How Long Does it Take to Get to Valinor?

[Galadriel]

I mean, from Middle-earth, in the Fourth Age, how long would it take by ship? A few months? A few days? A few weeks?

Thanks!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I don't know the answer, if there is any, but let me just tell my personal opinion. I got the feeling that at least from the point when you sort of leave the closest shores of Middle-Earth, time is not really the point - not by the Fourth Age anyway. Eärendil had his share of adventures and daily problems (at least on his original journeys, I can imagine him counting whether he still has enough supplies and so on), the length of Tar-Pharazon's journey is probably accounted for. But if I look at the description of Frodo's last journey... I honestly cannot imagine it being like "Hey, Gandalf, when are we going to be there?" "Fifteen hours. Fasten your seatbelts, please, and remain seated until further notice. At half past twelve, you will get lunch." The journey away from Middle-Earth is sort of beyond that. And it's not even, I believe, that you could determine exactly some "point of departure", like exactly pinpoint a location or time ("eight hours from leaving Mithlond") when things start to change. I would say that if you had some outside observer, like another ship following the ship which was leaving and then turning back, I guess it won't do either. I can almost see it physically in front of my eyes, if it came to recounting such event in the book, Tolkien writing something like: "...and suddenly wind came from the West, and the other ship was lost to their sight. And of those who told about the events later, some said that it occured at half past four, some said that it was hardly past three; and one sailor said that he had witnessed the lamp on the highest mast still that very evening, as if from far away, but no one else could verify his words..."

All in all, the thing is, at least in Fourth Age, as long as you are basically in Middle-Earth, you can measure time all you like. But once you are out, it does not really matter how long did it take - because you are not coming back, and also, your own perception of the journey will probably be such that you cannot put it into days or such.

[Galadriel55]

Before the fall of Numenor, one could reach Valinor like Earendil did. That could take days, probably weeks. After Valinor has been...removed? from the surface of Arda, the sailing is more symbolical and traditional then it is actually required, since not all ships may find the "straight way" to Aman, and the Valar deal with that. If you read the passage when Frodo leaves ME, it says something like this:
Frodo saw the curtain of rain open, and he looked at the light ahead...
But for Sam the curtain didn't yield, as he watched the ship disappear into the rain

This means that it only took the Valar's "permission" and a couple of hours - even less - to get to Valinor in the 3rd and 4th epoch.

Again, this is only my opinion, so if you have proof against that, go ahead with it!

[xMellrynxMaidenx]

Galadriel55, I would have to go with what you're saying. You can't really get down to the science and math of it all because there really isn't any. Those who would even attempt to sail there to calculate the distance, the Valar would deal with them if they are not allowed to sail to Valinor, they probably wouldn't even make it past the horizon or the "curtain of rain". It's a spiritual journey that only those the Valar allow to sail there can make, there's no real distance involved, time doesn't matter anymore. There's just no technicalities involved with taking a spiritual journey.

[Elmo]

If they weren't allowed to travel to Valinor they just ended up in the Middle Earth equivalent of America. Or if they were one of the lucky/unlucky ones they ended up in Valinor but the Valar then killed them with the mariner's last gaze being on the white beaches of Eldamaar and the great white mountains of the Pelori.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by xMellrynxMaidenx

It's a spiritual journey that only those the Valar allow to sail there can make, there's no real distance involved, time doesn't matter anymore. There's just no technicalities involved with taking a spiritual journey.

Exactly. Plus once in Valinor, you don't feel time - just like in Lothlorien, except the feeling is probably way stronger. You can't really tell how much time has passed.

[Puddleglum]

While the Valar do "take care of it", Elves & Men (as incarnated Fea) live in time and are aware of its passage so I favor a slightly different answer to this question.


Prior to the Downfall, the way to Valinor (by sea, that is) was a straight path across Belegaer, the Great Sea. From Numenor, it took Ar-Pharazon's fleet 39 days to reach Valinor. And we are elsewhere told that Numenor was closer to Valinor than to Middle Earth suggesting that a full crossing from Mithlond (during the Second Age) might take on the order of 12-14 weeks (give or take the wind).

At the Downfall, Valinor was removed from the circles of the world, and the world was made round, but it is recorded in "The Akallabeth" that ...

and yet the Eldar were permitted to come to the Ancient West ... Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it.

While nothing here is certain, my Theory is that the route to Valinor remained essentially unchanged and only the World was Bent under it.

In that case, those who were permitted to find the Straight Road, would still have a (roughly) 12-14 week crossing to Eressea and the haven of Avallone.

[Galadriel55]

That's an interesting view, Puddleglum. However, I'd say no to this because when Frodo departs from ME, it says that he could see light ahead, while Sam couldn't, and that happened withing a few hours of Frodo's departure at the most. It is most likely that the light comes from Valinor - where else from? especially since it is the light that only those on the ship can see (Frodo's ship went on the Straight Road and Sam didn't - obviously; so that is my explanation for the light).
Moreover, Ar Phazaron's juorney could have been longer than, for example, a Teleri's one (when they came to visit during the good times). He went to war against the Valar, and he was not counting on a strong breeze that would carry his ships all the way to Valinor. Although the Valar didn't stop him, they didn't help him either, whereas they could've eased and speeded up the journey for those who found the Straight Road.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That's an interesting view, Puddleglum. However, I'd say no to this because when Frodo departs from ME, it says that he could see light ahead, while Sam couldn't, and that happened withing a few hours of Frodo's departure at the most. It is most likely that the light comes from Valinor - where else from? especially since it is the light that only those on the ship can see (Frodo's ship went on the Straight Road and Sam didn't - obviously; so that is my explanation for the light).

Well, I've had wrong theories before. In this case, I'm not sure if you are recalling the sequence correctly, tho. (from "The Grey Havens")

Slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.
And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the west, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air...

It sounds like the light you recalled may have been Sam watching Frodo msail away. Note also the "at last" suggesting that the voyage took an unspecified (but possibly long) time.
Actually, the Firth of Lune is something like 150 miles long, and would take more than a few hours for a sailing ship to traverse - just to get to the open sea - much less out onthe the High Sea.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, Ar Phazaron's juorney could have been longer than, for example, a Teleri's one (when they came to visit during the good times). He went to war against the Valar, and he was not counting on a strong breeze that would carry his ships all the way to Valinor. Although the Valar didn't stop him, they didn't help him either, whereas they could've eased and speeded up the journey for those who found the Straight Road.

Quite true. The voyage (even by my theory) could have been shorter than the several months I estimated.

[xMellrynxMaidenx]

I don't think your theory was wrong, Puddlegum. I liked it and the thought you put into it. And with the info you have given, it could be true. When I think of Valinor, and I don't know if you're a christian or not so if I offend you with this simile, I had no intentions of doing so. I was more so comparing Valinor to Heaven in the spiritual sense because that's what I think of when I think of Valinor, I never really think of the technicalities as you have given in your theory.

I suppose it's all in how the person looks at it. Some will think of it spiritually and some will not.

[Galadriel55]

Valinor is a bit like heaven - I agree with you on that. But it's a physical heaven.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

While nothing here is certain, my Theory is that the route to Valinor remained essentially unchanged and only the World was Bent under it.

In that case, those who were permitted to find the Straight Road, would still have a (roughly) 12-14 week crossing to Eressea and the haven of Avallone.

I would think that distance and time from the time of embarkation from Middle-earth to the West could only be measured to the point at which the "new" way diverged from the "old".

The section from the Akallabêth quoted by Puddleglum continues:

....a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it. And they taught that, while the new world fell away, the old road and the path of the memory of the West still went on, as it were a mighty bridge invisible that passed through the air of breath and flight (which were bent now as the world was bent), and traversed Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure, until it came to Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, and maybe even beyond....

Ilmen is defined in the Silmarillion as "the region above the air where the stars are".

The bit about "traversing Ilmen" leads me to believe the traveler to the West would cease to be "sailing" in a conventional manner when they encountered the entrance to the Straight Road (if allowed, or course). The ship was only a means to get to the point at Sea where the gate lay. After that, how could time and distance be measured by a Middle-earth denizen, if one started to fly or passed through to another plane of existence?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

After that, how could time and distance be measured by a Middle-earth denizen, if one started to fly or passed through to another plane of existence?

Well, a Middle-earth denizen is still a creature existing within time. Even in Valinor, the Valar continue to watch the unfolding history of Arda as time flows on.

As such, someone traversing Ilmen on the straight-way to Valinor (if so gifted to find that path) would still experience the passage of time (be it short or long). Just as they would continue to experience the passage of time after arriving at Eressea (or Valinor beyond).

I don't think I would say that such voyagers are "traveling into another dimension (plane of existence)". That sounds too much like trying to shoehorn Tolkien's secondary (sub)creation into our own "current" primary-world "scientific" understandings which may actually be unnecessarily limited in scope.

Had Tolkien been writing a primary-world Sci-Fi novel, it might make sense. But as Eru (God) and pre-existing, self-incarnating spirits (Valar/Maier) are all REAL (within his secondary subcreation), I think there is basis for leaving things a bit more mysterious as Valinor was removed (and thus voyagers travel) "into the realm of hidden (tho still physical and real) things"

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

As such, someone traversing Ilmen on the straight-way to Valinor (if so gifted to find that path) would still experience the passage of time (be it short or long). Just as they would continue to experience the passage of time after arriving at Eressea (or Valinor beyond).

Yes, time goes on and affects the traveler. However, the traveller would not feel the time. I suppose that Valinor is similar to Lorien in this sense, except even stronger. Sam didn't want to believe that he spent a whole month in Lorien, because he didn't feel the time pass by. Even though Frodo and Bilbo would eventually die in Valinor, they wouldn't really be aware/concious of the years that go by.
I don't think that it was a different plane of existence, but existence would seem to be on a different plane for, I guess, everyone except for Elves. They are used to having time pass by, since they live for millenia. And even for Elves life in Valinor would be different. The fundamental principles of "existence" would remain the same, but existence would be different.
This is all a lot of guesswork, though - existence or not. I guess it's really up to the reader to decide how far/close Valinor became. According to me it is farther, because it is beyond the "circles of the world", but on the other hand, it's closer, because you don't need to travel for weeks to get there, but you need the Valar's permission to go on the straight way. Again, this is a very debatable topic. For me the removal of Valinor from Arda was more a sybolic event than one that could change the plot significantly. When it comes to symbols, everyone has a different interpretation.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

But as Eru (God) and pre-existing, self-incarnating spirits (Valar/Maier) are all REAL (within his secondary subcreation), I think there is basis for leaving things a bit more mysterious as Valinor was removed (and thus voyagers travel) "into the realm of hidden (tho still physical and real) things"[/INDENT]

The land of Aman, though still able to be found by those so ordained, was not part of the "real" world any longer after the Downfall.

.....Númenor was destroyed, and Eressëa and Valinor removed from the physically attainable earth.

Letter 154

....Númenor foundered and was utterly overwhelmed......and the Blessed Realm removed forever from the circles of the physical world.

Letter 156

If the Ancient West was not physically part of Middle-earth, how would Frodo possibly estimate the length and distance of his journey there? One may attempt it during the voyage, but when one's estimations are based upon the known world, and they are passing out of that world, such guesses are futile.

[Pitchwife]

Much as I sympathize with emphasizing the spiritual, otherworldly aspect of Valinor and the journey there (of which Legate's earlier post was wonderfully evocative), I think Puddleglum has a good point here. Faery doesn't reckon in hours and kilometers, but neither is it some sort of non-spatial/non-temporal Nirvana. Valinor used to be an earthly paradise, and even when it no longer inhabited the same physical plane as the rest of Arda (whatever that may mean), I think it remained somehow analogous to what it was like when it did; meaning there were still mountains and rivers and plains, and the Pass of Calacirya and a sea between Tol Eressëa and the mainland (otherwise where would be the fun for the Teleri?), and it would still have taken time to get from here to there - although I'd agree that time probably didn't matter for the people there in quite the same way as it does for us on this here side of the Great Sea. And I guess the same applies for the journey as for the country itself.

That quote from the Akallabêth about the Straight Road and the ship on it passing through air and space like on a mighty bridge is a wonderful mythical image, and I feel that trying to translate it into rational terms ruins it somehow. Never mind that this is what Tolkien himself apparently attempted in those letters Zil quoted, for the benefit of 20th century readers presumably unfamiliar with mythical thinking - but when he wrote that quote down, he was thinking like a poet, not like a metaphysicist (or is it metaphysician?).

So what would the journey have been like for those on the ship? I can't see them as entering spiritual hyperspace through some gate or metaphysical wormhole and being zapped to Valinor in no time, like the USS Enterprise with streaming stars blurred into stripes behind them. Rather I'd imagine they would have the experience of sailing on all the way through, first on the bent Sea, then through the air, finally through the region of the stars, until at last, on a night of rain..., they reached that other sea and approached the shore of the Blessed Land. Note there are were obviously still nights and days (even rain!), so the passengers would still have the experience of time passing - even if they'd grow less and less concerned with the reckoning of time during the course of their voyage, so they probably wouldn't have asked Gandalf whether they were going to arrive by tea-time (although with hobbits, I'm not even sure of that.)

[Formendacil]

If we're taking sides, put me down solidly on the Puddlegum/Pitchwife side of temporal vs. spiritual. For what it's worth, I don't think the analogy can be made that Valinor is equivalent to the Christian conception of Heaven--even transposing it into Middle-earthic terms.

For one thing, Heaven in Christian theology* is only a place after Jesus takes a body and dies and ascends to be with his Father. It is also only at that time that the souls of the dead can conceive of Heaven as a post-mortem option--because Heaven is not "place above the world where God is where good people go when they die" but "the place where Jesus is, which is the ultimate goal of the Christian life--to be like Him, so that we may be with Him as He is."

Since Middle-earth never has (or has not had yet, as of Frodo's time, depending how you read the "Athrabeth") Eru Incarnate, there is nowhere that can be considered "Heaven, aka the place where Eru Incarnate lives and we want to live with him." If Valinor is a place of retirement for the Dead, it is more akin to Jewish Sheol (and the Halls of Mandos definitely has shades of this), or even the Catholic conception of Purgatory. If I remember aright, Tolkien does say somewhere that Frodo's stay in Valinor was more of a Purgatory than Heaven--a place to be purified of what had happened in his life. We should note that while Purgatory is generally considered to be an unpleasant place to be, it is not an unpleasant place to be going to, since it means that you've escaped the alternative (aka Hell) and are on the right track to eventually make it to Heaven.

There is another aspect to the Christian conception of Heaven that needs to be taken into account, however, and that is the post-worldly quality of the place. Heaven isn't just somewhere to go after we die, it is the new world after death. It's pretty difficult to separate out "new heavens and a new earth" (aka the heavenly Jerusalem) from "Heaven" per se. And, as far as that goes, there IS a whole tradition in Tolkien of Arda Remade which matches this idea of post-worldly Heaven quite nicely.... but that's after the Dagor Dagorath, after the Elves and the Valar grow weary of this world and envy the Gift of Men, when Eru remakes things.

And Valinor isn't Arda Remade. It isn't even Arda Unmarred... merely a part of Arda Marred that has been preserved from the stain of Melkor in a unique way. It is a sort of Elven purgatory, still attached to the physical world, since the Elves are uniquely bound to the physical world, but it isn't the world as it should be, nor as it will be, when it is remade.

There's also a whole possible distinction to be made between Valinor and Tol Eressëa, but that might be splitting hairs a little more than I need to. I think my point is made...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yes, time goes on and affects the traveller. However, the traveller would not feel the time. I suppose that Valinor is similar to Lorien in this sense, except even stronger. Sam didn't want to believe that he spent a whole month in Lorien, because he didn't feel the time pass by. Even though Frodo and Bilbo would eventually die in Valinor, they wouldn't really be aware/conscious of the years that go by.

The Lórien/Valinor comparison is probably a lot more fruitful than Heaven/Valinor, but I think there are some issues with it. First of all, it's one thing thing to say Valinor is like Lórien, it's another thing to say that the voyage to Valinor is like Lórien.

Aside from that quibble, however, I'm still not sure that Valinor would have the same relationship with time that Lórien did. Lórien's time-dilation effect is directly the byproduct of Galadriel's use of Nenya. It was, in that respect, an artificial defence against the effects of time in the world. While there is a timelessness in Valinor, it stems from different causes (certainly, it doesn't stem from a Ring made with Celebrimbor's craft and Sauron's influence). In Lórien, the effects of time are halted by playing with time itself, it seems. In Valinor, I think the effects of time are avoided, not by avoiding time, but because the stain of Morgoth is kept away, and thus "death" does not enter.

Nonetheless, insofar as even the Valar will someday envy the Gift of Men, I think we can take it for certain that time does flow in Valinor, and presumably at a more or less normal rate.




*I am speaking more specifically of Catholic theology, which is the pertinent theology if we're using Tolkien as our barometer anyway, but I think I'm speaking in generic enough terms that the Catholic/any Christian distinction is unnecessary.

[Galadriel55]

I'd say that the journey takes about a day.

And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragnance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-cutrain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.
But to Sam the evening deepened to darkness as he stood at the Haven...

The Grey Havens

I think that although it says on a night of rain, it means the night. Frodo left onthe morning of one day and arrived in Valinor the morning of the next day. If it wasn't for the paragraph describing Sam, I'd also say that it took Frodo a few days/weeks to get there. However, the way Tolkien compares what Sam and Frodo see, it seems like he's talking about the same night. It wouldn't make sense to say that Sam didn't see something on the first night that happened on the fifth, for example. Of course he wouldn't see something that hasn't yet happened. However, I think that the reason for Tolkien to write that is because he wanted to emphasize the separation between both Frodo and Sam, as well as ME and Valinor. It really depends on how you look at it.

[Galin]

I would agree that Aman and Eressea, after being removed, are still within time.

If I recall correctly there's also a letter where JRRT notes this specifically, but anyway, as Legolas notes concerning Lothlorien, change and decay is not the same in all places. Tolkien toyed with actual time differences in Lorien (as seen from draft texts), but he abandoned this for halting or slowing the unwanted (from an Elvish perspective) effects of time rather -- which still had its confusing effect in any case, as we see from Sam's comments.

Lothlorien still could be said to be 'timeless' in ways, but as Legolas also notes, time does not tarry. In the text Aman (Morgoth's Ring) it's noted that: 'Time in Aman was actual time, not merely a mode of perception. As, say, 100 years went by in Middle-earth as part of Arda, so 100 years passed in Aman, which was also part of Arda.'

Of course the next section titled Aman and Mortal Men begins: 'If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar...' but still the reader is given no real reason to think that this bit about time wasn't still true after the Change of the World.

[Puddleglum]

Interestingly, I just ran across something I had forgotten in HoME volume 4 "The Shaping of Middle Earth". In the section "The Ambarkanta" (The shape of the world), there is a diagram drawn by Tolkien (Diagram III) which shows the world after it was made round.

The diagram includes a line, tangential to the surface of the round world, labeled "The Straight Path."

And on that line, at a distance from the tangent point of about 1-1/2 radii, is a dot labeled "Valinor"!

So, if the round world (post downfall) is equivalent to our modern Earth in size, then Valinor would be about 6000 miles out.

Of course, this is just one diagram and Tolkien's ideas may have changed - but at least it suggests the theory may have more documentary basis (in Tolkien's writings) than I had originally thought.

[Pitchwife]

Nice find, Puddleglum! There are also several world maps reproduced in that section (one of them, with the shapes of the continents starting to look similar to what they are now, can be seen here). Judging from those, I'd say Belegaer pre-Fall looks like it's roughly the size of the Atlantic - which is something between 3000 and 6000 km wide, and it took Christopher Columbus a little over three months to cross it; which fits your guess of about 12-14 weeks quite nicely.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Interestingly, I just ran across something I had forgotten in HoME volume 4 "The Shaping of Middle Earth". In the section "The Ambarkanta" (The shape of the world), there is a diagram drawn by Tolkien (Diagram III) which shows the world after it was made round.

The diagram includes a line, tangential to the surface of the round world, labeled "The Straight Path."

And on that line, at a distance from the tangent point of about 1-1/2 radii, is a dot labeled "Valinor"!

So, if the round world (post downfall) is equivalent to our modern Earth in size, then Valinor would be about 6000 miles out.

Of course, this is just one diagram and Tolkien's ideas may have changed - but at least it suggests the theory may have more documentary basis (in Tolkien's writings) than I had originally thought.

Wow! That's a great find, as pitchwife said. Thanks a lot! But I think I'm going to stick to Galadriel55's answer

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Interestingly, I just ran across something I had forgotten in HoME volume 4 "The Shaping of Middle Earth". In the section "The Ambarkanta" (The shape of the world), there is a diagram drawn by Tolkien (Diagram III) which shows the world after it was made round.

The diagram includes a line, tangential to the surface of the round world, labeled "The Straight Path."

And on that line, at a distance from the tangent point of about 1-1/2 radii, is a dot labeled "Valinor"!

So, if the round world (post downfall) is equivalent to our modern Earth in size, then Valinor would be about 6000 miles out.

Anyone want to buy me the HOME for Christmas?

Anyway, it still seems to me that one's perception of time would change when making the transition from the "new" world to the "old".