Eowyn that hasn't been explored as much as it should. Her uncle made her regent of the kingdom in his absence and that of her brother. Ruling Rohan in the place of Theoden was, I'm sure, a serious responsibility. (I'm presuming here that she exercised real power, and wasn't a nominal regent, with an 'advisor' or 'advisors' exercising the real power.)

Due to this, I've had an issue over the last few years with her deserting her post as regent to fight in Gondor.

What I'm wondering is:

How did she get away with it at all? She was left behind in order to be the acting ruler of Rohan - but she disappeared. How was she not instantly missed by those left behind in Edoras? Why did someone not immediately ride at full speed after Theoden to inform him that the Lady Eowyn was missing?

In any case, what did the people of Rohan think when their ruler went missing? Any thoughts?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

What I'm wondering is:

How did she get away with it at all? She was left behind in order to be the acting ruler of Rohan - but she disappeared. How was she not instantly missed by those left behind in Edoras? Why did someone not immediately ride at full speed after Theoden to inform him that the Lady Eowyn was missing?

In any case, what did the people of Rohan think when their ruler went missing? Any thoughts?

Presumably Éowyn would have designated someone before she left to stand in for her. Maybe the former condition of Théoden under the influence of Wormtongue was known to the general population in Rohan, and thus Éowyn's forced role as a nursemaid was known also. In that case, the people could well have taken pity on her, and being a fairly warlike people, understood her desire to stand or fall in battle. Perhaps the severity of the situation too lent her some degree of leeway from the people. They were well aware the host of Théoden stood a real chance of not returning, and it would be only a matter of time before they all were rooted out and enslaved. I don't think they would have wished the House of Eorl to fall to that personally.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lush

I personally don't like the fact that she became a healer, but I also like her words to Aragorn, at the end. Tolkien didn't quite tie her up with a pretty little bow.

Lush m'dear, miss you, long time no see.

Quick questions only partway thru the thread: When the war is over, what's a royal sheildmaiden to do? And King Eomer is wise to her now. If there are skirmishes with leftover orcs on the border, we'll send some good lads to handle it, but as for you, sis, Sorry-- put the horse back in the barn.

And once she moves to Gondor, do you really think Faramir would watch and shrug as she armed and rode off?

IMO, being a healer is self-sacrificial, not for the timid, and requires courage. It's a paradigm shift. Aragorn, after the battle, put in his time as a healer, and it was an undeniable sign of royalty and majesty.

[Mithalwen]

Erkenbrand was left in military charge. I suspect Elfhelm tipped him the wink.

[mark12_30]

Or, Aragorn and the topic of unpraised valour

This discussion continues to weigh on my mind:

‘A time may come soon,’ said he, ‘when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.’

And she answered: ‘All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. ’

I grant the weight of Eowyn's words;. "Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?"

But neither do I disagree with what Aragorn said, nor feel that he had no right to say it.

From The Council of Elrond:

‘If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare to tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dúnedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave?

‘And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. “Strider” I am to one fat man who lives within a day’s march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred, while the years have lengthened and the grass has grown.'

And again:

From "Strider":

‘It would take more than a few days, or weeks, or years, of wandering in the Wild to make you look like Strider,’ he answered. ‘And you would die first, unless you are made of sterner stuff than you look to be.’

On his behalf, Aragorn had every right, I think, to talk about "valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds .... Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised."

[Lindale]

A very quick thought regarding feminism, Eowyn, Erendis, and women-left-at-home-when-men-go-to-war:

As mark notes from the book: ‘All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. ’

And as Erendis says to Ancalime: 'Thus it is, Ancalime, and we cannot alter it. For men fashioned Numenor: men, those heroes of old that they sing of; of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain. Numenor was to be a rest after war. But if they were weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war. Thus it is; and we are set here among them. But we need not assent. If we love Numenor also, let us enjoy it before they ruin it. We also are daughters of the great, and we have wills and courage of our own. Therefore do not bend, Ancalime. Once bend a little, and they will bend you further until you are bowed down. Sink your roots into the rock, and face the wind, though it blow away all your leaves.'

Hopelessness seemed to be the lot of women for ages, IRL and in Tolkien, but to be put that way by two, well, aristocratic women but from different times... These two just fought it. Perhaps that's why they are so noteworthy: very few women in Tolkien achieve so much. Sometimes I think Erendis seems stronger, because she interpellates Ancalime so strongly with this ideology, but loses her daughter's love, which is all she has that is worthwhile; whereas Eowyn lives to see her moment of glory realized after killing the Witch-King. On the other hand, I too do not like Eowyn becoming a healer... Not that I think healers don't have a special place in their societies, but well, aren't women healers allowed in Minas Tirith but they never are soldiers? So it's still a second-level designation. Eowyn was put in her 'proper' place--ideologically (she will be a shield-maiden no longer) and literally (she retires from military service forever).

[Mister Underhill]

One thing that comes up for me as I read the oft-repeated expressions of disappointment in the fact that Éowyn lays down her blade and becomes a healer is that it somehow seems upside down. Shouldn't we feel happy for her (or for any character, regardless of gender) who is able to find peace and love and retire from death and slaying? I guess maybe this is the reason why endings to fantasy stories, or I guess any story, are often a little bittersweet, even if they're happy endings. We'd feel the same way if Indiana Jones ever hung up his whip on his study wall, or if Conan ever decided to rule from his throne-room and leave the slaying to his minions. I'm not sure this has anything to do with sexism though, and maybe more to do with what we get out of the adventures and exploits of the characters that we identify with and fantasize about being.

Another thing I wonder about is how many people in Middle-earth are really professional warriors anyway. My sense is, not that many. No doubt Gondor has a standing army given their geography. But elsewhere, it seems that battle is something that is engaged in when it's necessary, not as a matter of course, and being a warrior is just something that you do in addition to whatever else it is that you do. In a world at war, more men take up the warrior role, sure, but what becomes of the warrior when the war is over? The fate of those stuck in the warrior sphere seems lonely and bitter indeed. Not that bitter loneliness doesn't have its attractions.

I'm reminded of the end of John Ford's The Searchers -- as the rest of the family heads inside the homestead and the camera pulls back through the door, Ethan, the John Wayne character, remains outside, isolated, tragic. He turns and walks away as the door closes. A warrior who is always off to new adventures is also always turning away from home and hearth and family.

Another thought -- the flip side of the expectation that women will stay home and mourn their dead is the expectation that men will take up arms and fight, and die. The social pressure on men to be warriors can be incredible, as Tolkien himself knew full well. So what if you're a sensitive young man, more given to poetry and learning than the martial arts? Well, you take up arms anyway and do your duty, as you can hardly do otherwise without suffering the censure of society. I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Faramir was the character with whom he most closely identified, and I get the sense that it's in this regard too. Faramir doesn't relish his role as warrior, and he can't wait to get back to less violent pursuits when the war is over. Both men and women can be victims of the pressures and expectations exerted by their culture.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Another thought -- the flip side of the expectation that women will stay home and mourn their dead is the expectation that men will take up arms and fight, and die. The social pressure on men to be warriors can be incredible, as Tolkien himself knew full well. So what if you're a sensitive young man, more given to poetry and learning than the marshal arts? Well, you take up arms anyway and do your duty, as you can hardly do otherwise without suffering the censure of society. I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Faramir was the character with whom he most closely identified, and I get the sense that it's in this regard too. Faramir doesn't relish his role as warrior, and he can't wait to get back to less violent pursuits when the war is over. Both men and women can be victims of the pressures and expectations exerted by their culture.

That's a very good point, I think, and a nice new perspective.
There are examples of 'reluctant (male) warriors' in the books, who were unable to perform the duty required of them as men. The host of the West that were to act as cannon-fodder for Sauron's armies to give the Ring-bearer a chance had some.

So time and the hopless journey wore away. Upon the fourth day from the Cross-roads and the sixth from Minas Tirith they came at last to the end of the living lands, and began to pass into the desolation that lay before the gates of the pass of Cirith Gorgor; and they could decry the marshes and the desert that stretched north and west to the Emyn Muil. So desolate were those places and so deep the horror that lay on them that some of the host were unmanned, and they could neither walk nor ride further north.

ROTK The Black Gate Opens

And much earlier in ME history, there was the sad plight of the lord of Brethil, Brandir son of Handir. With a lame leg which left him unable to perform as a warrior, and having a gentle temperament as well, he was publicy humiliated by his kinsman, Dorlas.

"Hearken, Men of Brethil, it is now well seen that for the evil of our times the counsels of Brandir were vain. There is no escape by hiding. Will none of you take the place of the son of Handir, that the House of Haleth be not put to shame?

Unfinished Tales Narn i Hîn Húrin

Plainly not every woman is a housemaid or a healer by desire, but neither is every man a fighter, though both have pressure to perform certain duties.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mr Underhill

So what if you're a sensitive young man, more given to poetry and learning than the marshal arts? Well, you take up arms anyway and do your duty, as you can hardly do otherwise without suffering the censure of society. I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Faramir was the character with whom he most closely identified, and I get the sense that it's in this regard too. Faramir doesn't relish his role as warrior, and he can't wait to get back to less violent pursuits when the war is over. Both men and women can be victims of the pressures and expectations exerted by their culture.

I think I like this point best, as it shows how Faramir, far from being merely 'second best' for Éowyn, actually was a perfect match for her - a man who, having had a similar role problem, only from the opposite direction, could understand and complement her better than even Aragorn. I hadn't seen their marriage in this light before, but it makes perfect sense now.

[McCaber]

For me, this issue doesn't come down to Eowyn following her proscribed gender roles as it does her choosing optimism and hope over grim fate.

If "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer," Eowyn should feel no shame in traveling that same road. There should be no stigma in laying down the instruments of death and spreading life and healing. After the War that was what was needed most, and it's still part of her duty as nobility to care for those under her. She just used nonviolent means to do it, as did Faramir.

[Galadriel]

I really don't think so. I sort of agree with the Faramir Chastising Her bit, because I think, like many feminists (like myself), she gets too defensive. Personally, I feel Faramir was right in telling her to calm down.
But don't forget, her name still goes down in history as the person who killed the Witch-king.
And I think Tolkien favoured women at the end of the day.

[Erendis]

Just a few quick thoughts on the matter:

Personally,although I respected and admired Eowyn's valor in the battlefield,I disliked her choise because it was an outcome of a broken heart in the way of since she cannot get what she whants,then she shall get nothing.And then,some days after,she decides to become a housewife and healer.

I do not think that this choice has something to do that much with feminism as with a general change of era.Middle-Earth was stepping from a time of war,blood and death to a new age of re-creation,rebuilding and healing.So,this is a time for healers and peace-makers,more mild-tempered characters like Faramir and Arwen,not warriors.Even Aragorn,who is introduced as the ultimate warriorand is by that idealised for Eowyn, appears to embrasse the role of the healer with much more joy than that of the warlord.Even if Eowyn remained a glorious,proud and alone Shield Maiden,she might have probably ended like Erendis,regretting for her stubbornes,bittered and wanting to take a last taste of the life she lost.

And concerning the stay-behind-unpraised by Aragorn...

If we see this statement from a different point of view,doesn't it reffer to the Rangers of the North in a way too?Weren't they a short of left-behind defenders of the North,whose great deeds were not praised as those of an army with shinny armors and shields,but even worse than women,they were treated as scoundrels and inhonoured?

As for some who accusse him of being the sexist warrrior due to that quote,do they really think it?With a more carefull observation to the story of his rising in power,he was not only motivated by Arwen,but also helped,if not pushed.A banner and a claim of origins can be doubted,but when it comes to the prophesy of the Elfstone and the chosen by the people name,things afe way more secure.
Now seriously,do you think that after all these political moovements would that woman would accept to become a breeding and sewind machine?Or that a man with Aragorn's wisdom would not make use of such potential?

[Orofarne]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw,
he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting
people, no doubt also birthers and deathers.

Thankyouthankyouthankyou! Mr. Washington is extremely dreadful, and obviously needs to read the books.
Also, Eowyn is a rather minor character in the books, and I really don't think that Tolkien was remarking on feminism, more on war. Didn't we keep hearing about how Faramir is something of a pacifist, and how the hobbits really didnt like seeing men kill one another? Eowyn was just another handy character to drive that point home, and she was so angry at being left to fester with the noncombatants while her uncle went to die, that she came too. After being very heroic, her renouncement of the warrior's trade is only another way of saying that war is bad. Besides, Tolkien himself fought in WWI, so War Is Bad was probably ground into his skin along with the blood and muck he accumulated in the trenches.

[glrii]

Everyone realizes that Worm Tongue had placed a spell on King Théoden to make him feel old and take away his hope, and that Gandalf broke that spell allowing him to return to health. What I also noticed are the words of Gandalf in the houses of healing about Eowyn. Gandalf said, Think you that Worm tongue had poison only for Théoden’s ears. Gandalf is saying, worm tongue had also placed a spell on Eowyn to make her feel and act the way she did. The spell was broken not by Gandalf but by the love of Faramir. That is why she had the change of heart at the end. She may have been unhappy with her role, but her depression, abandonment of her post and suicidal tendencies were from Worm Tongue’s spell.

[Galadriel55]

I don't think that Elfhelm knew that Dernhelm was Eowyn, but he did know about Merry. I don't know how Eowyn convinced hi to keep quiet about Merry, but I'm quite sure that she did not reveal herself. I've thought of her commanding Elfhelm to keep silent, but then it says that all the troops seeed not to notice Merry. It would be a bit hard to keep hundreds of people fro gossip that would sooner or later reach Theoden's ears.
About Eowyn's feminism. It is not bad; she has it and had it all along. It was just shoved into her deepest corner and replaced by dreas of warriors. This was sharpened by the years that she spent looking after Theoden and feeling her helplesness and lack of power. In a way, she was overcoe and blinded by that dream. When she talked to Faramir, he woke the other nature in her. It is a mistake to call it feminism, because it is also present in Faramir and other people. It is more like the desire to preserve and create rather than destroy and kill. It is not the kitchen that Eowyn returns to, it's just a different for of freedom.
Eowyn is not THE woman, as Tolkien views them. Look at Arwen, Galadriel, Rosie, and Goldberry! They are totally different, by character, by their "role in the family" and their idea of what they could or should be.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I've thought of her commanding Elfhelm to keep silent, but then it says that all the troops seeed not to notice Merry. It would be a bit hard to keep hundreds of people fro gossip that would sooner or later reach Theoden's ears.

Merry didn’t know that Derhelm was Éowyn until she revealed herself before the Nazgûl. But it might be easier to keep her identity secret from Merry than from the other riders, most of whom presumably knew one another and would be curious about this new addition to their éored.

Tolkien does not say how the secret was kept, but it seems to me most likely that Elfhelm had commanded his troops not to notice Merry. But why would he command this, presumably at Éowyn’s word, if he had not had some reason to trust and obey Éowyn? It is simplest for me to imagine that he knew who she was and obeyed her for that reason, perhaps in return for some previous favour she had done him. Éowyn would have been well known to him to be a capable shieldmaiden and fighter and so Elfhelm ordered his men not to notice either Éowyn or Merry and they obeyed.

Possibly some of Elfhelm’s men also recognized her, but said nothing. And so, because they said nothing, no word of Éowyn’s presence reached Théoden.

But these are only my imaginings about a matter of which Tolkien does not write and I might be wrong. Merry himself may never thought to have asked, or may not have told what he later found out to Frodo, or Frodo may not have written it down, or Tolkien may be imagined not to have translated it.

It is a mistake to call it feminism, because it is also present in Faramir and other people. It is more like the desire to preserve and create rather than destroy and kill. It is not the kitchen that Eowyn returns to, it's just a different for of freedom.

Indeed! While being a shieldmaiden was not a common thing among the Rohirrim, it was acceptable. Like as not there were other shieldmaidens among the Rohirrim riders on the journey to Gondor, though Tolkien does not mention them.

[Lotrelf]

No, no. Tolkien portrayal of Eowyn is, I believe, the strongest one. When she confronts Witch King she not only defies him, but KILLS him. This Shows she does not have to be with someone to survive. When she accepts Faramir's love, she has accepted her destiny. She, instead of giving into despair and sorrow chooses to live. Tolkien represents Arwen, Goldberry and Galadriel as source of wisdom and eternal beauty. Certainly nothing like contempt here. Eowyn is the representative of modern woman, IMO, and she is just perfect and one of my most favorite characters.

[Andsigil]

Tolkien was no anti-feminist.

He simply portrayed a different ideal of feminism- one that didn't reinforce the myth of 115lb females destroying a dozen 200lb professional warriors in hand-to-hand combat.