The Consequences of the Events at Mount Doom

[Arathiriel]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but I had a thought the other night about Frodo's actions at Mount Doom, specifically when he said the following:

'I have come,' he said. 'But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!'

Now my question is: If Frodo hadn't said what he did there, and if he hadn't claimed the Ring as his own, would he still have had to leave ME for Valinor? I mean would his wounds and all the darkness he confronted - would it have haunted him still so deeply had he casted the Ring into the Cracks of Doom of his own free will?

I am not so sure after rereading this quote from Gandalf in "Thw Shadow of the Past" in the FOTR:

'As long as you never used it, I did not think that the Ring would have any lasting effect on you, not for evil, not at any rate for a very long time.'

So I wonder was Frodo's pain and anguish he felt before he left for the Blessed Realm, a consequence for his one moment of weakness and his inability to destroy the Ring when the time came?

Had he just casted the Ring into the Cracks of Mount Doom, could he have returned to his life in the Shire without being haunted and in pain? Could he have had a 'normal' life there in the Shire instead of having to leave?

What's your opinions on this?

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]

[Nils]

His pain was caused by the wound of the morgul knife, not the ring. His actions at Mt. Doom were meaningless. Besides, Gandalf already knew that Frodo was incapable of casting the ring into Mt. Doom.

Frodo couldn't even throw it into the fire place in the Shire. No creature in Middle Earth could willingly cast the One Ring into Mt. Doom. It was only by 'chance' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] was the ring able to be destroyed.

[Guildo]

Hmmm well lets see where do i begin, First of all Bilbo had the ring much longer than froso but ofcourse never knew its true power, Sam on the other hand had the ring for a shorter time than Frodo and knew its power and for a short time was effected, but to my admirance prevaled against it, and Sam eventualy went to Valinor as well. i think the fact that frodo left was more about all he had ever loved (Besides of course Merry Peppin Aragorn)(Lets not leave out Sam Legolas and Gimli but they eventualy ended up there) ....Left to valinor with him.
But for the most part i think Frodo was very confused at the end but did what his heart told him, it didnt realy have anything to do with the ring i think this choice was more personal and in the end the right choice.

[ilon]

If you wouldn't give it much thought,
he was affected by the ring's power,
not very strong as he was then.

But if you would give it much attention,
we need a lot of time.

This post is short, yes, but newbies will be newbies. Sorry.

[Evenstar1]

Welcome to the Downs, ilon and nils!

If Frodo hadn't said what he did there, and if he hadn't claimed the Ring as his own, would he still have had to leave ME for Valinor?

I think, rather, that he went to Valinor in spite of his weakness, not because of it.

Had he just casted the Ring into the Cracks of Mount Doom, could he have returned to his life in the Shire without being haunted and in pain? Could he have had a 'normal' life there in the Shire instead of having to leave?

I think the morgul blade wound, as nils mentioned, was part of the extended pain Frodo felt. But I also think the sheer burden of bearing the Ring -- the physical/mental/spiritual trauma that it put him through as the primary Ringbearer at the height of Sauron's powers -- was something that would have prevented him from any semblance of a 'normal' life, regardless of his moment of weakness. So yes, he "had" to leave the Shire, but it was for reasons of priviledge, not punishment.

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ]

[Arathiriel]

I am not trying to suggest that going to the West was a punishment and I don't think I am conveying what I was thinking very clearly when I posted this....

I am not going to try at this time of night either to gather my thoughts...

I will try to post again tomorrow after I have had some rest and see if I can't convey what I was thinking...

[ainur]

Think of the end of the novel "1984." The one thing that Winston Smith cannot abide is rats. Yet he is forced to sit with his head in a cage of rats until he says "they should do it to her!" (I'm not sure of that quote, it's been a long time since I read it.) He is referring to the woman he loves. It is the one thing the government of that world was waiting for. After that, he can be trusted. He will do what he is told. He was willing to say anything to get away from those rats. Even betray the only thing of any worth he found in his world.
Now think of Frodo doing the one thing that he knew was the most evil thing he could do--claiming the ring for his own. Everything else in his world changes. Everything. Sam is no longer his dearest friend. The Shire has no worth to him. Only the Ring matters. It is his!
I think that if he had simply cast it into the fire, he would have stayed in the Shire until the end of his days. All of his wounds would have been healed in time. It was that one choice of claiming the ring for his own that forced him to give it all up and leave across the sea. It was his eternal guilt that needed healing in Valinor, not some mere knife wound or spider sting. They were just reminders of who he betrayed when he claimed the Ring for his own--his new king and his dearest friend (each in their own way.)
I wonder--did he meet Gollum in the house of Mandos after he got to the Blessed Realm? Did they forgive each other? Was their first conversation awkward? or did they become fast friends, familiars, with a knowing smile for what the other has been through?

[Nils]

Do I see some revisionist beliefs in your post ainur?

[Frodo Baggins]

Excuse me, but is there any proff that Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo ever went to the Halls of Mandos? Or did they still life forever ater coming to Valinor?

[Nils]

Only Eru can take away his gift. Do Elves become mortal simply because they live in the mortal lands?

Why should it work any different going the other way?

[ainur]

Everyone visits Mandos eventually, if only for a little while (with the likely exceptions of Sauron and Saruman.)

[Nils]

What book is that in?

[Arathiriel]

Excuse me, but is there any proff that Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo ever went to the Halls of Mandos? Or did they still life forever ater coming to Valinor?

Uh, I don't think Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam became immortal like the Elves just because they were all allowed to go and to live in the Blessed Realm...

Also remember Gimli also came to the West with Legolas and I too doubt he became as in immortal as his Elven friends were...

I have posted about this very subject elsewhere and a friend on a list pointed out something that was in along the lines I was thinking when I originally posted on this subject. I am not going to directly quote this friend here since I won't have his permission but I will post the gist of it:

in his post, my friend said that Tolkien said in his letters after LOTR that Frodo failed in his quest, failed to destroy the Ring, and that was the source of his pain afterwards. Because he had claimed the Ring for himself - well after it was destroyed Frodo could never be free of his longing for the Ring. Remember this quote from The Grey Havens in the RoTK:

'It is gone forever, and now all is dark and empty.'

But he also noted that Tolkien said because Frodo had show pity to Gollum, he was given a sort of "grace", as he didn't judge Gollum for the same weakness he himself later showed, and so he escaped the flames with everything but one of the finger's of his right hand.

It was after this after this Frodo got to go to the West for healing...

Incidentially, you can find all of this in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien - a book I intend to read at some point in the very near future!

Believe me when I posted originally I didn't mean to imply that going to Valinor was a punishment but rather I meant it was because of what happened at Mount Doom Frodo had to go into the West to be healed because he was haunted by his guilt over what happened at Mount Doom...

Gosh, but I love this story!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ainur]

I was sure I read that at some time, but now that I look through my books, albeit briefly, I don't find any evidence to support the theory of everyone going to Mandos at least for a time. I apologize for any confusion it may have caused.
At least it would make a great fan-fic. Gollum and Frodo meeting without the Ring between them anymore. Potentially very moving.

I guess we were posting at the same time. I also didn't mean to imply that sailing west was punishment. Some wounds heal more easily than others. I believe that Frodo's claim on the Ring, or actually the subsequent guilt he felt, was the only wound he suffered that could not find healing in Middle Earth. He had to seek the West to feel whole again.

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: ainur ]

[Nar]

Good question, Arathiriel, and good post, ainur. Mortals pass through the Halls of Mandos on their way to whatever the 'gift of man' entails beyond the limits of Arda. Elves go to the Halls until they are healed, and are then returned to life in Valinor. Hobbits are a variety of Man, and therefore mortals. Tolkien wrote something about those mortals who were allowed to go across the sea and said they would not fade or age there and would be able to choose when they were ready to accept the gift and go on, much as Aragorn did. Then they would lie down and sleep, and pass away. Tales of Tol Eressea is an excellent fan-fiction which touches on this in that section of the Barrowdowns --By Mithadan, I believe.

I had the same thoughts about Smeagol after death that you did, ainur. I posted a question on The Judgement of Smeagol (which you can find by doing a search), asking whether he passed through Mandos and on and I ended up doing a post in which Bilbo showed up there and guided Smeagol on to whatever happens next. (Frodo was still back with Sam in my post). I'd like to think Smeagol managed to accept the gift and didn't just linger on as a ghost. That can happen to elves who die and refuse the summons and I believe it can happen to men (hobbits) also.

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[elfling]

After reading the JRRT quote about frodo I guess the guilt or the power the ring had over him must have been alot of the reason for Frodo's choosing to leave the Shire and the reason he couldn't enjoy his victory.
I felt that it wasn't a suprise that he couldn't destroy the ring. Bilbo had it for a long time but it appeared to be more powerfull due to Saran's looking for it then it ever was when Bilbo had it. Destroying it after all he went through with it seemed impossible to me , it had become so powerfull and had such a hold on him (Frodo) in the end. I had originally thought it was just the toll of his wounds(physical) and all the emotional and mental trauma he went through that lead frodo to leave ME. Kind of reminds me of Moses. He got to see the Promised Land but not to enjoy it due to his failures just as Frodo-he got to save the Shire but couldn't stay due to his inability to destroy the Ring.

[Westerly Wizard]

The reasons that Frodo's wounds cannot be fully healed upon Middle-earth are complex. To begin with, he is wounded by the morgul blade, which in itself is not something easily recovered from. But then he had taken up the quest and given all of himself to reach Mount Doom, stretching his limits physically as well as mentally by refusing to give in to the ring. But at last Frodo reaches the very place of the One Ring's forging, where of course its temptation is greatest: "At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its mazimimm - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted" (Letter 246).

Thus, Frodo is not responsible for taking up the Ring at Mt. Doom rather than throwing it to its destruction. He failed his quest, but the fact that there was no possibility of fulfilling it shows it wasn't a moral failure. Frodo's efforts, humility, and pity, have brought the Ring to a place where its destruction is possible, and indeed the ring is destroyed.

But Frodo has not given up the Ring freely, but rather it has been taken from him by force (which as Gandalf said would break his mind, although this is Gollum taking it not Gandalf). Consequently, Frodo almost wishes the Ring was not destroyed; awakening from sickness, Frodo says "it is gone for ever, and now all is dark and empty" ("The Grey Havens"). The Ring's abscence has left an impossibility for all recovery from sickness, so indeed his action upon Mt. Doom, although inevitable, makes it necessary for him to leave Middle-earth if he wants to heal.

As for the question about mortals in the Undying Lands, it is not the Land that makes the people there immortal, but the nature of the people. Mortals cannot become Immortal (death is an inherent quality, biological like in a sense, of the mortal races) except through an act of Eru, which only occurs for Tuor and the half-elven. The visit to Aman is "strictly a temporary reward: healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world" (Letter 154).

Don't take this death at free will idea to mean that they can live for ever, because it is only an idea that those who accept their mortality actually realize. The lifespan of a mortal "cannot really be increased qualitatively or quantitatively; so that prolongation in time is like stretching a wire out ever tauter, or 'spreading butter ever thinner' - it becomes an intoleable torment" (Letter 131). (the immortality of a ringwraith is not to be envied).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I think you have stated the crucial point there, Westerly Wizard - having the ring taken from him by force is what finally broke Frodo. The other factors (sword wound, spider bite) contributed, and he spoke of them and felt them later, but I agree that he would have survived had he given the ring up freely - which was impossible. So the inevitable result of his quest was the expulsion from his little paradise, the Shire, and simultaneously, the admittance to a greater paradise for healing as a reward for doing his utmost.

Excellent first post, by the way - welcome to the Downs!

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Westerly Wizard]

thanks for the welcome

I don't think it was the choice on Mount Doom that pained Frodo. here's why:

...for Frodo had been ill at ease. When they came to the Ford of Bruinen, he had halted, and seemed loth to ride into the stream; and they noted that for a while his eyes appeared not to see them or things about him. All that day he was silent. It was the sixth of October.
"Are you in pain, Frodo?" said Gandalf quietly as he rode by Frodo's side.
"Well, yes I am." said Frodo. "It is my shoulder. The wound aches, and the memory of darkness is heavy on me. It was a year ago today."
"Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured." said Gandalf.
"I fear it may be so with mine," said Frodo. "There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with a knife, sting, and tooth and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?"...
At length they came to Weathertop; and it was then drawing towards evening and the shadow of the hill lay dark on the road. Then Frodo begged them to hasten, and he would not look towards the hill, but rode through it's shadow with head bowed and cloak drawn close about him...
On the thirteenth of that month (March) Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream.
"It is gone forever," he said. "and now all is dark and empty."...
One evening Sam came into the study and found his master looking very strange. He was very pale and his eyes seemed to see things far away.
"Whatt's the matter, Mr. Frodo?" said Sam.
"I am wounded," he answered, "wounded; it will never really heal."...It was not until afterwards that Sam recalled that the date was October the sixth. Two years before on that day it was dark in the dell under Weathertop...
Frodo was ill again in March...

these are all the times when Frodo was in pain, and they all coincide with the dates of his attacks.

..."But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them..."

everyone else on the journey seems to have been able to get past it and move on in their lives, but not Frodo. maybe it's because of a number of things. All the wounds, the burden of bearing the ring for so long and so far, and then watching as it was destroyed. I don't think it was just one particular thing that made it neccessary for him to go to the Havens. Merry was also wounded by a Ringwraith, Sam and Bilbo also bore the Ring. well, i have to go. laters

[Diamond18]

I don't think it was just one particular thing that made it neccessary for him to go to the Havens. Merry was also wounded by a Ringwraith

But Merry did not have to go to Valinor as a result. He became prosperous, popular, happy, got married, had little hobbits, and in general enjoyed the Shire in every way that Frodo didn't.

So the fact that the three hobbits who go to Valinor are the three who were Ringbearers is most telling.

that's what i meant. merry was wounded by a Ringwraith, and he didn't have to go to the Gray Havens. I think it was all of the things combined that made it impossible for Frodo to completely heal in Middle Earth.

[Diamond18]

Oh right, duh. I had to re-read your post. Sorry. (I seem to be doing a lot of apologizing this morning...hmmm).

[Aramacil]

But I don’t understand something.

Why did Frodo’s painful wounds play up when it was that time of the year again, 1 or 2 years after the ‘incident’ at Weathertop and when he is near it (see macaroni’s quote).
Was the wounding at Weathertop so important? In the books there is not much said about it after he recovers in Rivendell, until the last chapter. Suddenly he almost dies because of those wounds, my only conclusion can be that it was indeed all the wounds combined.

[Evisse the Blue]

To resume everything that was said and to add my humble contributon, I'll say, using a clinical analogy that there were:
a). a trigger factor (of the greatest importance): which is the Mt Doom event - IMO, not that Frodo couldn't let go of the Ring, but that it was forcefully taken from him when he was most attached to it
b).facilitating factors: the Weathertop wound, Shelob's sting, etc
c). vulnerability factors - that have to do with Frodo's personality. He was more prone to introspection, more reflective, and tended to brood more over stuff, then Merry - for instance, who, even though has himself been touched by the shadow, was too much of an optimist to let himself too absorbed by the consequences.

Therefore, all these combined - though a). is of greatest importance led to Frodo leaving to Valinor to seek healing and forgetfulness.

[GildorInglorion]

I think the question of why he left is closely related to why he was alowed to.
If you have the choice, I think you would want to (I would!)

And it seems like having owned the ring is enough; Sam, Frodo and Bilbo. as akind of reward for helping ME.

Frodo's injuries made him depart much earlier than Sam.
Interesting question: would Gollum be allowed to go west, personaly i think so, not clear about the motives.

[Child of the 7th Age]

GildorInglorion--

I think the question of why he left is closely related to why he was alowed to.
If you have the choice, I think you would want to (I would!)

I agree with you that there was, in addition to the need for healing, a personal choice that was exercised.

Some time ago there was a very interesting thread in which we looked at some of the "positive" factors which were also pulling Frodo to the Blessed Lands. Wish I could find that thread, but am now too sleepy to think straight.

I don't think anyone would question that the need for healing was the most important reason that Frodo felt impelled to leave.But then you quickly come to another level of questioning. Did Frodo depart solely out of despair at his physical and psychic wounding, or were there things within him which made the departure from GreyHavens something more than that? Most of us on that thread felt that something more was indeed involved. That included all kinds of things: his visions at the house of Bombadil and in Rivendell, his stated longing for the Sea, Frodo's position as an Elf-friend, the light in Frodo's face which suggests some kind of spiritual connection much like the Elves themselves and their reflection of the light. We had quite a lengthy list.

So it was, I think, more than just a one-dimensional decision. Surely the need for healing came first, but these other factors motivated him as well.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

In fact, the thread which Child of the 7th Age speaks of is called "Frodo's Sacrifice."
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...ic&f=1&t=00098

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[Voralphion]

The wounds of Merry and Frodo by the Nazgul were very different which is the reason as to why Frodo never got over his wound.
Merry's wound was just as a result of stabbing the Witch-King which was healed fully by Aragorn.
Frodo's wound on the other hand was one designed to draw him into the world of shadows, which it almost accomplished as said by Gandalf in Rivendell. The fact he was almost drawn into that world was the reason he was able to see Glorfindel as a shining light, and the reason why he could never fully recover in Middle Earth.