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Old 09-29-2006, 10:31 AM   #1
Aiwendil
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Silmaril Silmarillion - Valaquenta

The Valaquenta (“Account of the Valar”) is the second of the two short works that precede the Silmarillion proper; it almost reads as a dramatis personae for the work ahead – or perhaps for the earlier parts of that work, wherein the Valar are the major characters.

The Valaquenta opens with a short restatement of some of the Ainulindale:

Quote:
In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Iluvatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him. In this Music the World was begun; for Iluvatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. And many among them became enamoured of its beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision. Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea.
All this (and in fact the next paragraph as well) has already been told in the Ainulindale. Most writers would probably not have bothered with these first two paragraphs, since the readers have presumably just read much the same thing. Why then did Tolkien put them here? One answer is that it lends verisimilitude to the text – if the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta were real texts, written by different (and possibly unknown) authors in the distant past, we would expect them to go over the same territory a little bit. But there is actually another answer as well: the distance between the two works is in fact not feigned; they were written (and re-written) at different times and in different contexts by Tolkien, who may not have ever intended them to stand back to back. In a sense, Tolkien’s writing habits themselves provided a sense of authenticity.

A question occurred to me as I re-read the Valaquenta for this discussion: why is it there at all? Most works of fiction do not devote a chapter at the outset to describing the characters. Why did Tolkien feel the need to stop the story and tell us about the Valar before he went on?

We learn some interesting details concerning some of the Valar here. For instance about Ulmo:

Quote:
At times he will come unseen to the shores of Middle-earth, or pass far inland up firths of the sea, and there make music upon his great horns, the Ulumuri, that are wrought of white shell; and those to whom the music comes here it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea never leaves them again.
I’ve always liked this idea, and I’m quite sure I’ve heard the distant sound of Ulmo’s horns when looking out over the sea. Again, we have the connection Tolkien draws between water and music.

Another detail I find interesting is the story that Osse, like Sauron, betrayed the Valar and joined Melkor for a time, but repented and was pardoned. Of course, Sauron did not repent – though it will be seen (much later) that he almost does at one point.

We also have tantalizing references to Olorin (Gandalf) and to Sauron, providing a subtle connection with LotR.

The Valaquenta was not originally a distinct work from the Quenta Silmarillion. It originated in the 1930 version of the Quenta Silmarillion (at that time called Quenta Noldorinwa) as a brief preamble. Only in the last major revision of the Silmarillion, in the late 1950s, did Tolkien break off the Valaquenta as a separate work. Tolkien’s finished text of the Valaquenta ends with the words:

Quote:
Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.
These words were removed by Christopher Tolkien in the published version and used instead to serve as the end of the Quenta Silmarillion. Nonetheless, it is intriguing to consider Tolkien’s initial placement of them. Why place these words in the Valaquenta?

Additional readings:
HoMe IV, “The Quenta” opening section (earliest version)
HoMe V, “The Quenta Silmarillion” chapter 1 (late 1930s revision)
HoMe IX, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion” (final version)

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Old 09-29-2006, 12:30 PM   #2
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Another good opening gambit for discussion, Aiwendil.

I write in haste to mention just one possibility about why we have two versions of the creation. This possibility does not negate the idea that it is told from two different perspectives.

Genesis in The Bible actually has two versions of creation, Genesis 1.1 - 2.4 and Genesis 2.5 - 3.24. In the first version, male and female are created co-equally in time, while it is in in the second version only that the female is made from the male's rib. Man is also created before the trees in the garden in the second version.

Whether Tolkien thought of this and emulated the biblical repetition I cannot say.

Fascinating that Christopher moved those words to the end of his Silm. If this is fairy story, those words do not suggest to me any eucatastrophe (thinking in relation to Tolkien's OFS only).

more later....
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Old 09-30-2006, 08:22 AM   #3
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I'm no Tolkien scholar myself, far from it - I only happen to love his world and the stories, and the stupenduos enormity of the scholarship and imagination that is put into it. So correct me if I'm wrong here, but when Aiwendil says:
Quote:
A question occurred to me as I re-read the Valaquenta for this discussion: why is it there at all? Most works of fiction do not devote a chapter at the outset to describing the characters. Why did Tolkien feel the need to stop the story and tell us about the Valar before he went on?
Doesn't her first speculation above the question, namely:
Quote:
One answer is that it lends verisimilitude to the text – if the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta were real texts, written by different (and possibly unknown) authors in the distant past, we would expect them to go over the same territory a little bit.
already answer this?

What I mean is that at least I have had the impression that Tolkien was writing these stories or tales as kind of actual accounts written by different persons in the world he had created. And those writers should have a history of their own and thence a knowledge (fair or bent) of earlier stories which they interwoved into their own writing.

Then it would not be a question about why Tolkien, the Author, decided to devote a chapter at the outset to things He had already told, but of his intention of making stories springing right up from a world he had created - like giving that world an autonomy to tell its own stories? Like if in RL-world histories one (calling her/himself only the compilator of the stories) piled up the stories of, say the Deluge, by first giving the Biblical account of it and then presenting the Qu'ran version of it (okay, a bad analogy, but I hope you see the point)?
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Old 09-30-2006, 10:07 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogrod
I'm no Tolkien scholar myself, far from it - I only happen to love his world and the stories, and the stupenduos enormity of the scholarship and imagination that is put into it. So correct me if I'm wrong here, but when Aiwendil says:
Doesn't her first speculation above the question, namely:already answer this?
I think it's a rhetorical question on Aiwendil (who is a him, I've always been led to believe...)'s part than something he doesn't really have the answer to.

From a purely textual viewpoint, in any case, as Aiwendil points out, the Valaquenta derives from the opening part of the Quenta Noldorinwa- one of the earlier forms of the Silmarillion as we know it. And, at that time, the Ainulindalë no longer existed as cohesive part of the main story (as it did in the Lost Tales), but was, essentially, to be considered its own work (if memory serves, actual work on the post-Lost Tales Ainulindalë didn't begin until about the time of the next version of the Silmarillion- the pre-Lord of the Rings "Quenta Silmarillion", in which it was considered a work apart. And since the Silmarillion didn't include an account of the beginning of time, it was appropriate to have some recounting of it as a part of it's first chapter: that which was broken off the in post-Lord of the Rings era as it's own work, the Valaquenta.

Which is but to go into detail about what Aiwendil said here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
In a sense, Tolkien’s writing habits themselves provided a sense of authenticity.
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Old 09-30-2006, 12:48 PM   #5
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Bethberry wrote:
Quote:
Genesis in The Bible actually has two versions of creation, Genesis 1.1 - 2.4 and Genesis 2.5 - 3.24. In the first version, male and female are created co-equally in time, while it is in in the second version only that the female is made from the male's rib. Man is also created before the trees in the garden in the second version.
I was reminded of the two creation stories in Genesis as well when I was thinking about the Valaquenta's repetition of the Ainulindale. Tolkien would surely have been familiar with the coexistence of the two stories in Genesis. There's an interesting difference, though - what's remarkable about the two stories in Genesis is that they are different. They actually seem to contradict one another. But everything that is said in Valaquenta seems to be quite in line with what is said in the Ainulindale. Of course, slightly different and contradictory versions of the creation story do exist within Tolkien's writing, but only if you compare works written at different times. It seems that Tolkien was rather intent on achieving a thorough consistency in his Legendarium, even among texts ascribed to different authors.

Actually, I have a question about Genesis that I've long wondered. I recall that scholars generally agree that Genesis as found in the Torah is actually an amalgamation of several different texts, and that this is why there are two creation stories. My question is how Christian theologians view this. Does the Catholic church agree that the text is an amalgam of different texts? How do they reconcile the two creation stories?

Nogrod wrote:
Quote:
What I mean is that at least I have had the impression that Tolkien was writing these stories or tales as kind of actual accounts written by different persons in the world he had created. And those writers should have a history of their own and thence a knowledge (fair or bent) of earlier stories which they interwoved into their own writing.
Yes, I agree with this. But my question is 'why include an account of the Valar at all?' I suppose a perfectly justifiable answer is 'why not?' But might there be a literary reason as well?

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Old 09-30-2006, 03:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
Actually, I have a question about Genesis that I've long wondered. I recall that scholars generally agree that Genesis as found in the Torah is actually an amalgamation of several different texts, and that this is why there are two creation stories. My question is how Christian theologians view this. Does the Catholic church agree that the text is an amalgam of different texts? How do they reconcile the two creation stories?
I don't believe that the Catholic Church has an official dogmatic approach to
"who wrote what" regarding the Bible. With regards to the New Testament, we're fairly sure that the ascribed authors actually did write what they were said to, but with regards to the Torah...

If we have any "official" position, it's that we accept the Moses tradition- but really, there is no official position, beyond that the Bible is God's Word: Inspired and Divine. Beyond that, I think you'll find Catholic Bible experts as diverse in their opinions as any Bible expert.

At least, insofar as I am aware. I'm fairly sure the Vatican, at any point, hasn't said "this textual theory is held to be dogmatically sound".

~Michael A. Joosten - Resident Catholic Geek~
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Old 10-04-2006, 01:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
I was reminded of the two creation stories in Genesis as well when I was thinking about the Valaquenta's repetition of the Ainulindale. Tolkien would surely have been familiar with the coexistence of the two stories in Genesis. There's an interesting difference, though - what's remarkable about the two stories in Genesis is that they are different. They actually seem to contradict one another. But everything that is said in Valaquenta seems to be quite in line with what is said in the Ainulindale. Of course, slightly different and contradictory versions of the creation story do exist within Tolkien's writing, but only if you compare works written at different times. It seems that Tolkien was rather intent on achieving a thorough consistency in his Legendarium, even among texts ascribed to different authors.

Actually, I have a question about Genesis that I've long wondered. I recall that scholars generally agree that Genesis as found in the Torah is actually an amalgamation of several different texts, and that this is why there are two creation stories. My question is how Christian theologians view this. Does the Catholic church agree that the text is an amalgam of different texts? How do they reconcile the two creation stories?
Whoops, forgot about this thread for a bit. It is interesting how different those two versions in Genesis are and how Tolkien's are so similar. That similarity would for me suggest he was determined not to appear to create a parody, as I believed he wrote once about why he had no Fall in his mythology. (I believe it was the Fall, although my memory could be faulty here.) Come to think of it, are there "Falls" in other mythologies?

I'm no theologian or biblical scholar, all's I follow are the theories as they affect narrative theory.

Formendacil could well be right about no official stand, although certainly there are hundreds of years of needling over the issue, from all sides. There's a discussion of Biblical inspiration here at the Catholic Ecyclopedia , although I don't think that an online encyclopedia has the full patent on church infallibility. It's not so much about who wrote what as about the concept of divine inspiration.

There seems to be a sense that Inspiration (and what that involves) does not violate the free will of the person who receives the inspiration, so that the writers remain the people they are with their individual characteristics as writers. There is much talk back and forth about specific literal inspiration and more general inspiration. I certainly wouldn't think that Tolkien would have ascribed to the idea that word for word the Bible was dictated from on high--far too simple an idea for a man who was so aware of human creativity. The Bible, of course, is not the sole source of God's word for Catholics, so I assume that Tolkien also would not have regarded it that. But then I'm not a mind reader of authors. Only of texts.
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:17 AM   #8
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It's interesting that almost all of the discussion about the Valaquenta to this point has revolved around the first two paragraphs. Anyway, here are some observations that I had, that maybe will spark some discussion.

First, I wonder how Tolkien chose what his various gods would be the "god of". That is, most of them are elemental gods - the god of the air, the god of water, the god of the underworld. With the exception of Nienna, I don't think that any of the emotions are represented. Where's Tolkien's version of Venus? He also eliminated the gods of war and battle from the earlier versions in UT. I wonder why he did this - to keep the pantehon from growing unmanageably large?

Another question that jumped out at me when I was re-reading last night is this: What does it mean that Varda came out of the "deeps of Ea"? It's also interesting that Manwe and Varda are each more powerful when in the presence of the other (regarding sight and hearing).

About that, what's up with the Valar taking spouses? I mentioned in the Ainulindale discussion that this is one major departure of Tolkien from the Christian concept of angels, that "neither gave or were given in marriage". Since the Valar didn't reproduce, what was the purpose of these marriages? I wonder what Tolkien was trying to say (if anything) about marriage in this.

Which brings up another interesting point - not only are Tolkien's spirits marrying and not having any children, they do have siblings. Mandos and Lorien are brothers, and Nienna is their sister. Nessa, Tulkas' wife (and the only actual marriage ceremony of the Valar mentioned in the Silm) is Yavanna's sister. I wonder what this means.

So, food for thought.

edited for typos
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Old 10-05-2006, 02:15 PM   #9
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1420!

Aldarion brought up some very good points. Could it be that the marriages of the Valar are spiritual and not a physical marriage as most people think of when thinking about marriage? Could that also be the same circumstance concerning siblings? Just my thoughts.
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Old 10-05-2006, 02:37 PM   #10
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Doesn't this raise that gnawing question: Does anyone suppose they have belly buttons?
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchisiel
Aldarion brought up some very good points. Could it be that the marriages of the Valar are spiritual and not a physical marriage as most people think of when thinking about marriage?
I agree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commentary on the first section, Annals of Aman, HoME X
Note that 'spouse' meant only an 'association'. The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent.
In the Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X, it is noted that at that time the previous refferences to the existence of the Children of the Valar were removed - thus Fionwe becomes the herald, not son, of Manwe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Note 10b, Commentary on chapter I, Of the Valar
This is an aspect of an important development in the conception of the Powers of Arda, the abandonment of the old and long-rooted idea of 'the Children of the Valar, the Sons of the Valar'. It was still present in the Aannals of Aman, where the Valarindi, 'the offspring of the Valar', were 'numbered with' the Maiar (but they are distinguished from the Maiar). On the typescript text, the conception of the Children of the Valar was struck out.
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Old 10-05-2006, 06:56 PM   #12
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Interesting comments, Aldarion - and thanks for sparking some discussion of the actual content of the Valaquenta!

Quote:
First, I wonder how Tolkien chose what his various gods would be the "god of". That is, most of them are elemental gods - the god of the air, the god of water, the god of the underworld. With the exception of Nienna, I don't think that any of the emotions are represented. Where's Tolkien's version of Venus?
A very interesting point. Tolkien does not give us a god of love as the Greeks did. Interesting that the only emotion governed by a specific Vala is sorrow. It's true that many of the Valar - and many of the most important Valar - are "elemental gods". But it's interesting to note how their elemental associations are often extended - for instance, Ulmo is the Vala of water, but because of the nature of water in the Legendarium, he also functions to some extent as a Vala of music. Let me attempt to pair the Valar up with their "spheres of governance" if you will:

Manwe - Air, birds
Varda - Stars (perhaps more broadly, light?), Elves generally
Ulmo - Water, music
Aule - Earth, craft/skill, Dwarves, (to some extent) the Noldor
Yavanna - Vegetation (perhaps, more broadly, life?), the Ents
Namo (Mandos) - Death, doom
Vaire - Stories, weaving
Irmo (Lorien) - Visions, dreams
Este - Healing
Nienna - Grief
Tulkas - Strength
Nessa - Deer? Speed? Dancing? (Not quite sure)
Orome - Beasts, hunting
Vana - Youth
Melkor - Part of the power of each of the Valar

So the greatest of the Valar are associated with elements, except Melkor (though I recall someone in a long ago discussion putting forward the idea that he might originally have been associated with fire). And though Tolkien only gives us one emotion-related Vala, he also gives us Valar associated with such attributes as strength and youth. It's worth noting that Tolkien's earth-god is male. In the western world, we are probably more used to thinking of the earth as feminine, following the Greco-Roman tradition - with Gaea as the primordial (and female) earth-god. But Tolkien is by no means alone in making the earth-god male - Geb of Egyptian mythology comes to mind as a precedent. Also, Tolkien draws a distinction between earth itself (i.e. the rocks and soil) and things that grow on it.

Quote:
He also eliminated the gods of war and battle from the earlier versions in UT. I wonder why he did this - to keep the pantehon from growing unmanageably large?
This may have had something to do with it, but it seems to me that it was also part of a general 'cleaning' of the mythology (for lack of a better term) that took place over the course of its development. Tolkien's cosmos becomes more orderly as he develops it, and the Valar more wholly good. It seems to me that he eliminated the war gods because they were too morally ambiguous - too evil without actually being, well, evil. This may also have something to do with his elimination of the children of the Valar. Though the Valar remain different from Christian angels in that they marry, the Valar of the Valaquenta bear a much stronger resemblence to angels than do the Valar of the Lost Tales.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:32 AM   #13
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Tolkien

I was PMing last week with Nogrod about the connotations of flame and we discussed the various meanings of the word. One of the meanings might bear on this absence of a specific god or goddess of love.

Nogrod pointed out that 'flame' can mean 'lover', as in old flame (or current flame).

The upshot was that we wondered if the Flame Imperishable could be love eternal. Love would then be with Eru/Illuvatar and it would be this primal creator who was (is?) the god of love. The Void and any creatures therein would thus be devoid of love as Melkor failed to find the Flame there. (I think this would pertain to Ungoliant.)

Perhaps Nogrod would be able to expand upon this more fully. Would there be any other indications that Eru is the god of love? Clearly, not quite the amorous divinity of other mythologies.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:14 PM   #14
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Bb,

That idea of Eru as the "God of Love" is certainly different and intriguing, and I certainly never thought of that before.

Another possibility, and these are random thoughts thrown out. Perhaps there's not a single "god of love" because different Valar share various attributes which, when taken together, help to define"love". In that scenario, perhaps Eru is the distant father who allows his children to make mistakes and learn. There is undoubtedly love there, yet it seems so removed.

I've also thought of Manwe and Varda as being the perfect model of a couple, sharing intimacies and respecting each other's abilities. Strangely enough, the other name that comes to my mind when I think of "love" is Nienna. It almost seems as if Tolkien often equates "love" with "tears" -- that pure grieving is one of the truest forms of love we can experience in a world that is so flawed. (Ok....I can't help thinking of his own childhood here.)

This is one of my favorite lines in the Silm:

Quote:
But she [i.e. Nienna] does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity and endurance in hope
It's so interesting to me that two of the most important themes of LotR--pity and hope--make their appearance here in the form of Nienna, long before Frodo and Sam (perhaps each the flawed but very human embodiment of one of these?) are even a glint on the horizon.

I also love this intriguing phrase: "The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world." Presumably that hints at the fact that, ultimately, there must be some form of help (perhaps some form of love itself??) that comes from beyond the world. Or is there another possible meaning for this?

What is missing, however, is erotic love....unless you assume that this element lies hidden within Varda and Manwe but is decently concealed from outside eyes.

Does anyone have any favorites among the Valar and Maiar? My own are Nienna and Olórin. I love it that these two were connected by Tolkien right from the start. Well, perhaps not right from the start, since this passage was added later. But I'm still glad it was put here. Indeed the passage on Olorin and even the last sentence on Sauron requires a knowledge of some of what happened in the later Second and Third Ages. Can we assume then, in a fictional sense, Bilbo did not translate and edit this portion until after Frodo's return?
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
Strangely enough, the other name that comes to my mind when I think of "love" is Nienna. It almost seems as if Tolkien often equates "love" with "tears" -- that pure grieving is one of the truest forms of love we can experience in a world that is so flawed.
Note that Tolkien also never fails to mention that in Nienna's grief is something good, whether it be the learning of pity and endurance, or the wisdom that is mentioned when she visits Mandos. That's something else that jumped out at me that I forgot to mention in my original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
What is missing, however, is erotic love....unless you assume that this element lies hidden within Varda and Manwe but is decently concealed from outside eyes.
But isn't erotic love and eroticism missing from the entire body of Tolkien's writing? It is a subject that he implies, or mentions the results of, without ever entering someone else's bedroom. Which strikes me as singularly British.

There's a thread over on the main Books board right now about CT preparing to publish a completed version of the Children of Hurin, which is said to contain much r-rated material, such as incest. However, if JRR's original style is to be preserved, the incest will be understood, but never directly seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
Does anyone have any favorites among the Valar and Maiar? My own are Nienna and Olórin. I love it that these two were connected by Tolkien right from the start.
Have to think abou that - I don't think I have a favorite, there is no god of woodworking (see my Avatar)... Yavanna's sort of the god of anti-woodworking...
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:26 PM   #16
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About eroticism....for the most part you are very correct. Still, when I read some of the early scenes between Beren and Luthien, I certainly have the impression of something going on, with just a thin translucent veil hanging down so that we only get the vaguest hint.

Still, that comes later so won't dwell on it here.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth
One of the meanings might bear on this absence of a specific god or goddess of love.
...
The upshot was that we wondered if the Flame Imperishable could be love eternal.
I think that Varda is quite close to what one could call a goddess of love, which would fit your above connection. On one hand, she is described as the most beautiful vala, most likely the most beautiful of all Eru's "offsprings"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the Valar, Valaquenta, Silmarillion
Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Iluvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy.
In most legendariums, the goddess of love is usually the one most endowed with beauty.

On the other hand, she is the lady of the stars, but, more specifically of the sun too. True, in the earlier mythology, the sun and moon were made from the last offshoots of Telperion and Laurelin, but in Myths Transformed a new version is given:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myths Transformed, II, HoME X
Now the Sun was designed to be the heart of Arda, and the Valar purposed that it should give light to all that Realm, unceasingly and without wearying or diminution, and that from its light the world should receive health and life and growth. Therefore Varda set there the most ardent and beautiful of all those spirits that had entered with her into Ea, and she was named Ar(i), and Varda gave to her keeping a portion of the gift of Iluvatar so that the Sun should endure and be blessed and give blessing.
According to the LotR Reader's Companion, by Hammond and Scull, The bridge of Khazad-dum chapter, this note is dated around 1946-8 (Chris couldn't date it at the time of editing HoME X). This would give a whole new meaning to Gandalf wielding the flame of Anor - in his case, the flame appears as pure, almost dirrectly linked to Eru, through Varda.

It is also worth mentioning that the elves were freed from most of the desires of the flesh, being masters of their bodies and urges - therefore enjoying love in its highest form - and their valie was Varda, again. So, in the end, we have the most beautiful goddess who is also the source of light and fire too (the sun being the ultimate expression of it) - in the light of your connection, I would call her the goddess of love too.
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Old 10-07-2006, 12:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
Does anyone have any favorites among the Valar and Maiar?
Ulmo for being unexpectingly compassionate and proactive, and Aule for being most like the Children of Illuvatar in heart and spirit.
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Old 10-07-2006, 05:42 AM   #19
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Leaf Love is a rose by another name

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
Strangely enough, the other name that comes to my mind when I think of "love" is Nienna. It almost seems as if Tolkien often equates "love" with "tears" -- that pure grieving is one of the truest forms of love we can experience in a world that is so flawed. (Ok....I can't help thinking of his own childhood here.)
. . .

It's so interesting to me that two of the most important themes of LotR--pity and hope--make their appearance here in the form of Nienna, long before Frodo and Sam (perhaps each the flawed but very human embodiment of one of these?) are even a glint on the horizon.

I also love this intriguing phrase: "The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world." Presumably that hints at the fact that, ultimately, there must be some form of help (perhaps some form of love itself??) that comes from beyond the world. Or is there another possible meaning for this?

What is missing, however, is erotic love....unless you assume that this element lies hidden within Varda and Manwe but is decently concealed from outside eyes.
Tolkien's pantheon of gods is so very different from the Greek and Roman ones--all the scrabbling, self indulgence, vanity, competition, fighting, and philandering is removed. Nor do his gods take on animal shape and forms, only human forms. I remember my childhood response to reading classical mythology, thinking how very like the worst aspects of human behaviour were those gods. Tolkien's seem an idealisation by comparison.

I think Nienna is his most interesting and original contribution to mythic divinity, although it is possible I am forgetting some of the divine characters from other mythologies. Certainly in LotR nothing gets accomplished without cooperation or sharing: success on Mount Doom needs both Sam and Frodo, the killing of the Witch-King employs both Merry and Eowyn.

Raynor has provided some interesting extensions to the idea of love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
I think that Varda is quite close to what one could call a goddess of love, which would fit your above connection. On one hand, she is described as the most beautiful vala, most likely the most beautiful of all Eru's "offsprings"

. . .

In most legendariums, the goddess of love is usually the one most endowed with beauty.
Once beauty is brought into the equation, do we need to consider Tolkien's comments on beauty and evil in OFS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OFS
The fear of the beautiful fay that ran through the elder ages almost eludes our grasp. Even more alarming, goodness is itself bereft of its proper beauty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
It is also worth mentioning that the elves were freed from most of the desires of the flesh, being masters of their bodies and urges - therefore enjoying love in its highest form
Given Child's observation about the absence of eroticism, I suppose we ought to ask a question about this hierarchy. Do the ancient mythologies have this value system of higher and lower forms of love? Is this valuation something in Tolkien's text or is it an assumption that Raynor is bringing to the text?
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Old 10-07-2006, 08:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth
Nor do his gods take on animal shape and forms, only human forms.
At least Yavanna takes a non-human form, that of gigantic tree.
Quote:
I think Nienna is his most interesting and original contribution to mythic divinity, although it is possible I am forgetting some of the divine characters from other mythologies.
The buddhists also have Tara, the divine aspect of compassion, with her male companion, Avalokiteshvara. In Christianity, in think that Mary, the mother of Christ, would also be a fit figure for this, seeing her imagery and prayers dedicated to her.
Quote:
Once beauty is brought into the equation, do we need to consider Tolkien's comments on beauty and evil in OFS?
Hm, I don't remember even a single elven woman using her beauty in an evil way; [interestingly enough, I have to think hard to remember a single evil elven woman.]
Quote:
Do the ancient mythologies have this value system of higher and lower forms of love?
In most Indian-related religions (hinduism and buddhism in particular), vairagya, detachement in all aspects of life, is highly estimeed; even in kaula and mishra, the non-superior branches of Tantra, spiritual development in a couple is not possible without detachment.
Quote:
Is this valuation something in Tolkien's text or is it an assumption that Raynor is bringing to the text?
There is this interesting refference in Aelfwine's preamble:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the marriage laws and customs of the Eldar, their children, and other matters touching thereon, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X
The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.
...
They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.
They seem to embody the kind of pure, untainted love, that Tolkien believed would happen between humans only in cases of saints, or later in life when the "sex cools down", and only in the rarest of cases between "ordinary folk" [- cf. letter #43 to Michael Tolkien on the subject of marriage and the relations betwen the sexes].
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Old 10-07-2006, 09:00 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
I was PMing last week with Nogrod about the connotations of flame and we discussed the various meanings of the word. One of the meanings might bear on this absence of a specific god or goddess of love.

Nogrod pointed out that 'flame' can mean 'lover', as in old flame (or current flame).

The upshot was that we wondered if the Flame Imperishable could be love eternal. Love would then be with Eru/Illuvatar and it would be this primal creator who was (is?) the god of love. The Void and any creatures therein would thus be devoid of love as Melkor failed to find the Flame there. (I think this would pertain to Ungoliant.)

Perhaps Nogrod would be able to expand upon this more fully. Would there be any other indications that Eru is the god of love? Clearly, not quite the amorous divinity of other mythologies.
How about thinking the Flame Imperishable as the symbolic combination of many things?

Of Passion

Not just sexual but of all forms of excitement that raises the body temperature, heighten the senses, alerts the brain and ultimately gives one the feeling of "being alive" And the experience of life would lead to more intimate interactions with the environment and give rise to self-awareness and sentience. Both which lacking, would never have resulted in higher intelligent lifeforms such as the elves, men, ents, orcs and other non celestial denizens of Arda.

Of Wisdom

This is a no-brainer. Light, especially flaming torches have always been the symbol of education and enlightenment. It would seem that we equate our primeval fear and lack of understanding of darkness (can this refer to the void???) to universal ignorance and since light "banishes" the dark, it would symbolize the gift of enlightenment succeeding ignorance. The old clinche "The light shows the way," applies most aptly here which leads us to the next representation of the Flame,

Of Guidance and Hope

We use light to illuminate our path so that we can see our way when it is dark or hazy. Indeed this is how we navigate from point A to point B. The path is always there to be walked/crawled/climbed/swam but it isn't always clear, therefore light from fire shows the way and hence it is a guide.

And when you know there is a path in life to take, that you can see the path clearly with light, then you have hope as opposed to being confusingly lost and utterly dispairing

Of Care and Nuture

Heat is an essential source of life. In the cold of night and during the harshest of winters, the warmth of a fire keeps us alive, cooks food and prevents wild animals from straying to close. It is a source of comfort and protection. And what of Sun? It also keeps us warm, ripen our crops and allows livestock to multiple and thrive. It is also another source of comfort and an assurance of life. Indeed we are like infants dependent upon the sun that is like a mother who nutures. In fact I just found out that in Germany during the olden days, people referred to the sun as a "she" due to these reasons!

and speaking of suns,

Of Fame and Glory

The sun is warm and nurturing, but on the flip side it can also be scorching and punishing - it has both classical feminine and masculine attributes. We are always in awe of the prowess of the sun and in many cultures that awe has translated into the desire to be viewed by society as being so powerful and reknown that people regard the egoistic one with the same awe, fear and respect as the sun itself. Once more many cultures associate the sun and its striking rays as the ultimate expression of martial and political prowess. In days of antiquity, soldiers wearing attires embossed reliefs of the sun were elite and great kings and lords used the fiery star as the symbol of their majesty and power on banners and heraldry.

Not too long ago, a powerful absolute monarch by the name of Louis XIV held Europe in awe, contempt, fear and undeniably respect. And he was called the Sun King.

Of Destruction

Fire burns and our fears of a hideously painful death and the lost of our possessions by flames are profound. And in the past without the advent of fire fighting equipment and methods, raging fires were near unstoppable and caused extended damage and death before they were extinguished. As such flames also came to be regarded as a symbol of utter destruction and the realization of fear.

Of Renewal

For thousands of years, farmers have realized that burned land was fertile (temporarily) and that some crops grew better on such ground than when the land is simply cleared off wild vegetation and left virgin. As such the slash and burn cycle of shifting cultivation started and the onset of fire heralded the arrival of new crops, harvest, food and life itself, before returning to flames again. As such fire came to represent the cycle of renewal.

Indeed the process of life and the universe itself seems to be a process of a cycle of renewal. People die and new people appear and replace them in the world. The sun sets but rises again. The tides rise and fall in pattern. And so what was, would come again.

Renewal. Just like the legendary phoenix of Asian myths that undergo an endless cycle of death and rebirth through flames and ashes.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:00 PM   #22
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Re-reading the discussion here, I've had some further thoughts about Varda.

What is Varda the "god of", as it were? Obviously, she's the "Lady of the Stars" and the star-kindler, and hence a sort of patron god of the Elves, the Star-folk. But I've been thinking about the passage that Raynor quoted:

Quote:
Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Iluvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy.
Perhaps, then, it would be more accurate to say that Varda is the god of light - not just star-light, but light in all its forms, both literal and "figurative". I put "figurative" in quotes because I like to read Tolkien with his admiration for Owen Barfield's theory of ancient semantic unity in mind. I summarized my understanding of this theory in one of the Hobbit discussions:

Quote:
To put it briefly, Barfield's idea is that over the course of history and linguistic evolution, there has been a fragmentation of concepts in human thought. He claims that, for example, the word spiritus in Latin was not a single word with various meanings (breath, air, spirit), but rather that the various meanings that we now distinguish were not then distinguished - so to the Romans "breath" and "spirit" were the same concept. So certain uses of words that we now see as metaphorical were not originally so; language, he claims had a pre-metaphorical stage.
So I think that when Tolkien says that Varda's power and joy is in light, we must take "light" to mean not just physical light but all the qualities that we metaphorically associate with light or "illumination" - we speak of "enlightenment", "casting light" on a subject, etc., and it is over this whole sphere that Varda is queen.

If we look at Varda as the Lady of Light, and not just of Stars, then she takes on a whole new importance in the Legendarium. For the concept of light is central to Tolkien's creation. In a sense, the Silmarillion can be seen as a story about light (please don't read the following if this is your first time reading the Silmarillion): Iluvatar entrusts his pure, unadulterated light to Varda; that light is put into the Lamps, which are destroyed; to replace them, the Valar make the Trees; Feanor captures some of that light in the Silmarils; the Trees are destroyed and the Silmarils, in which alone the pure light still lives, are stolen; the Valar make the Sun and Moon with impure remnants of the original light; the remainder of the story concerns the fate of the Silmarils; eventually one of these finds its way into the heavens so that a small fraction of the pure light shines again upon the world.

I will confess that much of my thinking along these lines is not original, but comes from Verlyn Flieger's book Splintered Light, which examines the central role of light in the Silmarillion and ties it very convincingly to Barfield's notion of semantic unity.

What made me think about this in connection with this thread is the role of Varda. If we see the Silmarillion as a story about light, and if Varda is the Vala chiefly concerned with light, then doesn't Varda become the central figure of the mythology? In a sense, doesn't she become even more important than Manwe? For that matter, doesn't Ungoliant (a being associated with darkness) become more important as well? In a sense, one might come to see Varda and Ungoliant as the major adversaries of the story, instead of Manwe and Melkor.

The problem is that the events of the story don't seem to support this. Ungoliant ceases to be an important character after Morgoth's return to Middle-earth. And while Varda is venerated by the Elves throughout LotR, it is Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, and Mandos among the Valar who are featured prominently in the subsequent chapters.

Interesting, though, that it is Varda and Ungoliant, two female characters, who are the queens of Light and Darkness.

Another point to consider is how, and if, the light that Varda governs is related to the Secret Fire. Are the two to be equated? Did Iluvatar give the Flame to Varda, over and above the other Valar? I think that Saurreg's analysis of the Flame Imperishable is very insightful - but I wonder how it relates to the theme of light that is so important throughout the work.
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:53 PM   #23
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We know Tolkien had a fondnesss of casting his female characters as extremely powerful, despite putting it down in print that who and who was the greatest. How else would we all think that deep down, Galadriel was far more powerful than Feanor, greatest of the Noldorin?

Varda, Arien, Melian and Luthien - those ladies mopped the floor with anyone!

As for Varda and Manwe, me thinks their pairing is akin to that of Melian and Thingol, of Beren and Luthien, and of Celebron and Galadriel. The males were in their society deemed the greatest (not so sure about Celeborn), but by what we read of the deeds of their fairer halves, the seems to be a great disparity in the balance of innate power between the couples.

Aiwendil also touched on the seemingly disconnected nature if Varda throughout the books as compared to the pro-activeness of Aule and Ulmo. Perhaps she felt less compassion for life in middle earth as compared to the lesser Valar's? I had the feeling that Varda was contented with the condemnation of the murderous noldrin and infact all life in Beleriand, and was somewhat preoccupied with her time in Valinor. Ulmo on the other hand, perhaps due to his far-reaching elemental nature felt the pains and suffering of the children of Illuvatar more accutely and thus was moved to compassion sooner and acted.

And so we come back to the point of Greatness. What is greatness? Who was the greatest? Was greatness measured through innate powers and position or through actions that shaped destiny?
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Old 10-16-2006, 06:04 AM   #24
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One fascinating thing about the Valar is the narrative superfluousness of most of them.

If we wanted the bare minimum number of Valar, for, say, a blockbuster film, how many are necessary for plot purposes?

Manwe
Varda (because of her significance as the one most revered by the Elves)
Ulmo
Aule (largely because of Dwarves)
Yavanna (marginally, because of the Two Trees)
Mandos
Nienna (because of her weeping over the Trees)
Orome (largely because of Huan)
Tulkas (whose part is major early on but quickly fades out)
(Melkor, obviously)

Even of these ten I've named, many, as I've hinted above, only occupy the stage briefly. Tulkas, for instance, is soon heard of no more, because the Valar, detached and inactive, no longer really seem to fit with his portrayal as a warrior unleashed. I always imagine the sad image of a domesticated Tulkas, bored and apathetic, maybe occasionally going out for a desultory run, by the time of the later Silmarillion.

As an introduction to the overall corpus of the Quenta Silmarillion - what we might call the Noldolante - the Valaquenta is, then, curiously ineffective.

Or is it?

Do we see the Valar, conspicuous by their absence though they might be, through the actions of the Elves and Men they've apparently abandoned? Is there something of Tulkas in the defiance of Hurin at the end of the Nirnaeth? Something of Nienna in her near-namesake Nienor? Ulmo in the songs of Daeron and Maglor?

Well, maybe. Or maybe, inactive though they are in person, the song of the Valar lingers in Beleriand.

***

Actually, one of my favourites among the Valar is one I did not list above. I was reminded when I reread this chapter of the beauty of the description of Este, spouse of Irmo, who is scarcely mentioned outside the Valaquenta. The peace and rest she offers is exactly what I'd seek if I were to go West. Not majestic Lights or mighty cities, just a quiet, soft grey garden of Lorien...
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