No crying in the rain - where's Disney?

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I was going through the films in my mind a couple of days ago and came to think about the sad and dramatic scenes in LotR and how they were done. Now, if Disney had shooted the films, wether they were animated or not, there would be this certain cheesy style to do every battle and death scenes and such. Lots of rain, crying and what's even better - crying in the rain.

If I recall it right, Helm's deep was the only battle scene with this typical "oh, it just starts to rain when the battle begins" phenomenon (besides, it was in the book too) whereas a dramatic scene like Boromir's death happened *gasp* in a sunny weather! I always thought that weather conditions reflecting a scene would emphasize the emotions in a viewing experience, like if something bad happens, then it must be at least cloudy. But what I realized was that a nice weather when Theoden died didn't prevent me from crying, it's quite the contrary.

How much do you think that things like weather, luminousness and such should be paid attention in a movie? Did you miss the "Disney style" or would you like to change something? What are your thoughts?

(ps. I don't intend to mock Disney, most of their films just have this characteristic trait )

[HerenIstarion]

like if something bad happens

In case of Boromir, something good happens - though he be deadly wounded, he repents, releasing himself from the desire of the ring [=power], ackowledges the authority of the King (again hinted at as a Christ-symbol figure). It is very well done in the movie, I believe - spectator is forced to tears on both sorrow and joy grounds. I just would that Aragorn/Legolas lament for Boromir would have been included too (hey, EE owners, is it in EE?) But one can't have everything, I suppose

But I'm off topic. My answer on topic is quite laconic - of course, such things should be paid attention to, but it should not be done in a garish way. From recently watched movies, to bring you an example of virtuous performance, I recall a duel with O Ren Shi in Kill Bill (part 1) in a garden. It snows, and blood shows on white garment of O-Ren,plus some kind of water pomp beats a rhytm to the fight. Sends shiver down one's spine, really.

[Mithalwen]

The weather matching the mood is "pathetic fallacy" ... but why do I have the idea that it should have been misty when Boromir died? The rain at helms deep, just happened... if I remember rightly .. New Zealand is like that...

[Boromir88]

Ungoliant, I think weather does have an effect upon "emotional" times. For a quick cheesy example, sunny-happy, rainy-sad. But, also you can look at the "seasons" and they too can be symbolic. Spring=Birth, new life, youth. Summer=Growing up, maturity. Fall=middle to old age. Winter=death.

If you look in the Appnedices, Gandalf dies in January, Boromir dies in February, both winter months. March 25th was the ultimate destruction of the Ring. If I'm not mistaken its during the late march month when we change from winter to spring. September (fall), we have the birthdays of Frodo and Bilbo, both considerable old. Frodo just reaching the age first time is 33, the age of "manhood" for the hobbits. Then when he departs from the Shire he's 50, and it was noted Hobbits find it odd how "active" Frodo was at this age. So not only weather, but seasons can be forms of symbolism, forms of a new birth, maturing, older days, then your death. Tolkien plays with this, and there are probably more examples but I think you get the point .

[Mithalwen]

Well if Gondor had been England a sunny mid-june wedding would have been really implausible ..... I had a job one summer based near a fashionable church for weddings - the number of women I saw shivering in pastel summer clothes, clutching bedraggled hats...

[Encaitare]

I just would that Aragorn/Legolas lament for Boromir would have been included too (hey, EE owners, is it in EE?) But one can't have everything, I suppose

Indeed we cannot, for it's not in the EE.

I think that when weather is relied on too much for effect everything becomes a bit cheesy. I mean, lots of bad things happen in LotR, and if the sky were to open up every time one of those things happened, our poor Fellowship would be soaking wet all the way through!

As the forces of Mordor grow nearer and Sauron's power grows, it becomes dark simply because of these things. In the book, the air is said to become dark and heavy, and the sun cannot be seen. In the movie, Frodo says, "The days are growing darker," meaning it both literally and figuratively.

I'm trying to, off the top of my head, think of times when it rains in the movies. The only example I can think of (aside from Helm's Deep, which has already been mentioned) is in TTT EE (I think). Just before Gollum finds Frodo and Sam, the two hobbits are huddles under their Elven cloaks to stay dry. Is this symbolic? Maybe. It probably was just to add to the general misery they were going through.

Another example of the significance of weather is in the Dead Marshes. All is foggy and -- for lack of a better word -- blah. They cannot see very far ahead of them, and are relying on Gollum to lead them safely through. This is also true for Frodo and Sam emotionally. They're more or less playing it by ear, since they have no definite plan for what they will do next, and have no alternative but to blindly follow their questionable guide.

Didn't we discuss this already? Or was that in the Books forum?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Symbolic Significance of Weather

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

You have made good observations, and thanks, Estelyn, for the link, it's quite an interesting thread! But you haven't really answered my questions. Or maybe I didn't make myself clear.

I assume we all agree that weather has some effect on our moods. If it's raining cats and dogs, you might feel a little blue (at least in case you don't actually love rain). So a proper weater may enhance a scene's emotionalism. On the other hand, it's the actors' performances (as well as the music) that can evoke the viewer's feelings.

From your posts I can get the feeling that you really don't prefer the "Disney-style". Ok, neither do I. So, perhaps it creates nice tension into a scene if the setting and surroundings aren't conservative.

I have the idea that it should have been misty when Boromir died

So would you like to have changed that part in FotR or do you think the sunshine worked well too?

[Boromir88]

This isn't on the Boromir part, but I thought PJ could have shown Theoden's death scene, better, with the whole weather bit and all.

The Battle of Pelennor Fields
"Farewell master Holybytla" he said. "My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their might company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!"

Land of Shadow
Light was growing behind them. Slowly it crept towards the North. There was a battle far above in the high spaces of the air. The billowing clouds of Mordor were being driven back, their edges tattering as a wind out of the living world came up and swept the fumes and smokes towards the dark land of their home. Under the lifting skirts of the dreary canopy dim light leaked into Mordor like pale morning through the grimed window of a prison.
"Look at it Mr. Frodo!" said Sam. "Look at it! The wind's changed. Something's happening. He's not having it all his own way. His darkness is breaking up out in the world there. I wish I could see what is going on!"
It was the morning of the fifteenth of March, and over the Vale of Anduin the sun was rising above the eastern shadow, and the south-west wind was blowing. Theoden lay dying on the Pelennor fields.

I've always had this great mental picture of the scene where Theoden dies, and the sun comes poking out, "breaking the dark clouds of Mordor." I haven't seen ROTK in a while, so I will have to see how they do that scene, because I think it's wonderful imagery. Anyway, plus, it sort of goes along with the Boromir incident. So, I don't mind it being a sunny day, as clearly, when Theoden dies the sun pokes out, eventhought it's his "death," it could symbolize a "glorious death," if you want to put it that way.

[Lalwendë]

I was going through the films in my mind a couple of days ago and came to think about the sad and dramatic scenes in LotR and how they were done. Now, if Disney had shooted the films, wether they were animated or not, there would be this certain cheesy style to do every battle and death scenes and such. Lots of rain, crying and what's even better - crying in the rain.

I wouldn't object to use of weather, atmospheric conditions and so on if they fit the scenes as they are shown in the books, and as such, the films did not meddle too much with that. In general, weather does add a good sense of mood to a film, and H-I gives a perfect example of this. But I would have objected most strongly to too much in the way of histrionics. Thankfully, I found that the films retained the gravitas of the books, i.e. deaths were portrayed nobly. the Grey Havens scene was a little over-egged for my liking, but I know most would disagree with me, and I can allow for a little emotion at the end of all things.

[Encaitare]

Well, when a character dies, strangely enough, I rather like it if it's bright and sunny -- it's a cruel twist of irony. Anyone ever read the Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane? Not the best book I've ever read, but it had some really good themes, one of which was how nature can be so beautiful while people spill blood in its midst.

Back on topic and to answer ungoliant's question about Boromir's death:

I believe it was actually a sort of dappled sunlight, broken by the shade of the trees. As H-I mentioned, Boromir did redeem himself by fighting to his death. So, just as his death was a mix of good (redemption) and bad (the fact that he... well, died ), the location of his death was a mix of dark and light.

[Nimrodel_9]

I agree with you on how the weather affects the mood of a scene, but personally, I thought Boromir and Theoden`s death scenes were dramatic enough. Besides, if it started raining every time some one died, it would be kind of lame.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Boromir88
"I've always had this great mental picture of the scene where Theoden dies, and the sun comes poking out, "breaking the dark clouds of Mordor." "
-----------------------------------------

The darkness, caused by Sauron, was actually more dramatically broken earlier,
and in one of PJ's big goofs, he missed that whole dramatic scene by portraying
Theoden's charge all in daylight:

Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it......but Theoden could not be overtaken.....His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song [another bit botched by PJ] , and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.

Oh, and in the movie, it did rain in Bree.

[Elanor]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Well, when a character dies, strangely enough, I rather like it if it's bright and sunny -- it's a cruel twist of irony. Anyone ever read the Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane? Not the best book I've ever read, but it had some really good themes, one of which was how nature can be so beautiful while people spill blood in its midst.

Excuse me butting in - haven't posted in many a long time, but this caught my eye.

I was recently watching the DVD of Doctor Zhivago, and listening to the commentary. There was a point made that either David Lean or Nic Roeg (who was involved in the cinematography) had been very keen to contrast the weather and lighting conditions with the action. This results in the bloody battle scenes being shot in bright sunlight, with beautiful light playing off the cornfields and the trees; and the love scenes being filmed in dull, grey light, sometimes with rain.

I believe that the contrast makes it all the more poignant. Boromir's death in bright sunlight worked really well, and I think it can become very trite if characters die, and sad scenes take place in the rain. (Although it is possible to go the too far in that way entirely, and have a happy moment take place in pouring rain, which characters then claim not to notice, à la Four Weddings... *shudder*)