If they still had Gandalf...

[alatar]

Assume that all Nine of the Fellowship make it out of Moria and that they decide to go to Lothlorien. Also assume that all Nine decide to leave by boat as in the book. My first question, before we would deal with the events that (might) happen at Parth Galen would be:

How many boats, and who rides with whom?

Don't think that three boats would be adequate to take on the additional load of Gandalf. I think that four would be necessary.

Do Sam and Frodo still ride with Aragorn, or does Frodo and Sam pair up with Gandalf?

Aragorn and Boromir in one boat would be overkill, and we wouldn't want to stifle the budding relationship between Elf and Dwarf, and so I would propose that Aragorn would have Merry or Pippin and Boromir whichever one wasn't in Aragorn's boat.

Anyway, I'd have it as:

Boat 1 - F, S, G
Boat 2 - A, P
Boat 3 - B, M
Boat 4 - L, G

Would this affect how Boromir responds when Merry and Pippin are attacked at Parth Galen as he would then have 50% less exposure to the twain?

And would Aragorn, not required to be the leader, feel more disposed to going to Gondor and so buddy up a bit with Boromir?

As I have previously stated, one could do some mental gymnastics and work out a solution by which the events after Parth Galen all happen exactly as they do in the original story (in brief, have the Balrog accompany some Moria orcs and he and Gandalf take a dive over the Rauros falls).

My other questions regarding the surviving Gandalf would be, like mormegil, how long would the Fellowship stay in Lothlorien and also would Gandalf receive a gift?

Sorry for the unorderedness of the post.

P.S. Essex, haven't seen you in a while; glad you're back.

[mormegil]

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

Would agree. One of the problems with 'if' scenarios is that at what point do you start a completely new story? I've continually in my own rewriting (mental) tried to 'get back' to the original storyline as much as possible.

Like if we couldn't brainstorm a way to get Theoden healed, then I could write, "Then Alatar and Pallando, on a trip back from the East, stop off at Meduseld and break Saruman's hold on Theoden, just to torque Curunir off. They then went back into the East..."

It's like cheating.

[Essex]

All this goes to show how TIGHT and well worked the plot of LOTR is.

Alter one little thing, and the story is irrevocably Changed. in some cases first hand, and in others like dominoes.

e.g.

first hand

Frodo leaves an hour later from Bag End. - captured by wraith - end of story

dominoes

Hobbit's don't fall asleep on the downs - no barrow wight - no sword for merry - no defeat of witch king - frodo and sam then captured by orc hunters - end of story

first hand

Nob not going to loo for Merry outside the Pony - Merry probably killed by ringwraiths (this also has further domino effects, of course)

dominoes

gandalf doesn't tell radagast to speak to birds and animals re news - no gwaihir to isengard - no escape - no battle between gandalf and ring wraiths on weathertop and drawing off of 4 ringwraiths - probable defeat of aragorn and frodo and Ring captured - end of story


PS Alatar - cheers, been spending what time I have online recently on the Gallifrey Online Doctor Who forums. Yes, even MORE 'nerdy' than Lord of the Rings!!!!

[Glirdan]

I think what we would need to think about first would be these questions: What if the Balrog and the Goblins of Moria did come after the fellowship? What would happen? Would Lorien be burned? Would Gandalf die anyway? What would happen to the rest of the Fellowship? and What would happen to Galadriel and Celeborn?

These are all questions that I have been thinking about constantly and I can't really think of any solutions for them, besides the first question. The solution to that would be that the Balrog and Goblins DON'T follow them out of Moria, which should be an obvious solution.

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate any input on your answers for these questions.

Glirdy

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I think what we would need to think about first would be these questions: What if the Balrog and the Goblins of Moria did come after the fellowship

My big question is how the Balrog would get out in the first place - if I were a Dwarf, I would make entrances (or at least some of them) dwarf height so that those taller than men would have some discomfort entering...just how big are their doorways in that Smaug can run around at will?

Well, anyway, the goblins would have been put off by the light somewhat. The Balrog could have pursued the Fellowship, but then again, it may have been happy just driving them out of Moria.

Gandalf could have sealed the entrance of Moria against pursuit, and the strain of the same could have 'killed' him. He gets buried in the rubble and after some brief mourning, the Fellowship-1 goes to Lothlorien. Gandalf then could be unburied by the 'moles of Manwe' and thereby become Gandalf the White.

Would Lorien be burned?

Surely if Galadriel could withstand the might of Mordor, she and her people could withstand a bunch of orcs and a Balrog.

Would Gandalf die anyway?

Gandalf has to die; the story just isn't as interesting with him aiding Frodo's decision. Plus, when you initially read the story, you start really thinking as a major character dies - where's TTT?!? Does Gandalf survive the fall? What a 'cliffhanger!'

What would happen to the rest of the Fellowship?

Same as before, unless we would want to start a new story...you could have the Balrog pursue the Fellowship out of Moria towards Lothlorien, and Boromir could start imploring Frodo to use the Ring on the Balrog. Frodo of course would not do so, and the strife seen at Parth Galen could show itself here. The Balrog and orcs, finally catching up with the Fellowship, attack and in the disorder Sam and Frodo could become separated from the other members of the Fellowship. This could be Gandalf's plan - to allow Frodo to escape - while he and the others take on the enemy. The Galadhrim could show up unexpectedly and aid the good guys - even helping Sam and Frodo into boats? Again I would have Gandalf sell himself by taking on the Balrog. Both could drown in a river or something. Gandalf would be rescued by the 'fishes of Ulmo.'

and What would happen to Galadriel and Celeborn?

Surely nothing that would get them overly excited, as when you're as old as these two, you've seen just about everything twice.

[Glirdan]

Has anybody else thought of this question??? What do you think would have happened if Gandalf wasn't held captive by Saruman?

In my opinion, Gandalf would have made it back to Bag-End before Frodo and Co. left for Crickhollow and probably would have left as soon as he reached Bag-End seeing as he knew the Nine Riders were out and abroad. Therefor, they would probably have not left through the Dark Forest, never met Tom Bombadill (who was, sadly, left out of the movies) reached Bree earlier and possibly not have met Aragorn until later and by the time they reached Weathertop, they would not have ran into the Black Riders and Fordo would not have his shoulder wound. Then they would have reached Rivendell without any problems and this is where it gets tricky. Would they have left Rivendell before Boromir or Legolas or Gimli and Gloin or any of the others who were part of the Council of Elrond arrived???? I would really like to hear others opinion on this because this question has been burning in my mind since I reread the FotR.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Has anybody else thought of this question??? What do you think would have happened if Gandalf wasn't held captive by Saruman?

Problem with that senario is that Gandalf would never known to think Saruman was a traitor which would have horrible implications that could only be left to complete speculation.

[Glirdan]

How about this than: What if Gandalf guessed that, from what Radagast reported to him, that Saruman turned traitor.

OR

get rid of my other theory and start over with a different question which is: what if Gandalf sent the letter to Frodo himself? Than, he could have gone to Isengard and still have been held captive and then the rest of what I said in my other post happens except for the fact that Gandalf is not part of the group.

[AragornII]

So, if Gandalf doesn't know that Saruman is a traitor, then the Fellowship would probably have taken the Gap of Rohan over the Misty Mountains, thereby not even going to Moria in the first place. Now it could get even more interesting. We could have Saruman send out some Uruk-hai to capture them, and then instead of a batle with Moria orcs, it's with Uruk-hai, which would make the battle more interesting. Assuming they survive that, and Saruman for some reason doesn't pursue them (or maybe he does ), where would they go?

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by AragornII

So, if Gandalf doesn't know that Saruman is a traitor, then the Fellowship would probably have taken the Gap of Rohan over the Misty Mountains, thereby not even going to Moria in the first place. Now it could get even more interesting. We could have Saruman send out some Uruk-hai to capture them, and then instead of a batle with Moria orcs, it's with Uruk-hai, which would make the battle more interesting. Assuming they survive that, and Saruman for some reason doesn't pursue them (or maybe he does ), where would they go?

They would probably head straight to Edoras seeing as it's the closest place of refugee and this time they would be welcome because Boromir would be there and Gandalf wouldn't know what happened to Theoden and wouldn't know what kind of welcome they'd get. Very good thought.

[AragornII]

Do you think that Theoden would not have been as "sick" as he was? Or maybe it would have been before Eomer was banished. He might even decide to go with them!!! Hey, now there's a new idea. That could change tons of things. Now I have to think some more on this.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by AragornII

Do you think that Theoden would not have been as "sick" as he was? Or maybe it would have been before Eomer was banished. He might even decide to go with them!!! Hey, now there's a new idea. That could change tons of things. Now I have to think some more on this.

That would bring up new ideas, but this thread is devoted to Gandalf, not Theoden. Stay on topic. As for the part about Theoden not being as sick as he was, that's not true because no matter what Saruman would have looked to over rule Rohan and corrupting the King is one easy way to do it.

[Gandalf_the _white]

sorry if this is off topic but i always wondered wat would happen if Faramir had gone to Rivendell instead of Boromir? He wouldn't have been tempted by the ring and might of survived but then wat would Boromir have done back in Minas Tirith? Would he have protected Osgilliath like Faramir did?

[Gothmog]

Gandalf: This might interest you -->Was Boromir a mistake?

[Gandalf_the _white]

thnx that helps a bit

[Glirdan]

Yes it is off topic here but please, do join this disscussion. Nobody has posted here for a long time and it makes me sad because this topic is one that interests me greatly. There are so many things that have happened that you could change which would greatly change the outcome of the War of the Rings. Please, join in. I'd love to hear your thoughts on all this.

[Gandalf_the _white]

np I think that if Gandalf had survived Moria and the nazgul on the fell beast had still turned up he may have been able to completly destroy it not just its steed.

[Glirdan]

Hmmmm. That is possible because he's only fighting one Nazgul and not five like he did at Weathertop. The only thing (that has been disscussed many times before) is how would Gandalf turn into Gandalf the White. Perhaps at Amon Hen, he could have fallen trying to protect Boromir and then maybe Boromir would have survived. Or maybe he could have fallen off of Rauros somehow and then Boromir would have died. That is a very contraversial topic. I say that perhaps after fleeing Moria, the Balrog could perhaps have chased Gandalf and then they fought and both died there while the Fellowship fled to Lothlorien. There are endless possibilities with this question.

[Gandalf_the _white]

Or gandalf could have realised the balrog was chasing them and sent the others away in groups and got the balrog to go after him.
That would have been a big battle and he could have died and become gandalf the white here
BTW are we the only ones on this thread or something? lol

[Glirdan]

Well kind of yes. I think it's because everyone forgot about this thread...
Very good theory by the way. Maybe Gandalf and the Balrog could have climbed the Caradhras and fought there. The Balrog could have fallen again and Gandalf would have collpased and died like he originally did, on top of a mountain. Another theory I've had that's been put down was what if Gandalf never got captured by Saruman? What if he didn't go see Saruman when Radagast instructed him to?

BTW Gandalf, please speak in full scentences. Using abreviation is frowned upon here. As you hopefully noticed, the only abreviations we use are "BTW" and "LOL". Just a little friendly advice.

[Gandalf_the _white]

Sorry about that lol.
Well if gandalf hadn't gone to Sauraman ( its seems so obvious now Sauron/Sauraman!) then it probally means he would have already known that sauraman was a traitor. I think he already guessed that he had turned traitor but he needed some proof.

[Glirdan]

Tolkien does state (correct me if I'm wrong) a few times in the books that Gandalf had guessed that there was something wrong with Saruman. Your idea of him needing proof is a good theory, but again (correct me if I'm wrong again) he went there because he thought that Saruman knew some new information about the Enemy. Now to speculate even furher, what if Gandalf, after coming right back from Edoras after being captured, went straight to Bree and awaited Frodo there? What would that change? WOULD it change anything?

[Himilsillion]

I think that if Gandalf stayed with the Fellowship the Fellowship would have still broken up. Gandalf would want Aragorn to go and help with the coming war so Sauron would be distracted by the return of the king rather than finding the ring. I think that Merry and Pippin would still have been captured. I do not know whether or not Borromir would have fallen or not. Either way the Fellowship would have split up. Gandalf would have asked that Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and possibly Borromir to go save Merry and Pippin. After they save Merry and Pippin (if they could) they would not try to catch Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam instead they would go and aid in the war. Gandalf would have helped Frodo and Sam get into Mordor but after they got in he might disappear so that Frodo and Sam would meet up with Gollum. Gandalf would do this because he knows Frodo doesn't have the strenghth to destroy the ring by himself, he needs the help of Sam and Frodo's pity of Gollum. Frodo and Sam would have never met Faramir in Ithelin but, on the contraray they would not have met Shelob near Cirith Ungol. I think Gandalf would have tried to cross into Mordor over the Mountians of Shadow where the river Poros flows down. The crossing might be easier here because of the river. It is also here that he might have been "promoted" to Gandalf the White by Eru through Ulmo. Is this where he would leave Frodo and Sam as well? I think after Frodo and Sam get into Mordor the plot would be pretty close to the real plot.

[Himilsillion]

Something that I would not have thought of in my last post is that how would Theoden get uncorrupted from Sauruman? Gandalf would not have been in Rohan to save him. I think that after Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Borromir rescued Merry and Pippin they would go to Minas Tirith. Rohan would lie in ruin and Aragorn would have never gone through the paths of the dead and Gondor might not be able to win on the Plains of the Pellenor. So without Gandalf aiding in the war the war would not have gone as well as it did. The war would have been an easy victory for Sauron and it would distract him enough for Frodo and Sam to get to Mount Doom. Though maybe after Gandalf got his power-up and left Frodo and Sam at the River Poros Gandalf could have gone and aided in the war but, by then Rohan would be gone and Aragorn and company would already be in Minas Tirith and the siege would have already started and all would be lost. The fact that Gandalf would have not been in Rohan would have srewed up the entire war so I think that ever since the begining Gandalf would want all of the Fellowship to aid in the war except Frodo and Sam.

[Glirdan]

Awsome theories there Himilsillion.

I think another thing missing in there is how would they know that Saruman was corrupted in the first place? All of the questions and theories come back to the conversation with Radagast and Gandalf when Radagast first told Gandalf that Saruman wanted to see him.

So I propose we start our theorizing there and here's some questions for you guys. What would have happened if Gandalf didn't go see Saruman? Would he have gone back to the Shire and somehow still found out about Saruman's treachery?

To answer my first question, I think he would have went back to the Shire and told them to leave right away and told him then and there about Aragorn. Gandalf would then have made his way over to Rivendell to consult Elrond on this matter and then maybe, since he knows that Frodo is safe in Aragorn's hands and Elrond would know where he went to, he would go and see Saruman and then get captured. Elrond would then send Gwaihir to rescue Gandalf if Gandalf didn't return by the time Frodo arrived in Rivendell.

Now that raises even more questions which I'll get into later. But first I want to know what you guys think would have happened.

[Himilsillion]

If Gandalf would have never went to see Saruman he would go to Bree and meet Frodo and Co. at the Prancing Pony on time. There they would meet Aragorn and all six of them would proceed onto to Rivendell. He would not add any extraordinary haste to his travel because he would not know that the Nazgul were sent forth from Minas Morgul because he learned about the nine from Saruman in Orthranc right when Saruman revealed his treachery.

[Glirdan]

Ah, but see. That is where you are at fault. He did know about the Nine coming forth. He learned about it from Radagast, before he went to see Saruman. He would still add haste to thier journey and if they did get attacked at Weathertop, I think he would have somehow have stopped the Witch-King from stabbing Frodo. Thus, they wouldn't lose as much time as they did when he did get wounded. They would have had the Council sonner and probably would have left and yes Boromir would still have joined the Fellowship.

As for him going to the Prancing Pony, that is possible, yet I think he would have felt safer if he went to the Shire and told Frodo that they had to leave straight away. They would have reached Bree sooner, before the Nazgul even reached the Shire perhaps. They still would have met Aragorn and all six of them would have left for Rivendell. And seeing as they left early, there would be no fight at Weathertop and they would have reached Rivendell even sooner.

Now this raises some more questions, does it not? The most crucial would be "Would they have the Council of Elornd early?" What do you think?

[Himilsillion]

I think that the council of Elrond would have taken place earlier so that they could stay ahead of Sauron. Since Frodo wouldn't have been stabed they wouldn't have waited for him to recover to start the council. Since the council took place earlier the Fellowship would have departed earlier. Since they departed earlier they might have had better weather at Caradrahas. Would they have even gone thourgh Moria?

[Glirdan]

They might have, but now I'm going by the movie and not the books. No, I think they would have passed over Caradhras and have no need to go through Moria. Now this brings up a dilema, does it not? When and where would Gandalf turn into Gandalf the White? Because this is what the whole thread is based on, is it not? So, where and when? Possibly once they reached Rauros? He goes over the falls in a fight or something? Or something else?

[AragornII]

First, how do we know that everyone was there before Frodo and Co. came? By the movie, nobody came until after Frodo was healed. So, by the movie, even if he hadn't been stabbed, they still would have had to wait. Second, in the book, after the council they sent out scouts to find out was going on outside. They stayed in Rivendell for two months before they set out, so that three days or so wait while Frodo was healing wouldn't have made much of a difference. Third, even if they had set out earlier, they still would have hit bad weather on Caradhras because, if you go by the movie, Saruman was controlling the weather, and he sent the storm. I guess it depends on whether you're going by the book or the movies.

[Glirdan]

Saruman was controlling the weather, and he sent the storm. I guess it depends on whether you're going by the book or the movies.

Yes, it does depend on what you're going by, but I think we should be going by the books seeing as they were written by Tolkien where as the movie, even though it was very accurate, was not and is slightly innacurate. I understand that they had to change a few things in order for the general public (in other words, the non Barrow-Downers and other who've read the books before the movies) to understand what was going on.

I do agree with you that the three days would not really make a difference, except for the fact that if Gandalf did not listen to Radagast and go see Saruman and instead went back to the Shire and told them to leave right away, they would have gotten to Rivendell earlier. Now, a few people would already have arrived and they would not really need to wait for Boromir to have the Council and after they sent out the scouts, they could have left, still with Nine except maybe Gimli, Legolas and definetely Boromir would not have been in it. Elrond would have chosen people to go with them.

[Himilsillion]

Without Borromir on the Fellowship would the Fellowship have broken up? If the Fellowship didn't break up would Aragorn gone to Gondor and claim the throne? Without Gandalf fighting in the war would the war be successfull? Would Frodo be able to sneak into mordor with a company of nine companions? Would Gandalf be "promoted" to Gandalf the White? Lots of questions that my or my not need answering. As I have mentioned without Gandalf and Aragorn being in Rohan the story would not have happened the way it did. For one, Aragorn would have never went through the paths of the dead. Gandalf wouldn't have been able to save the corupted Theoden, reuntite the forces of Erkanbrand, or help defend the White City. Whithout the prescence of Aragorn and Gandalf in the war Sauron would have won.

[Glirdan]

I you look under Novice and Newcomers, I've started a new thread about that exact topic. What would have happened if Boromir didn't die, so please, join in the disscussion over there.