The remaining elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Maluriel · 07-24-2003, 02:10 PM

Who are they? Of course Arwen stays with Aragorn, but doesn't Legolas stay, when Aragorn gave him land to rule? Are there others? Or am I totally off? Did they all leave?

Maluriel, Heri Ilmalooke raust mear

Duncariel · 07-24-2003, 02:14 PM

There were many other Elves that remained in ME after the war besides Legolas, who eventually left, and Arwen.

Celeborn stayed for a long while with a large group of the Galdrhim (I don't think that's how you spell that [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ), and many Elves helped Legolas in the ordering of Ithilien.

There are probably bunches of others, but I can't think of any right now.

purplefluffychainsaw · 07-24-2003, 02:15 PM

Legolas went with Gimli to the havens after Aragorn died. Wasn't there something in the appendixes about some elves staying and diminiching? So that they are still around, hidding from us and trying to repare all that they can? Or did I just read that online somewhere?

**lindil** · 07-24-2003, 02:19 PM

All of the Noldor return to THe Undying Lands, along with Elrond.

The appendices [which contain a wealth of lore by the way [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ] also tell us that Legolas stayed until Aragorn died. Arwen by marrying [or falling in love with really] Aragorn chooses mortality and stays and finally after Aragorn dies she returns to Cerin Amroth and dies.

Her brothers final fate is unkown and much debated, but I think they Sail West after Aragorn dies.

As for all of the other Elves, they either sail west or they slowly [over ages] fade, becoming invisible to humans.

See the poem Kortirion among the Trees in Book of Lost Tales for JRRT's view on this.

I hope that helps.

[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Maluriel · 07-24-2003, 02:31 PM

It does very much, but I can't stand that. I have to believe, I can't explain why, that there will always be some elves in Middle Earth, and that the Havens isn't just Heaven and they all died. I don't know why I feel this way, but I get really involved in these stories and I feel so close to elves in particular that I have to believe they won't ever entirely deminish. I think I'm just a little too dramatic about fantasy, but oh well. How long did Aragorn live anyway?

Maluriel, Heri Ilmalooke Raust Mear

Meela · 07-24-2003, 02:38 PM

1 March III 2931 to IV 120 (lived 210 years)

Arwen Melian · 07-24-2003, 02:40 PM

I agree with you maluriel. It would be a deep loss to Middle Earth if the elves were to die out9and a deep lodd to us...becuase of our deep involvement in the books). However, they just diminished. Isn't it a strange though though, elves evntually becoming invisible to mankind. If they are real , that would would explain many things. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Maluriel · 07-24-2003, 02:43 PM

but diminish entirely, or just from Middle and Normal Earth?

Maluriel, Heri Ilmalooke Raust Mear

Maluriel · 07-24-2003, 02:47 PM

Come on, give me something to go on! They couldn't have completely became nothing and never were! No, I won't allow it! Is the Havens really Heaven, or another land? Please help me!

Maluriel, Heri Ilmalooke Raust Mear

Meela · 07-24-2003, 03:03 PM

I don't know what to think of the Havens or the Undying Lands They appear to be just another land, a place you can actually reach, but I didn't think you could return, which makes it seem to be a metaphorical heaven.

It is almost as though the world is divided by an invisible screen. You can step through i and see and touch the lands on the other side, but you cannot step back through. This mysterious wall prevents it. A weird image, I know, but something that popped into my head and rather defines my thoughts for me.

I would then have to say that elves do not diminish altogether, but merely step through this "wall" and do not return to the mortal world. They exist, but remain separated from the other side.

I suppose, really, the havens and the Undying Lands are pretty much heaven. Only slightly more 'real', if you take my meaning based on my above musings.

Meneltarmacil · 07-24-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

I don't know what to think of the Havens or the Undying Lands They appear to be just another land, a place you can actually reach, but I didn't think you could return, which makes it seem to be a metaphorical heaven.

But didn't the Noldor return to ME? And what about when all those elves from Tol Eressea visited Numenor during the Second Age?

eldomeldo · 07-24-2003, 04:42 PM

According to the Appendices, in ROTK, it says that Legolas built a refuge near Ithilien for the Elves that did not want to leave, they deminished and were only remembered in songs and tales, as men could no longer see them. Celeborn built a refuge East of Lothlorien for the Noldor that remained. I like to think that some elves remained till Arwen went to die at Cerin Amroth, as i do not think that Elrond, Galadriel, and Celeborn would have left her completely alone. Legolas sailed to the Havens in a ship he built, Gimli went with him, after the death of Aragorn, they were the last of the fellowship to leave middle earth.

Maluriel · 07-24-2003, 04:42 PM

Havens may be a metaphor for Heaven in a way, but it can't be the literal afterlife, because everyone else who died, inclusing Arwen who was an elf, went somewhere that was not Havens. Havens must just be another land.

Maluriel, Varya Quendelion

Silmiel of Imladris · 07-24-2003, 04:53 PM

I think by diminish it means that there are less and less elves over time. The whole invisible thing doesn't really fly. Perhaps the elves hide very well. If you did happen to meet one you could see him but they for the most part hide.

Maluriel · 07-24-2003, 04:57 PM

Wouldn't that be interesting if there was a story about a human that had the gift of seeing elves and brough them back? Hmmm...

Maluriel, Varya Quendelion

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 07-25-2003, 08:04 AM

Some Nandor probably remained as well as Avari, unless you believe in the theory that is discussed here.

-Aredhel

[ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: Aredhel Idril Telcontar ]

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 07-25-2003, 08:06 AM

Maluriel, I'm not sure what you mean by 'Havens', but if you're talking about Mithlond (the Grey Havens), it's where Elves took their grey ships to Valinor.

-Aredhel

[ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: Aredhel Idril Telcontar ]

purplefluffychainsaw · 07-25-2003, 11:45 AM

I don't think that the undying lands can be compared with heaven, because Tolkien said that it was moved into a dimention beoynd human ideas (Sorry, I can't think of a better world and my legs gone dead so I can't be bothered to limp upstairs and get the book) Doesn't this mean that we can't compare it to anything that we know?

Maluriel · 07-25-2003, 12:53 PM

Sounds right. And yes I do mean the Grey Havens. Because elves are immortal, then it would be inhabitted by immortals and thus seem like an afterlife, but in fact it is not. Okay, I feel better now. Legolas no die. Life is good. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Namari an si.

Maluriel, Varya Quendelion

Arwen Melian · 07-25-2003, 04:23 PM

Meela, Glorfindel went to Valinor and returned to Middle Earth....hence why he glowed with light as if from behind a veil. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Silmiel of Imladris · 07-25-2003, 09:21 PM

Good old Glofindel, but why did he bother coming back? Before I finished ROTK I thought the grey heavens were another name for Valinor. Silly me. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

07-24-2003, 02:10 PM	#1
Maluriel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in a hole under a rock Posts: 21	The remaining elves Who are they? Of course Arwen stays with Aragorn, but doesn't Legolas stay, when Aragorn gave him land to rule? Are there others? Or am I totally off? Did they all leave? Maluriel, Heri Ilmalooke raust mear __________________ The elf will not be forgotten, for I am The Varya Quendelion.

07-24-2003, 02:14 PM	#2
Duncariel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow Posts: 226	There were many other Elves that remained in ME after the war besides Legolas, who eventually left, and Arwen. Celeborn stayed for a long while with a large group of the Galdrhim (I don't think that's how you spell that [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ), and many Elves helped Legolas in the ordering of Ithilien. There are probably bunches of others, but I can't think of any right now. __________________ Middle-earth: Insanity "What, the peons aren't trusted?" -- Yazoo, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children

07-24-2003, 02:15 PM	#3
purplefluffychainsaw Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a very cold place.... Posts: 162	Legolas went with Gimli to the havens after Aragorn died. Wasn't there something in the appendixes about some elves staying and diminiching? So that they are still around, hidding from us and trying to repare all that they can? Or did I just read that online somewhere? __________________ Love, Drugs and Fairy Boys ~ SAM

07-24-2003, 02:19 PM	#4
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	All of the Noldor return to THe Undying Lands, along with Elrond. The appendices [which contain a wealth of lore by the way [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ] also tell us that Legolas stayed until Aragorn died. Arwen by marrying [or falling in love with really] Aragorn chooses mortality and stays and finally after Aragorn dies she returns to Cerin Amroth and dies. Her brothers final fate is unkown and much debated, but I think they Sail West after Aragorn dies. As for all of the other Elves, they either sail west or they slowly [over ages] fade, becoming invisible to humans. See the poem Kortirion among the Trees in Book of Lost Tales for JRRT's view on this. I hope that helps. [ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-24-2003, 02:31 PM	#5
Maluriel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in a hole under a rock Posts: 21	It does very much, but I can't stand that. I have to believe, I can't explain why, that there will always be some elves in Middle Earth, and that the Havens isn't just Heaven and they all died. I don't know why I feel this way, but I get really involved in these stories and I feel so close to elves in particular that I have to believe they won't ever entirely deminish. I think I'm just a little too dramatic about fantasy, but oh well. How long did Aragorn live anyway? Maluriel, Heri Ilmalooke Raust Mear __________________ The elf will not be forgotten, for I am The Varya Quendelion.

07-24-2003, 02:38 PM	#6
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,118	1 March III 2931 to IV 120 (lived 210 years) __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-24-2003, 02:40 PM	#7
Arwen Melian Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sometimes Imladris....sometimes Mirkwood...other times ....Lothlorien Posts: 141	I agree with you maluriel. It would be a deep loss to Middle Earth if the elves were to die out9and a deep lodd to us...becuase of our deep involvement in the books). However, they just diminished. Isn't it a strange though though, elves evntually becoming invisible to mankind. If they are real , that would would explain many things. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Maiden of Rivendell "Anything to get away from the evil monkey in my bedroom." Fine! I admit it. I am a supporter of Agent Elrond. Now would you please leave me be?

07-24-2003, 02:43 PM	#8
Maluriel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in a hole under a rock Posts: 21	but diminish entirely, or just from Middle and Normal Earth? Maluriel, Heri Ilmalooke Raust Mear __________________ The elf will not be forgotten, for I am The Varya Quendelion.

07-24-2003, 02:47 PM	#9
Maluriel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in a hole under a rock Posts: 21	Come on, give me something to go on! They couldn't have completely became nothing and never were! No, I won't allow it! Is the Havens really Heaven, or another land? Please help me! Maluriel, Heri Ilmalooke Raust Mear __________________ The elf will not be forgotten, for I am The Varya Quendelion.

07-24-2003, 03:03 PM	#10
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,118	I don't know what to think of the Havens or the Undying Lands They appear to be just another land, a place you can actually reach, but I didn't think you could return, which makes it seem to be a metaphorical heaven. It is almost as though the world is divided by an invisible screen. You can step through i and see and touch the lands on the other side, but you cannot step back through. This mysterious wall prevents it. A weird image, I know, but something that popped into my head and rather defines my thoughts for me. I would then have to say that elves do not diminish altogether, but merely step through this "wall" and do not return to the mortal world. They exist, but remain separated from the other side. I suppose, really, the havens and the Undying Lands are pretty much heaven. Only slightly more 'real', if you take my meaning based on my above musings. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-24-2003, 04:42 PM	#12
eldomeldo Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: wales Posts: 13	According to the Appendices, in ROTK, it says that Legolas built a refuge near Ithilien for the Elves that did not want to leave, they deminished and were only remembered in songs and tales, as men could no longer see them. Celeborn built a refuge East of Lothlorien for the Noldor that remained. I like to think that some elves remained till Arwen went to die at Cerin Amroth, as i do not think that Elrond, Galadriel, and Celeborn would have left her completely alone. Legolas sailed to the Havens in a ship he built, Gimli went with him, after the death of Aragorn, they were the last of the fellowship to leave middle earth.

07-24-2003, 04:53 PM	#14
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	I think by diminish it means that there are less and less elves over time. The whole invisible thing doesn't really fly. Perhaps the elves hide very well. If you did happen to meet one you could see him but they for the most part hide. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

07-24-2003, 04:57 PM	#15
Maluriel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in a hole under a rock Posts: 21	Wouldn't that be interesting if there was a story about a human that had the gift of seeing elves and brough them back? Hmmm... Maluriel, Varya Quendelion __________________ The elf will not be forgotten, for I am The Varya Quendelion.

07-25-2003, 08:04 AM	#16
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	Some Nandor probably remained as well as Avari, unless you believe in the theory that is discussed here. -Aredhel [ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: Aredhel Idril Telcontar ] __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve

07-25-2003, 08:06 AM	#17
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	Maluriel, I'm not sure what you mean by 'Havens', but if you're talking about Mithlond (the Grey Havens), it's where Elves took their grey ships to Valinor. -Aredhel [ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: Aredhel Idril Telcontar ] __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve

07-25-2003, 11:45 AM	#18
purplefluffychainsaw Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a very cold place.... Posts: 162	I don't think that the undying lands can be compared with heaven, because Tolkien said that it was moved into a dimention beoynd human ideas (Sorry, I can't think of a better world and my legs gone dead so I can't be bothered to limp upstairs and get the book) Doesn't this mean that we can't compare it to anything that we know? __________________ Love, Drugs and Fairy Boys ~ SAM

07-25-2003, 12:53 PM	#19
Maluriel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: in a hole under a rock Posts: 21	Sounds right. And yes I do mean the Grey Havens. Because elves are immortal, then it would be inhabitted by immortals and thus seem like an afterlife, but in fact it is not. Okay, I feel better now. Legolas no die. Life is good. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Namari an si. Maluriel, Varya Quendelion __________________ The elf will not be forgotten, for I am The Varya Quendelion.

07-25-2003, 04:23 PM	#20
Arwen Melian Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sometimes Imladris....sometimes Mirkwood...other times ....Lothlorien Posts: 141	Meela, Glorfindel went to Valinor and returned to Middle Earth....hence why he glowed with light as if from behind a veil. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Maiden of Rivendell "Anything to get away from the evil monkey in my bedroom." Fine! I admit it. I am a supporter of Agent Elrond. Now would you please leave me be?

07-25-2003, 09:21 PM	#21
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	Good old Glofindel, but why did he bother coming back? Before I finished ROTK I thought the grey heavens were another name for Valinor. Silly me. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?