Relative Powers

[littlemanpoet]

A certain rpg has got me thinking about this (not the first time).

I'd like to get it situated somewhat "officially" and systematically the hierarchy of Powers in Middle Earth/Arda, all the way from the top to the bottom; that is, from Eru to spiders and goblins.

Tolkien is the source for this.

I'll start with a list, which I'm hoping is more or less in order by greater power. ... I'll follow it with a "for instance" or two. I'm sure my list is incomplete. Feel free to add to it. At the top of the list will be individual entities, but lower down it will be groups.

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Tulkas
Aulë
Lorien
-
-
-
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
-
Sauron
-
Witch King of Angmar
-
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrog
Blue Istari
Radagast
-
-
Fëanor
Glorfindel
Finrod Felagund
-
-
Ent
Troll
-
Shelob
-
Beleg
Turin
-
Elf
Uruk hai
Warg
Human
Dwarf
Orc
Gollum
Goblin
Hobbit
Spider

*******************
For instances:

*We know that one Dragon would burn one Dwarf to a crisp; but 20 Dwarves were able to take out one Dragon.

*Gandalf the Grey defeated a Balrog

*Glorfindel died at the hands of a Balrog

What other "for instances" are there? I'm sure there have to be plenty. And surely I'm wrong on some of this. Tell me where, and show me how.

*******************

EDIT: [u]For those of you who are new to this thread that has already spanned 6 pages, here is a link to the Updated List, which reflects my thoughts after observing many great minds work through a lot of the issues raised by this topic. Enjoy!

[Eonwe]

I think Witch King should be somewhere lower. Or Feanor and some of the other elves a bit higher.

[Formendacil]

Interesting list you're making up there...

'twould be a bit much for me to get into everything listed here, so I'll deal with two positionings that I find somewhat incongruous...

The first is the positioning of Finrod Felagund below Glorfindel.

Finrod was an exceptional Elda. He was able to contest Sauron himself in a battle of music, and though he lost, it was not until after a great battle. Glorfindel, though valiantly fighting a Balrog, was still easily slain. It was not until after his reincarnation (and by reason of his reincarnation) that he began one of the "Great". And, for what it's worth, Finrod was also reincarnated.

The second is the positioning of Beleg at a higher point than Túrin Turambar, and I'll admit here to relying completely on a possibly faulty memory, but I seem to recall a line or two in either the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales stating how Túrin, at the height of the prowess was a greater warrior than virtually any Elf (I may be thinking specifically of the Saeros situation here...). All the same, I would personally like to have Túrin on my side in a battle rather than Beleg, if it came down to overall prowess.

[littlemanpoet]

Formendacil, I acceed to your well made points until they are proven false by yet greater efforts at erudition. I must say that I find it hard to countenance Túrin and individual Elves as above Ents, but, well, these were singular Elves, now, weren't they?

Eonwe, I appreciate your opinion, but I need some evidence before I'll make an alteration.

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Tulkas
Aulë
Lorien
-
-
-
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
-
Sauron
-
Witch King of Angmar
-
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrog
Blue Istari
Radagast
-
Túrin Turambar
-
Fëanor
-
Finrod Felagund
-
Glorfindel
-
-
Ent
Troll
-
Shelob
-
Beleg

-
Elf
Uruk hai
Warg
Human
Dwarf
Orc
Gollum
Goblin
Hobbit
Spider

[Bêthberry]

I suppose you assume Tolkien is extraneous to Middle-earth, otherwise you would have started your list with him?

And the eagles would be placed where?

[Glirdan]

Just got a question. What about the other Vala?? Where's Mandos and Yavanna?? Because they are of greater power then Lorien. If I'm correct, Yavanna is the second highest Valier, is she not? And Aulë, Ulmo and Mandos were of all greater power then Tulkas.

As for Hobbit, I think they deserve a place higher then Goblin's. After all, Bullroarer did invent a game after knocking off the head of a goblin. I also think that they should be in between Orc and Dwarf because of their feats, even if they were few.

I believe that Ungoliant deserves a place higher up. After all, she did almost kill Morgoth.

I can't think of anything else other than the remianig Valar (Vana, Nessa, etc.) and they all do deserve a high place. They are Valar.

Oh, wait!! I've just remembered a few Maiar. Eonwe, Osse and Uinen all deserve a place in there for being a few of the Maiar named.

Wow, that's a lot!! Well, take what you want. After all, it is your list.

[Raynor]

Earendil slew Ancalagon the black, Thorondor marred Melkor's face, Echtelion killed the lord of the balrongs, Eonwe was the mightiest in arms in all Arda, Hurin was the "mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men". In the second prophecy of Mandos, Turin is said to kill Melkor, so let's give him some more credit .

[Kuruharan]

But maybe it was just the power of Luthien herself.

-and-

Maybe it was because Luthien was so beloved by the elves, that the Sons Of Feanor feared more the backlash, and were willing to wait their time, than be utterly vanquished by those who would be outraged by any assault.

I suspect her maniacal, bloodthirsty husband and the Ents probably had more to do with it than anything.

While I on the whole find this exercise to be a bit…hmmm…silly…I am curious as to why the Wargs in general are above the dwarves. The citable instance is when they chase the dwarves up the trees. However, Gandalf was right up there with them, most of the dwarves were unarmed, and they were grotesquely outnumbered (I suspect the unarmed bit was the decisive factor…the fact that Tolkien portrayed the dwarves as setting out on the quest totally unarmed is one of my greatest problems with The Hobbit, but that is a matter for another time). The dwarves did not seem particularly bothered by wargs in the Battle of Five Armies. The wargs didn’t develop a civilization…even the orcs had a rudimentary…uhhh…culture.

“But they were just animals and couldn’t manipulate tools,” you say.

"Exactly!" I reply.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I
“But they were just animals and couldn’t manipulate tools,” you say.

"Exactly!" I reply.

I know lots of cats who are quite successfully able to manipulate their human owners.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Originally Posted by Elven One

My comment still stands...she was not included yet because her placement among the males had not been discussed to that point. The list has rolling admission.

And Nessa was rolled before the other Queens, I guess. Well, she first appears in post #21:

Originally Posted by lmp

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Witch King of Angmar
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrogs
Thorondor
Eagles
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Blue Istari
Radagast
Glorfindel
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Goldberry
Elves
Uruk hai
Wargs
Humans
Dwarves
Orcs
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Goblins
Spiders
Hobbits

and then post #50 continues with the inclusion of Nessa but omission of Nienna.

Originally Posted by lmp

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Gandalf the White
Witch King of Angmar
Saruman
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Melian
Gandalf the Grey
Galadriel
Thingol
Elrond
Glorfindel
Balrogs
Nazgúl
Arwen Undómiel
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Círdan
Blue Istari
Thorondor
Eagles
Huan
Aragorn son of Arathorn
Radagast
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Frodo Baggins
Eldar: Vanyar
Eldar: Noldor
Eldar: Teleri
Legolas
Eldar: Sindar
Faramir
Humans: line of Elros
Gimli the Dwarf
Half-trolls
Eldar: Laiquendi
Eldar: Nandor
Eldar: Avari
Wargs
Dwarves
Goldberry
Denethor
Boromir
Humans: Gondorians
Humans: Umbarians
Humans: Rohirrim
Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.)
Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.)
Half-orcs
Uruk hai
Orcs
Meriadoc Brandybuck
Samwise Gamgee
Peregrin Took
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Hobbits
Goblins
Spiders

Then in response to your post #53 Nienna is placed, and appears in post #55:

Originally Posted by lmp

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Ulmo
Varda
Yavanna
Aulë
Oromë
Mandos
Lorien
Nienna
Tulkas
Estë
Vairë
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
. . . .

but she was omitted--most probably inadvertently I would assume given LMP's meticulous work here, unless he loves to throw out a few nets with which to catch some fish--in post #68 as originally posted 03.25.2006 at 12.10 am (my time I guess), to be reinserted in edit at 9:38 pm of the same day.

So, your argument that Nienna had not been included because because of your post #53 does not apply to my question, which pertained to a removal.

You know, I really agree with Child and Mr. U and SpM that this kind of thing seems to run counter to Tolkien's use of Frodo, but isn't it fun? I wonder if we could also do a parallel list about Spiritual properties, a hierarchy of the most true. By how much would it differ from this one?

Really, we do dance upon barrow tops.

[Rimbaud]

Why not go the whole hog and couch the debate in more sensible terms; ie 'who could whup whom?'

I'm fondly imagining that Tulkas would give Sauron the royal smack-down.

Or, more pertinently, I don't think you can place such disparate entities on any sort of coherent list. You could have an amusing debate on which Elf was the fastest or which Dwarf the dwarfiest, but comparing gods and mortals is a plan which aft gan aglay so often that the mice have given up.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As I can see the whole of this as a nice exercise, I would really like to hear the point of this all.

Sheer curiosity. Oh, you wanted something more than that? Hmmm..... well, how about this: I just really wanted to get a handle on how certain evil Maiar would compare in terms of spiritual hierarchy to, say, Blue Istari, and the whole thing sort of snowballed. Oh. Well, that's just another way of saying "sheer curiosity". Well, that's the point of it I guess. Sorry to disappoint.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

In the tradition of scholastics from the middle-ages, it is downright understandable to search for the "order of creation", where every being had its place in the order of things, created by the supreme craftsman.

Now you know how theology got its start.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But would Tolkien had such a thomistic view of the world? (He was catholic, to be sure, but anyway.)

You just answered your own question. Yes.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And how can you compare individuals with "races" or "subcultures", and put them in the same line?

The wording of your question seems to presume that you can't. I'm not having a problem with it. Care to describe what you think can't be done about it?

Originally Posted by Orcrist Wielder

Thank you littlemanpoet for at least putting our brethren on the list, but i still have to ask Where are the other dwarves?????

I hope that my latest edits satisfy your request a little bit?

Originally Posted by obloquy

Why does everyone have such a boner for the Witch-King?

I've dropped the Witch-King a certain degree, because it occurred to me that much of the Witch-King's seeming height of power at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was due to the power and will of Sauron so focused upon said battle. Nevertheless, the ring the Witch-King wears IS who the Witch-King is, and therefore must be understood as central to his power, which is (ahem) more than 'skinny faced'. So above Húrin he goes until you can persuade me otherwise, or else start your own list (if you like) as I've suggested already to others....

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I am curious as to why the Wargs in general are above the dwarves.

Point taken. I've lowered them, and added Ravens and Crows to a (I suppose) reasonable place.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You know, I really agree with Child and Mr. U and SpM that this kind of thing seems to run counter to Tolkien's use of Frodo, but isn't it fun?

Now you're talking.

Originally Posted by Bb

I wonder if we could also do a parallel list about Spiritual properties, a hierarchy of the most true. By how much would it differ from this one?

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

Why not go the whole hog and couch the debate in more sensible terms; ie 'who could whup whom?'

These last two quotes are akin, so I shall answer them together. This more or less started as a "who could whup whom", but as more information came forward it became obvious that spiritual power, cultural strength, and other considerations are at least as important as battle prowess.

And here is the Updated List.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I've dropped the Witch-King a certain degree, because it occurred to me that much of the Witch-King's seeming height of power at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was due to the power and will of Sauron so focused upon said battle. Nevertheless, the ring the Witch-King wears IS who the Witch-King is, and therefore must be understood as central to his power, which is (ahem) more than 'skinny faced'. So above Húrin he goes until you can persuade me otherwise, or else start your own list (if you like) as I've suggested already to others....

Are you familiar with Hurin? Have you read about him?

Additionally, what about Huan, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards? All of these folks are incarnate Maiar and would own the hell out of the WK. Cirdan is Calaquend (although Telerin [edit: some may have noticed this error]) as well, homeboy, so the WK's got nothing on him. Turin ruined Glaurung, so how do you reconcile that?

I won't make my own list, but I might rearrange yours a little.

I recommend:

- add Olorin to the list immediately above or below Sauron
- move Eonwe to right below the Valar and move Sauron and Olorin just below him
- add Arien above Sauron and below Eonwe
- drop Earendil below all the Maiar
- Ungoliante should be somewhere amidst the Valar, though who is above and below I couldn't say
- add Curumo (to distinguish between Saruman in his incarnate form and his natural form, as with Olorin and Gandalf above) and place him just below Olorin
- move the dragons below all the Maiar
- add Gothmog and place him below Curumo
- move the Balrogs to the bottom of the Maiar list but above all the others except for Glorfindel, Luthien, Thingol, Feanor, Finrod, Galadriel, and Galdor (who you need to add)
- remove The Ring
- what's Arwen doing on this list?

[Earendilyon]

Some minor nit-picks:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Nevertheless, the ring the Witch-King wears IS who the Witch-King is

IIRC, the Nine Rings were in Sauron's possession, not in the Nazgûl's.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, what about Huan, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards? All of these folks are incarnate Maiar

You're assuming here that Huan is a Maia, while there's no text supporting that idea, as far as I know.