The Man Behind the Translations - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Diamond18 · 01-21-2003, 05:51 PM

I came across this article in this Sunday's edition of The Wisconsin State Journal (it arrives at my library on Tuesdays; crazy, huh?). It's about the guy who did all the translations for the lines, inscriptions and lyrics in the movies. Since the website had some ads and typos, I'll paste it right here to clean it up: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Linguist Is A Specialist In Elvish The Uw Grad Student Provides Translations For Lord Of The Rings Movies. Wisconsin State Journal :: LOCAL/WISCONSIN :: C1 Sunday, January 19, 2003 by Susan Lampert Smith When the elves call David Salo, they generally use the phone or e-mail. OK, they're not really elves, just the writers for actors who play elves in the movies.But with the third installment of Lord of the Rings entering its final production stages, Salo is quite sure the phone will begin ringing again with questions on Elvish grammar and pronunciation.Salo, 33, is a UW-Madison doctoral candidate in linguistics, but more importantly, at least to movie fans, he's probably the world's leading expert on Sindarin and Quenya, the Elvish languages author J.R.R. Tolkien invented as part of the extensive mythology underlying the trilogy.For nearly four years, Salo has served as the official translator to the Lord of the Rings movie writers. He hasn't caused as many children's nightmares as the fiery Balrog or set as many female hearts afire as Aragorn, but his linguistic marks are all over the films.When the fearsome Balrog arises from the depths of the mines of Moria, the scary music in the background is a song Salo translated into Dwarvish (another of Tolkien's languages) warning that the beast approaches."It's actually sung by a chorus of 150 Maori," Salo said. And the hot human-elf love scene between Aragorn (actor Viggo Mortensen) and Arwen (actress Liv Tyler)?Salo came up with the Elvish dialogue:Arwen: "Renich i lu i erui govannem?" (Do you remember the time when we first met?)Aragorn: "Nauthannen i ned l reniannen." (I thought I had strayed into a dream.)"I asked them, So, you want some lovey-dovey stuff between Arwen and Aragorn?' " said Salo, who, like other Tolkien purists, points out that the love story between the two actually is recounted in one of Tolkien's appendices to the trilogy.In other places, Salo's writing is visible. He wrote the inscription that glows on Frodo's sword whenever the evil orcs are near. He researched not only the grammar of the inscription, but also the probable mythological history of the sword, which first appears in the book, The Hobbit."Maegnus is my name, I am the spiders' bane," is the English translation of the runes that appear on the movie sword.Salo also translated into Dwarvish, or Khuzdul, the runic inscriptions that appear on the walls of Moria, the dwarf stronghold inside the mountains. For Salo, working on the movie presented a multi-level challenge: the language needed to be firmly based on Tolkien's creations, to satisfy the purists and director Peter Jackson, who went to great lengths to keep the movies faithful to the original work. But the language also needed to communicate with non-readers."My goal was for people who had no knowledge of Tolkien to have an appreciation of the sounds of the languages," Salo said.Thus, said Salo, Quenya, the formal Elvish, used in proclamations such as Galadriel's farewell and in official histories, should sound noble and sonorous, while common spoken Elvish, or Sindarin, should sound "romantic, Celtic."Salo also had to invent quite a bit of language for the orcs, who are on the screen during the extensive battle scenes in "The Two Towers." But while his goal was to make the orcs sound "nasty and brutish," he also made sure their language adhered to linguistic rules."I actually had to create quite a bit of Orkish grammar," he said.Salo's interest in languages started early. He grew up in New Jersey and New York, the son of two anthropologists. He still has the copy of Rudyard Kipling's "Just So Stories" that he poured over as a boy; in the margins are penciled notes where he deciphered the meaning of runes found in the illustrations.He read Tolkien as a boy, and began his fascination with the languages and myths underlying the stories. After graduating with degrees in Latin and Greek from Macalester College in St. Paul, Minn., Salo moved to Madison with his wife, Dorothea, also a linguist.During the seven years between undergraduate and graduate school, Salo worked in his spare time to develop an understanding of Tolkien's languages. In those days, he had a contract to write background materials for a role-playing game based on Lord of the Rings. As a result of his study of Tolkien languages, he's written a 300-plus page grammar of the Sindarin language -- which traces origins and variations of words -- that he hopes to publish someday.He's made study trips to Marquette University in Milwaukee, which houses the Tolkien archives, and has become expert enough that he can point out where Tolkien made mistakes writing in his own invented languages."Just because you invented the language doesn't mean you're the best at writing it out," he said.None of this will help Salo much in his quest for his doctoral degree -- for that, he's making a study of Tocharian, a language spoken in medieval China. He said his professors probably aren't as impressed by his Lord of the Rings work as they would be by papers published in academic journals.Meanwhile, as a new semester begins, he's awaiting those phone calls as the production company works on the soundtrack for the "Return of the King." "It's not unlike any other translating job," Salo said, "except I have the luxury of not having a bunch of native speakers out there to criticize me."For more on of the invented languages used in Lord of the Rings, see <A HREF="http://www.elvish.org" TARGET=_blank>www.elvish.org</A> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Iargwath · 01-22-2003, 04:07 AM

Wow thats some excellent information there. I wanted to know who was behind all the elvish pronounciations in the films. Thanks for that Diamond18.

Diamond18 · 01-22-2003, 04:14 PM

You're quite welcome, Iargwath. One thing I noticed was the part about the inscription on Sting: Maegnus is my name, I am the spiders' bane. While that's really cool, and all, it doesn't make sense to me. Is Maegnus Elvish for "Sting"? I know "Maeglin" means "sharp-gleam", so it sounds like it might. But Bilbo named the sword, not the Elves who would have made the inscription on it. Know what I'm saying?

Lalaith · 01-22-2003, 04:36 PM

What puzzles me is that it was Bilbo who christened his sword Sting, not its maker. And why should there be a reference to spiders at the time the sword was made?Oh I know...Bilbo had the sword engraved at Rivendell. How sweet.

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-22-2003, 05:55 PM

Excellent post, Diamond. Thanks. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Salo, 33, is a UW-Madison doctoral candidate in linguistics, but more importantly, at least to movie fans, he's probably the world's leading expert on Sindarin and Quenya, the Elvish languages author J.R.R. Tolkien invented as part of the extensive mythology underlying the trilogy.For nearly four years, Salo has served as the official translator to the Lord of the Rings movie writers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There are some who might accuse Mr Salo of having "sold out". I thought exactly the same about the inscription on Sting when I read it, though. The spider connection surely comes from Bilbo's encounter with the Mirkwood spiders, hence he names it Sting. I doubt that it was used by the Elves primarily for despatching spiders: "EEK! Galadriel, get Maegnus - there's another one in the bath ..." And yet it says that he researched the "probable mythological history of the sword". Perhaps he's not quite the Tolkienologist that he's made out to be.[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ][ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Diamond18 · 01-22-2003, 06:08 PM

I wonder what sort of extensive research Sting would entail? Reading The Hobbit perhaps? Acutally, from the typo I had to fix (Queen = Quenya), it strikes me that Susan Lampert Smith knows nothing about Tolkien, so she may well have been stretching it with that statment.I suspect that perhaps Salo had Lalaith's suggestion in mind. Seems like something Bilbo would do...Elrond: "The magic of the Elves can engrave your sword, but only you have the right to name it, Bilbo Baggins." And yes, the minute I saw that article I thought, "Oh! I have to post this in the Barrow Downs!"

Orominuialwen · 12-03-2003, 07:35 PM

I got to meet him when he gave a talk at my local public library. He's quite a nice person. If anyone's interested here's a link to <A HREF="http://yarinareth.net/caveatlector/" TARGET=_blank>his wife's blog</A>.

01-21-2003, 05:51 PM	#1
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,561	The Man Behind the Translations I came across this article in this Sunday's edition of The Wisconsin State Journal (it arrives at my library on Tuesdays; crazy, huh?). It's about the guy who did all the translations for the lines, inscriptions and lyrics in the movies. Since the website had some ads and typos, I'll paste it right here to clean it up:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Linguist Is A Specialist In Elvish<BR>The Uw Grad Student Provides Translations For Lord Of The Rings Movies. <P>Wisconsin State Journal :: LOCAL/WISCONSIN :: C1 <BR>Sunday, January 19, 2003 <BR>by Susan Lampert Smith <P>When the elves call David Salo, they generally use the phone or e-mail.<BR>OK, they're not really elves, just the writers for actors who play elves in the movies.<P>But with the third installment of Lord of the Rings entering its final production stages, Salo is quite sure the phone will begin ringing again with questions on Elvish grammar and pronunciation.<P>Salo, 33, is a UW-Madison doctoral candidate in linguistics, but more importantly, at least to movie fans, he's probably the world's leading expert on Sindarin and Quenya, the Elvish languages author J.R.R. Tolkien invented as part of the extensive mythology underlying the trilogy.<P>For nearly four years, Salo has served as the official translator to the Lord of the Rings movie writers. He hasn't caused as many children's nightmares as the fiery Balrog or set as many female hearts afire as Aragorn, but his linguistic marks are all over the films.<P>When the fearsome Balrog arises from the depths of the mines of Moria, the scary music in the background is a song Salo translated into Dwarvish (another of Tolkien's languages) warning that the beast approaches.<P>"It's actually sung by a chorus of 150 Maori," Salo said. And the hot human-elf love scene between Aragorn (actor Viggo Mortensen) and Arwen (actress Liv Tyler)?<P>Salo came up with the Elvish dialogue:<P>Arwen: "Renich i lu i erui govannem?" (Do you remember the time when we first met?)<P>Aragorn: "Nauthannen i ned l reniannen." (I thought I had strayed into a dream.)<P>"I asked them, So, you want some lovey-dovey stuff between Arwen and Aragorn?' " said Salo, who, like other Tolkien purists, points out that the love story between the two actually is recounted in one of Tolkien's appendices to the trilogy.<P>In other places, Salo's writing is visible. He wrote the inscription that glows on Frodo's sword whenever the evil orcs are near. He researched not only the grammar of the inscription, but also the probable mythological history of the sword, which first appears in the book, The Hobbit.<P>"Maegnus is my name, I am the spiders' bane," is the English translation of the runes that appear on the movie sword.<P>Salo also translated into Dwarvish, or Khuzdul, the runic inscriptions that appear on the walls of Moria, the dwarf stronghold inside the mountains. For Salo, working on the movie presented a multi-level challenge: the language needed to be firmly based on Tolkien's creations, to satisfy the purists and director Peter Jackson, who went to great lengths to keep the movies faithful to the original work. But the language also needed to communicate with non-readers.<P>"My goal was for people who had no knowledge of Tolkien to have an appreciation of the sounds of the languages," Salo said.<P>Thus, said Salo, Quenya, the formal Elvish, used in proclamations such as Galadriel's farewell and in official histories, should sound noble and sonorous, while common spoken Elvish, or Sindarin, should sound "romantic, Celtic."<P>Salo also had to invent quite a bit of language for the orcs, who are on the screen during the extensive battle scenes in "The Two Towers." But while his goal was to make the orcs sound "nasty and brutish," he also made sure their language adhered to linguistic rules.<P>"I actually had to create quite a bit of Orkish grammar," he said.<P>Salo's interest in languages started early. He grew up in New Jersey and New York, the son of two anthropologists. He still has the copy of Rudyard Kipling's "Just So Stories" that he poured over as a boy; in the margins are penciled notes where he deciphered the meaning of runes found in the illustrations.<P>He read Tolkien as a boy, and began his fascination with the languages and myths underlying the stories. After graduating with degrees in Latin and Greek from Macalester College in St. Paul, Minn., Salo moved to Madison with his wife, Dorothea, also a linguist.<P>During the seven years between undergraduate and graduate school, Salo worked in his spare time to develop an understanding of Tolkien's languages. In those days, he had a contract to write background materials for a role-playing game based on Lord of the Rings. As a result of his study of Tolkien languages, he's written a 300-plus page grammar of the Sindarin language -- which traces origins and variations of words -- that he hopes to publish someday.<P>He's made study trips to Marquette University in Milwaukee, which houses the Tolkien archives, and has become expert enough that he can point out where Tolkien made mistakes writing in his own invented languages.<P>"Just because you invented the language doesn't mean you're the best at writing it out," he said.<P>None of this will help Salo much in his quest for his doctoral degree -- for that, he's making a study of Tocharian, a language spoken in medieval China. He said his professors probably aren't as impressed by his Lord of the Rings work as they would be by papers published in academic journals.<P>Meanwhile, as a new semester begins, he's awaiting those phone calls as the production company works on the soundtrack for the "Return of the King." "It's not unlike any other translating job," Salo said, "except I have the luxury of not having a bunch of native speakers out there to criticize me."<P>For more on of the invented languages used in Lord of the Rings, see <A HREF="http://www.elvish.org" TARGET=_blank>www.elvish.org</A> <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-22-2003, 04:07 AM	#2
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 237	Wow thats some excellent information there. I wanted to know who was behind all the elvish pronounciations in the films. Thanks for that Diamond18. __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

01-22-2003, 04:14 PM	#3
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,561	You're quite welcome, Iargwath. <P>One thing I noticed was the part about the inscription on Sting: <I>Maegnus is my name, I am the spiders' bane.</I> While that's really cool, and all, it doesn't make sense to me. Is Maegnus Elvish for "Sting"? I know "Maeglin" means "sharp-gleam", so it sounds like it might. But Bilbo named the sword, not the Elves who would have made the inscription on it. Know what I'm saying? __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-22-2003, 04:36 PM	#4
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,876	What puzzles me is that it was Bilbo who christened his sword Sting, not its maker. And why should there be a reference to spiders at the time the sword was made?<P>Oh I know...Bilbo had the sword engraved at Rivendell. How sweet. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-22-2003, 05:55 PM	#5
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	Excellent post, Diamond. Thanks. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Salo, 33, is a UW-Madison doctoral candidate in linguistics, but more importantly, at least to movie fans, he's probably the world's leading expert on Sindarin and Quenya, the Elvish languages author J.R.R. Tolkien invented as part of the extensive mythology underlying the trilogy.<P>For nearly four years, Salo has served as the official translator to the Lord of the Rings movie writers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There are some who might accuse Mr Salo of having "sold out". <P>I thought exactly the same about the inscription on Sting when I read it, though. The spider connection surely comes from Bilbo's encounter with the Mirkwood spiders, hence he names it Sting. I doubt that it was used by the Elves primarily for despatching spiders: <P>"EEK! Galadriel, get Maegnus - there's another one in the bath ..." <P>And yet it says that he researched the "probable mythological history of the sword". Perhaps he's not quite the Tolkienologist that he's made out to be.<P>[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]<p>[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-22-2003, 06:08 PM	#6
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,561	I wonder what sort of extensive research Sting would entail? Reading <I>The Hobbit</I> perhaps? Acutally, from the typo I had to fix (Queen = Quenya), it strikes me that Susan Lampert Smith knows nothing about Tolkien, so she may well have been stretching it with that statment.<P>I suspect that perhaps Salo had Lalaith's suggestion in mind. Seems like something Bilbo would do...<P>Elrond: "The magic of the Elves can engrave your sword, but only you have the right to name it, Bilbo Baggins."<P> <P>And yes, the minute I saw that article I thought, "Oh! I have to post this in the Barrow Downs!" __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

12-03-2003, 07:35 PM	#7
Orominuialwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Umbar, but before the corsairs took over. (Ave Maria University, FL, USA) Posts: 705	I got to meet him when he gave a talk at my local public library. He's quite a nice person. If anyone's interested here's a link to <A HREF="http://yarinareth.net/caveatlector/" TARGET=_blank>his wife's blog</A>. __________________ Gone for lentSeeyou at Easter! (And on Sundays too, maybe.)