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04-14-2006, 04:32 AM | #41 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Newly consecrated young monk has entered into service at a monastery famous for its archive of sacred texts, and has been given a task of copying manuscripts. Despite availability of originals, he found that monks were copying from earlier copies, whilst originals were kept in the basement for safekeeping. Being of inquisitive mind, young monk asked an audience with the prior to learn the reason of such practice.
'Why don't we copy from originals, father?' he asked. 'Why? My son, I'm not sure... it is tradition, I suppose. Besides, if we take them out too often, we may damage them' 'Yes, father, you're right. But, if we never take them out for comparison, we may omit incorrigible errors in our copying. How do you know we are not copying some error, or number of such, for generations already?' 'You know, my son, I believe our copiers, you yourself included, are mostly diligent, so no errors slipped our notice. Yet, to sooth your worries down, I'll check documents you've copied against originals myself. Wait for me here; it must not take more than half an hour. Prior went off to the basement where originals were kept, yet came not back in half an hour, nor in an hour. In fact, he’s been missing for a day or two. Worried, young monk went after him to the basement, and found him in poor state. Prior's garments were in disorder, hair stood on end, cheeks were feverishly red. He sat on the floor, and all round him original manuscripts were scattered. Monk ran down the stair to him. ‘What happened, father? Why do you sit on the floor? Are you feeling well?’ ‘What?... Who?!... Ah, it's you, my son…you were right, we’ve been copying an error for generations… too late now… yet it was written that monks should celebrate in the original, as I’ve just found out… not monks should celibate … too late now….' Kidding apart, but approaches as you suggest are not alternative. If the story I’ve just provided you with (and do hope all who’ve read it took it as light humor and nothing more) have been true, it would illustrate that even venerable (and diligent) scribes may err sometimes. So, my own approach would be a mix, something along the lines of Received Tradition of Venerable, yet sometimes Fallible (for records being in contradiction) Recorders
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 04-14-2006 at 05:15 AM. |
04-14-2006, 04:59 AM | #42 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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The very existence of one 'false' account of historical events in the Legendarium calls the veracity of the others into question. Plus, which of the many versions of the Sil are the 'correct' one - the many, sometimes Fallible Authors theory allows us all of them, the 'Venerable Recorders' version requires us to through most of them out. In other words, if we think in terms of FA's we can accept all the writings as part of a vast mythology, constructed by various hands, with different agendas, different kinds of information & differing levels of talent, but if we choose to go down the VR road, we have to reject, say, the Quenta in favour of the 77 Sil, or both of them in favour of the BoLT. Now, possible Tolkien wanted us to have one final version of the stories after he had rejected all the others, but he never got there, so we can have all the M-e writings together - but only if we reject the VR approach in favour of the FA. |
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04-14-2006, 07:52 AM | #43 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
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all hail the (fill in the blank) Book, or thank you, Monks
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As to LMP's query - VR or FH? I would have to waffle on that like Heren. For myself, it's more of an appreciation of the creative process. The author had the final say, and unfortunately, the creation in total was never completed. |
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04-14-2006, 05:41 PM | #44 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Davem wrote:
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I would argue that the varying versions of the Silmarillion primarily constitute a set of contradictory texts of the first class. There is no indication, for example, that when Tolkien wrote the 'Sketch of the Mythology' and its revisions (including the 'Quenta Silmarillion') he intended them to be merely a 'different tradition' than the Book of Lost Tales. On the contrary, all indications are that he intended the story told therein to replace that from the Book of Lost Tales. This is especially evident in the case of the 'Sketch', which was initially intended merely as a summary of the mythology contained in BoLT and was clearly not supposed to be an alternative tradition - and yet which tells a story that is different in many ways from BoLT. There are cases where one can make a good case for two versions representing different traditions - perhaps the most obvious example from HoMe is 'The Drowning of Anadune'. But one cannot view all the vast complex of contradictory Silmarillion texts this way. Or rather, if one chooses to do so, that is a creative, "fan fictional" way of viewing things. |
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04-14-2006, 05:48 PM | #45 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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04-14-2006, 09:49 PM | #46 | ||
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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It seems that my use of the latinate has resulted in tangentially inferred connotations. In other words, my "venerable recorders" wording got you thinking about monks. What if I had said "renowned loremasters" instead?
But as to the tangent. It should be noted that novices were never allowed into the Scriptoriums of the monasteries to do copying. That was a high craft that was reserved for those who had proved themselves for their eye for detail and/or their "craftiness" with illuminations. No doubt there were errors, as they are inevitable; however, they were fewer than most of us have been led to believe, having been inured in the prejudices of moderns against medievals. Enough about the tangent. Quote:
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I appreciate the clear logic provided by Aiwendil: another useful distinction. Finally, as pertains to renowned loremasters: it must be remembered that the myth with which we are concerned, contained individuals who were thousands of years old and had memories that stretched back for eons. Galadriel is the best example. Cirdan and Elrond also come to mind. Any loremasters who copied from originals were most likely Elves themselves, and had at least one of these persons with whom they could check their facts. So the Translator Conceit as it applies to "fallible scribes" must be considered with these realities of Middle Earth taken into account. |
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04-15-2006, 03:37 AM | #47 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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04-15-2006, 10:05 AM | #48 | |
Itinerant Songster
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04-18-2006, 02:28 AM | #49 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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flick the reader on the nose in the end telling him that all of the story was 'only a dream'. 'Documentariness', declared in the very beginning of the book, is intended to help reader 'trust' the author (I, at least, felt something along the following lines: good, this is translation, that is, all of these really happened, this guy won't take me in and than tell me it was just a little girl's dream in the end)
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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07-01-2009, 10:51 AM | #50 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Interesting new angle on the subject - Adam Thorpe's new novel 'Hodd', which I'm currently halfway through.
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