Oliphants? Elephants? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Taure Leafsilver · 10-13-2002, 04:26 PM

in "The Hobbit" Gandalf use eliphants as a excimation, then in lotr Sam calls them oliphants. When Bilbo or whoever told Sam that poem did Sam just misunderstand?

Bill Ferny · 10-13-2002, 04:38 PM

The word Oliphaunt is the word used for these beasts in the Shire by the hobbits. Of course, for the hobbits (or at least most hobbits) these creatures were nothing more than elements of fanciful tales and children's stories. These stories about the oliphaunts were being circulated in the Shire long before Bilbo's journey.

As we learn, however, oliphaunts did in fact exist, and were used as beasts of war by the peoples of Harad. They are called mumakil by the Men of Gondor, and are pretty much the same as our elephants. I'm not sure if the term elephant was used in Middle-earth, and I'm looking without sucess for the reference in The Hobbit. Could you give me a chapter and page number?

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

Taure Leafsilver · 10-13-2002, 04:52 PM

yeah sure....... DARNIT! where'd it go eeeeerrrr ill update when i find it

Evenstar1 · 10-13-2002, 08:47 PM

"Oliphaunt," from the Afrikaans "Olifaunt," meaning "Elephant." (As you probably already know, JRRT lived in Africa in his very early childhood.) But yes, Bill Ferny, you are correct: the oliphaunts of the Harad looked larger and more monstrous than the regular elephants of today. (Could this be the result of how large the elephants looked to him when he was a child?)

TolkienGurl · 10-14-2002, 09:19 AM

Well, from what I understand, ME oliphaunts were the 'ancestors' of today's elephants.

Quote:

...but the Mumak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him does not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live still in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty.

Rumil · 10-14-2002, 02:07 PM

I'd assumed the Mumakil were similar to Mammoths, but 'nude' rather than wooly. I believe there were non-wooly mammoth-elephant relations wandering round Africa during the ice age.

Incidentally, one of the methods of controlling a war elephant was for the mahout to hammer a spike into its brain to kill it if the beast went out of control and started attacking its own troops.

Disciplined infantry could usually open up their formation to allow the elphants to pass through, elephants being keen to avoid a long row of chaps with spikey objects if possible!

Evenstar1 · 10-14-2002, 10:16 PM

Very cool info, Rumil! Is the "mahout" the person riding on top?

Rumil · 10-15-2002, 12:36 PM

Hi Eve, the mahout is indeed the 'driver' of the elephant (its an Indian term I believe).

Since you're into pachydermology, a few other oddments,

- Elephants scared horses away, so it was no good attacking them with cavalry, unless you'd trained the horses with real elephants beforehand

- Horses also dislike the smell of camels. Allegedley, in one ancient battle, the camels were disguised as elephants using wicker frames with a grey covering - not entirely sure why, perhaps the opposition were more likely to be scared of elephants than camels?

- Still don't know if they're really afraid of mice!

10-13-2002, 04:26 PM	#1
Taure Leafsilver Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire,Alabama Posts: 131	Oliphants? Elephants? in "The Hobbit" Gandalf use eliphants as a excimation, then in lotr Sam calls them oliphants. When Bilbo or whoever told Sam that poem did Sam just misunderstand? __________________ Pippin Lives!

10-13-2002, 04:38 PM	#2
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	The word Oliphaunt is the word used for these beasts in the Shire by the hobbits. Of course, for the hobbits (or at least most hobbits) these creatures were nothing more than elements of fanciful tales and children's stories. These stories about the oliphaunts were being circulated in the Shire long before Bilbo's journey. As we learn, however, oliphaunts did in fact exist, and were used as beasts of war by the peoples of Harad. They are called mumakil by the Men of Gondor, and are pretty much the same as our elephants. I'm not sure if the term elephant was used in Middle-earth, and I'm looking without sucess for the reference in The Hobbit. Could you give me a chapter and page number? [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ] [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ] __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

10-13-2002, 04:52 PM	#3
Taure Leafsilver Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire,Alabama Posts: 131	yeah sure....... DARNIT! where'd it go eeeeerrrr ill update when i find it __________________ Pippin Lives!

10-13-2002, 08:47 PM	#4
Evenstar1 Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado (just east of the Misty Mts.) Posts: 111	"Oliphaunt," from the Afrikaans "Olifaunt," meaning "Elephant." (As you probably already know, JRRT lived in Africa in his very early childhood.) But yes, Bill Ferny, you are correct: the oliphaunts of the Harad looked larger and more monstrous than the regular elephants of today. (Could this be the result of how large the elephants looked to him when he was a child?) __________________ - Eve

10-14-2002, 02:07 PM	#6
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 893	I'd assumed the Mumakil were similar to Mammoths, but 'nude' rather than wooly. I believe there were non-wooly mammoth-elephant relations wandering round Africa during the ice age. Incidentally, one of the methods of controlling a war elephant was for the mahout to hammer a spike into its brain to kill it if the beast went out of control and started attacking its own troops. Disciplined infantry could usually open up their formation to allow the elphants to pass through, elephants being keen to avoid a long row of chaps with spikey objects if possible! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

10-14-2002, 10:16 PM	#7
Evenstar1 Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado (just east of the Misty Mts.) Posts: 111	Very cool info, Rumil! Is the "mahout" the person riding on top? __________________ - Eve

10-15-2002, 12:36 PM	#8
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 893	Hi Eve, the mahout is indeed the 'driver' of the elephant (its an Indian term I believe). Since you're into pachydermology, a few other oddments, - Elephants scared horses away, so it was no good attacking them with cavalry, unless you'd trained the horses with real elephants beforehand - Horses also dislike the smell of camels. Allegedley, in one ancient battle, the camels were disguised as elephants using wicker frames with a grey covering - not entirely sure why, perhaps the opposition were more likely to be scared of elephants than camels? - Still don't know if they're really afraid of mice! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion