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Old 08-29-2017, 03:39 PM   #1
Findegil
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3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles

This is the first draft of the chapter 3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles.

Our basis text is that of QS77 given on page 16-17. Were ever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
DE-SC-xx for Dwarves and Ents, Script, to document the backward development of the basic text, to the source text as given in HoME 11. I normally will not comment on this. The reasons for these changes should be easily found in HoME 11; part 2; chapter 13 and part 3; chapter IV

DE-EX-xx for Dwarves and Ents, Expansions

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

The title of the chapter might be explained best here: It is combination as is the chapter itself. The first part is documented as title of the replacement for the first part of the LQ 1 chapter 10, the second part is taken from the title given by Christhoper Tolkien to a appropriate chapter in HoME 11 documenting the text of Anaxartaron Onyalie.
Quote:
3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles
DE-SC-01<[b]Concerning the Dwarves; HoME 11[B] Of Aulë and the Dwarves
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
The Naugrim are not of the Elf-kind, ... that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilúvatar. DE-SC-02 <QS77 And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, ... But fearing that the other Valar might blame his work, he DE-EX-01{wrought in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth.
Now Ilúvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour that Aulë's work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech that he had devised for them, Ilúvatar spoke to him;}<Concerning the Dwarves; passage (b) {He} wrought in secret in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth. There he made first one Dwarf, the eldest of all, and after he made six others, the fathers of their race; and then he began to make others again, like to them but of female kind to be their mates. But he wearied, and when he DE-EX-02{[}had{]} made six more he rested, and he returned to the seven fathers and he looked at them, and they looked at him, and whatever motion was in his thought that motion they performed. And Aulë was not pleased, but he began to teach them the language that he had designed for them, hoping thus to instruct them.
But Ilúvatar knew all that was done, and in the very hour that the Eldest Dwarf first spoke with tongue, Ilúvatar spoke to Aulë;> and Aulë heard his voice and was silent. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no moreDE-EX-03<Letters; no. 212 {He had only one life, his own derived from the One}, and {could}thou can at most only distribute it>; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. DE-EX-04<Letters; no. 212 Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.> Is that thy desire?'
Then Aulë answered: ... Do with them what thou wilt. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?'
Then Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; ... and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy. DE-EX-05<Letters; no. 212 And as he withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Iluvatar. >And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: 'DE-EX-06<Letters; no. 212 Do you wonder at this? >Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. ... 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'
But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: ... the children of my choice.'
DE-EX-07{Then Aulë took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them to rest in far-sundered places; and he returned to Valinor, and waited while the long years lengthened.} <Concerning the Dwarves; passage (e) Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aule returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.>
Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever. DE-EX-08<HoME 11; substitution to QS $5. The Naugrim were ever, ... wherefore their race multiplied slowly, and now is dwindling.
>DE-EX-09<Letters; no. 212 This is the Elvish legend of the making of the Dwarves{; but the Elves report that Iluvatar said thus also: ... Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between the Dwarves and the children of Iluvatar}. And of the fate that Iluvatar has set upon the children of Aule beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing{, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it}. >Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. DE-EX-10<HoME 12; Last Writings The Dwarves add that at that time Aule gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers {(such as Durin) }should, at the end of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of his own body,[Footnote to the text: The flesh of Dwarves is reported to have been far slower to decay or become corrupted than that of Men. (Elvish bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrated and vanished.)] at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again{.}[Footnote to the text: What effect would this have on the succession? Probably this 'return' would only occur when by some chance or other the reigning king had no son. The Dwarves were very unprolific and this no doubt happened fairly often.DE-EX-11<HoME 12; Last Writings {... the}The reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings {- e.g. especially Durin - }is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King {Durin (say) }to which at intervals his spirit would return. But the relations of the Dwarves to the Valar and especially to the Vala Aule are (as it seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men.]>{They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin} and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Dúrin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.>DE-EX-12<HoME 12; Last Writings Of these Durins the Dwarves reported that they retained memory of their former lives as Kings, as real, and yet naturally as incomplete, as if they had been consecutive years of life in one person.[Footnote to the text: Yet it is said that their memories were clearer and fuller of the far-off days.]
How this could come to pass the Elves did not know; nor would the Dwarves tell them much more of the matter.[Footnote to the text: That the Elves ever came to know so much (though only at a time when the vigour of both their races was declining) is thought to be due to the strange and unique friendship which arose between Gimli and Legolas. Indeed most of the references to Dwarvish history in Elvish records are marked with 'so said Legolas'.]>DE-SC-03 <HoME 11
Anaxartaron Onyalie
Of the Ents and the Eagles
><QS77 Now when Aulë laboured in the making of the Dwarves he kept this work hidden from the other Valar; ... Many a tree shall feel the bite of their iron without pity.'
But Aulë answered: ... without respect or without gratitude.'
'Not unless Melkor darken their hearts,' said Yavanna. And she was not appeased, but grieved in heart, fearing what might be done upon Middle-earth in days to come. Therefore she went before Manwë, and she did not DE-SC-04 {betray}<HoME 11 bewray> the counsel of Aulë, but she said: 'King of Arda, is it true, as Aulë hath said to me, that the Children when they come shall have dominion over all the things of my labour, to do as they will therewith?'
'It is true,' ... the teaching of Aulë?'
Then Yavanna was silent ... be free from the dominion of others?'
'If thou hadst thy will ... thou hold dearest?'
'All have their worth,' said Yavanna, 'and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar DE-SC-05 <HoME 11 [Footnote: animals, all living things that move]> can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. ... and punish those that wrong them!'
'This is a strange thought,' said Manwë.
'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain DE-SC-06 <HoME 12 and the glitter of the Sun>.'
Then Manwë sat silent, ... and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of DE-SC-07{Ilúvatar}<Eru>; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.
Then Manwë awoke, ... and their just anger shall be feared. DE-SC-08 {For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.}’ But dost thou not now remember, ... the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'
Then Yavanna was glad, ... that the Eagles of the King may house therein!'
But Manwë rose also, ... as from the paths of the winds.
'Nay,' he said, ... But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.'
Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, ... whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'
'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.
DE-EX-01: Here I replaced a part of the text with an earlier passage. I know that this is risky, but I can not see why it should be better not mention the dwarf women here.
DE-EX-02: This was an expansion for grammatical reason done by Christopher Tolkien, which we should follow.
DE-EX-03: The draft for the Letter was contemporary to the text, but it adds some information missing from the text. In this case the possibility to ‘distribute once being’, which corresponds nicely to the ‘dispersion’ of Melkor.
DE-EX-04: I toke this up because it exemplifies that speaking does not mean that being has a ‘soul’.
DE-EX-05: Where if not here are we ever to hear the laughter of Eru?
DE-EX-06: This passage goes with the laughter I think.
DE-EX-07: Both the information about Durin being alone and of the elvish guess when the Dwarves awoke are want, from my point of view.
DE-EX-08: The info about the beards should not be lost.
DE-EX-09: I think that is a good way to introduce the false believe of the Elves and the Dwarvish believe of Mahal taking care of them.
DE-EX-10: Here I replaced a part of the text with a more sophisticated and probably later text.
DE-EX-11: To put this younger much short version into this footnote seems to be the best way to include the info it contains.
DE-EX-12: Both the info that the reanimated Kings did posses memories of their former lives and that all this info a marvel to the Elves and only was gained by the friendship of Legolas with Gimli I desire to give in our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I had to do the chapter all over again, since when I tried to find the sources of my original draft, I found other passages to be added. What as well came up was the fact that for the chapter 20 Of the Naugrim and the Edain not enough about the Naugrim is left. Some passages might be used, but I think we will place them rather in chapter 17 Of BEleriand and it's Realms.

P.P.S.: Please do not expact that I follow up with the next drafts in the same frequency. I put up chapter 1, 2 and 3 get the bridge to the already posted draft of chapter 4.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:25 PM   #2
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Silmaril Thoughts

I loved all your additions, and the Legolas thing adds a very nice Bilbo-ish dimension to everything. I had only a few comments.

DE-EX-10: I had a question.
Quote:
DE-EX-10<HoME 12; Last Writings The Dwarves add that at that time Aulë gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers {(such as Durin) }should,
Why is (such as Durin) removed? also in DE-EX-11.

DE-EX-11: There is a minor grammatical issue that arises out of combining different sources.
Quote:
Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again [.....] and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.
The italicized words should be changed to "his" and "name" respectively.

That was it!
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:20 PM   #3
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I actually noticed one more issue. If much of this lore is said to come from Legolas, then how can these be "the words of Pengolodh." I would say the Pengolodh subheading should be removed, since the Legolas bit is later, but that is a matter of debate.
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Old 08-30-2017, 02:56 PM   #4
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DE-EX-10 and DE-EX-11: I had some doubts about the naming of Durin here, but I am open to retake the mentionings of Durin. I would only remove the last:
Quote:
... but of the preservation of the body of a former King {Durin (say) }to which at intervals his spirit would return. ...
Here I think we should be more general.

DE-EX-11: gramatical issue: Agreed.

The Legolas/Pengolod issue: Our text is an amalgament of diffrent texts, so I wouldn't say it is a problem.

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Old 08-30-2017, 03:01 PM   #5
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awesome, looks good!
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:12 PM   #6
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I have forgotten to add one important bit from Of Dwarves and Men:
Quote:
<Concerning the Dwarves; passage (e) Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aule returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.>
DE-EX-07.2<Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age the names of the places where each of the Seven Ancestors had 'awakened' were remembered; but only two of them were known to Elves and Men of the West: the most westerly, the awakening place of the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams; and that of the ancestor of the Longbeards,[Footnote to the text: He alone had no companions. DE-EX-07.3{; cf. 'he slept alone' (III.352). [The reference is to the beginning of Appendix A, III. The passage in the text is difficult to interpret. My father refers here to four places of awakening of the Seven Ancestors of the Dwarves: those of 'the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams', 'the ancestor of the Longbeards', 'the Ironfists and Stiffbeards', and 'the Blacklocks and Stonefoots'. (None of these names of the other six kindreds of the Dwarves has ever been given before. Since the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams awoke in the Ered Lindon, these kindreds must be presumed to be the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost.) It seems that he was here referring to Durin's having 'slept alone' in contrast to the other kindreds, whose Fathers were laid to sleep in pairs. If this is so, it is a different conception from that cited in XI.213, where Iluvatar 'commanded Aule to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Durin the eldest who had none.' On the subject of the 'mates' of the Fathers of the Dwarves see XI.211-13. - In the margin of the typescript my father wrote later (against the present note): '}He wandered widely after awakening: his people were Dwarves that joined him from other kindreds west and east.{'; and at the head of the page he suggested that the legend of the Making of the Dwarves should be altered (indeed very radically altered) to a form in which other Dwarves were laid to sleep near to the Fathers.]}] the eldest in making and awakening. The first had been in the north of the Ered Lindon, the great eastern wall of Beleriand, of which the Blue Mountains of the Second and later ages were the remnant; the second had been Mount Gundabad (in origin a Khuzdul name), which was therefore revered by the Dwarves, DE-EX-07.4{and its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks of Sauron was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orks.[Footnote to the text: [In the rejected conclusion of note 21 the place of the awakening of the ancestor of the Longbeards was 'a valley in the Ered Mithrin' (the Grey Mountains in the far North). There has of course been no previous reference to this ancient significance of Mount Gundabad. That mountain originally appeared in the chapter The Clouds Burst in The Hobbit, where it is told that the Goblins 'marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark, until around and beneath the great mountain Gundabad of the North, where was their capital, a vast host was assembled'; and it is shown on the map of Wilderland in The Hobbit as a great isolated mass at the northern end of the Misty Mountains where the Grey Mountains drew towards them. In The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A (III), Gundabad appears in the account of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs late in the Third Age, where the Dwarves 'assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could [find] from Gundabad to the Gladden' (the word 'find' was erroneously dropped in the Second Edition).]]} The other two places were eastward, at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad: the arising of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards, and that of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots. Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad. In times of great need even the most distant would send help to any of their peopleDE-EX-07.5{; as was the case in the great War against the Orks (Third Age 2793 to 2799)}. Though they were loth to migrate and make permanent dwellings or 'mansions' far from their original homes, except under great pressure from enemies or after some catastropheDE-EX-07.6{ such as the ruin of Beleriand}, they were great and hardy travellers and skilled road-makers; also, all the kindreds shared a common language.[Footnote to the text: According to their legends their begetter, Aule the Vala, had made this for them and had taught it to the Seven Fathers before they were laid to sleep until the time for their awakening should come. After their awakening this language (as all languages and all other things in Arda) changed in time, and divergently in the mansions that were far-sundered. But the change was so slow and the divergence so small that even in the Third Age converse between all Dwarves in their own tongue was easy. As they said, the change in Khuzdul as compared with the tongue of the Elves, and still more with those of Men, was 'like the weathering of hard rock compared with the melting of snow.']>
Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever. DE-EX-08<HoME 11; substitution to QS $5. The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, ...
Porbably we also should do something with the informtion from the footnote that 'other Dwarves were laid to sleep near to the Fathers'. But I hesitate about that in the moment.

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Old 09-05-2017, 11:17 AM   #7
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I would hesitate to chop up Of Dwarves and Men, as I have said before. I feel that by removing all the references to the Third Age, we are gutting an essentially complete work for no reason, especially when we can easily include it in its entirety in Volume II.
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:49 PM   #8
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I don't think that Of Dwarves and Men is useable complete in volume 2. If at all the essay would fit in volume 3. Of Dwarves and Men is in over all a linguistic essay. But its story content ranges from the awakening of Dwarves to the end of the Third Age.
But I anyhow think that the content is needed in many parts. Pushed in part 3 it is fully out of sequence. I agree that the forward references that are included are valuable. But the question have we to remove them all? In The Silmarillion we as well such forward references. Not over much but a few are there.

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Old 09-13-2017, 02:43 PM   #9
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Okay at long last I have made up my mind about the footnote concerning the additional dwarves add by Ilúvatar. I think they are needed. Therefore I propose the following:
Quote:
DE-EX-07{Then Aulë took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them to rest in far-sundered places; and he returned to Valinor, and waited while the long years lengthened.} <Concerning the Dwarves; passage (e) Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone.DE-EX-07.1 <Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12, Note 24 {and at the head of the page he suggested that the legend of the Making of the Dwarves should be altered (indeed very radically altered) to a form in which <Concerning the Dwarves; passage (a) But it is said that to each Dwarf Ilúvatar added {a mate of female kind,}>other Dwarves {were}that he laid to sleep near to the Fathers.> And Aule returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.>
The only other open question that I can see in this thread is about how we handle Of Dwarves and Men. I for my part can’t see how we could use the full essay in one place. The most essential parts are what we used here and the passage about the Longbeards and the Northmen in the second age and that about the Drûg. The information of the awakening places of the Dwarves could be told in retrospect, but I don’t see that we could bring the complete essay anywhere near to LotR, where the Drûg part would be helpful as in introduction for the people of the Gâhn-buri-Gâhn. The Alliance of the Longbeards and the Northmen from an essential part of the story in the early Second Age. But in that place we can not use the entire essay either. So for me it is clear that we have to split it and use the parts where they belong chronologically as good as possible.

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Old 10-09-2017, 06:59 PM   #10
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For this chapter, I produced two texts, separating "Of Aule and the Dwarves" from "Of the Ents and the Eagles".

The basic text is the QS77, with only a few alterations and additions. I used "AD" for the text "Of Aule and the Dwarves".

As usual:
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion

Quote:
<AD Of Aulë and the Dwarves>

AD-01<AD The Naugrim are not of the Elf-kind, nor of Man-kind, nor yet of Melkor's breeding; ... to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilúvatar.>

<QS77 It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; ...

Now Iluvatar knew what was done, ... And the voice of Iluvatar said to him: AD-02 'Why {hast thou}[have you] done this? Why {dost thou}[do you] attempt a thing which {thou}[you] know{est} is beyond {thy}[your] power and {thy}[your] authority? For {thou hast}[you have] from me as a gift {thy}[your] own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of {thy}[your] hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when {thou}[you] think{est} to move them, and if {thy}[your] thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that {thy}[your] desire?'

Then Aule answered: 'I did not desire such lordship. I desired things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Ea, AD-03 which {thou hast}[you have] caused to be. For it seemed ... Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by {thee}[you]; and the child of little understanding ... But what shall I do now, so that {thou}[you] be not angry with me for ever? As a child to his father, I offer to {thee}[you] these things, the work of the hands which {thou hast}[you have] made. Do with them what {thou wilt}[you will]. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?'

Then Aule took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. ... And the voice of Iluvatar said to Aule: AD-04‘{Thy}[Your] offer I accepted even as it was made. {Dost thou}[Do you] not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from {thy}[your] blow, nor from any command of {thy}[your] will.' Then Aule cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Iluvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'

But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: 'Even as I gave being ... but in no other way will I amend AD-05 {thy}[your] handiwork, and as {thou hast}[you have] made it, so shall it be. But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that {thy}[your] impatience should be rewarded. ... and until that time {thou}[you] and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to {thee}[you] as children; and often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.'

Then Aule took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them ...

<LQ And since they AD-06{came}[were to come] in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made them strong to endure. ... Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the re-making of Arda after the Last Battle.

AD-07<AD Now these Seven Fathers, they say, return to live again and to bear once more their ancient names>. {Now these Fathers, they say, were seven in number, and they alone return (in the manner of the Quendi) to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names.} Of these Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that Dwarf-kin most friendly to the Elves whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.

In the darkness of Arda already the Naugrim wrought great works, for they had, even from the first days of their Fathers, ...

The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long. ...

The father-tongue of the Dwarves Aulë himself devised for them, and their languages have thus no kinship with those of the Quendi. ...

In their own tongue the Dwarves name themselves Khazâd; ... and the Gonnhirrim masters of stone AD-08{; and those who dwelt in Belegost they called the Ennfeng or Longbeards, for their beards swept the floor before their feet}. The chief cities of the Khazâd in the west of Middle-earth in those days were at [Khazad-dûm], and at Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar, which are interpreted in the {Gnomish}[Sindarin] tongue Nornhabar the Dwarrowdelf, and Belegost Mickleburg, and Nogrod the Hollowbold. ... There battle later befell; but as yet the Dwarves troubled the Elves little, while the power of the Gnomes lasted.

AD-09Here end the words that {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] {spoke to me}[wrote] concerning the Dwarves, which are not part of the Pennas as it was written, but come from other books of lore, from the Lammas, the Dorgannas, and the Quentalë Ardanómion{: quoth Ælfwine}.>
Comments:

AD-01: This opening paragraph of AD was omitted from QS77.

AD-02: Christopher Tolkien says in XI that his father eventually settled on using the formal, "you", throughout AD, whereas QS77 uses "thou". I have reverted all instances of "thou" to "you".

AD-03: As AD-02

AD-04: As AD-02

AD-05: As AD-02

AD-06: Changed per Tolkien’s emendation to LQ1.

AD-07: Taking the later version of the statement about the Dwarf-fathers returning to life.

AD-08: The "Longbeards" were later the Dwarves of Khazad-dum, not of Belegost.

AD-09: Removal of Aelfwine.

For my text of "Anaxartaron Onyalië", with QS77 as the basis, I will only indicate the beginning, end, and changes, as the rest follows QS77.

Quote:
<Of the Ents and the Eagles Anaxartaron Onyalië>

Now when Aule laboured in the making of the Dwarves he kept this work hidden from the other Valar; but at last he opened his mind to Yavanna and told her of all that had come to pass. ...

Therefore she went before Manwe, and she did not EE-01{betray}[bewray] the counsel of Aule, but she said: 'King of Arda, is it true, as Aule hath said to me, that the Children when they come shall have dominion over all the things of my labour, to do as they will therewith?'

...

'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to EE-02{Ilúvatar}[Eru] amid the wind and the rain.'

...

And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of EE-03{Iluvatar}[Eru]; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.

...

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.
Comments:

EE-01: Per XI; ‘betray’ in QS77 was an editorial alteration of ‘bewray’.

EE-02: Per XI, as EE-01; ‘Iluvatar’ in QS77 for original ‘Eru’.

EE-03: As EE-02.

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Old 10-10-2017, 11:43 AM   #11
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This comparision is a difficult task. I will try to order the differences by occurrence and give some editing mark or some such as reference, so that the discussion might be at least easier to follow.

Happyly we both have chosen in this case the same basic text found in Sil77 page 16-17.

DE-SC-01 / AD-01: we added both these opening back in, but you toke up a bit too much. In your Version ‘It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Iluvatar.’ is redundant.

AD-02 to AD-05: I was not so clear about this changes. Was it really all instances that Tolkien changed? If you think so, we can take these changes up into our common version.

DE-EX-01 to DE-EX-07: All these expansions of my draft Aiwendil did decised against or did not consider.

AD-06: The change reporte here is done in Sil77. Therefore I did not mention it.

AD-07: In my version I created a much fuller account of the rebirth of the fathers with DE-EX-10 to DE-EX-12. But I positioned it differently.

In the darkness of Arda already the Naugrim wrought great works, …: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

DE-EX-07 / The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, ...: This paragraph from AD both have taken up into the draft.

The father-tongue of the Dwarves Aulë himself devised for them, ...: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

In their own tongue the Dwarves name themselves Khazâd; ...: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

AD-08: I did a change in this passage of course, but quite differently. See the thread about ‘The Siege of Angband’.

AD-09: I did not take up this reference to Pengolod, but we might consider it. BY the way was {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] a decision taken by the project? I can’t remember.

DE-EX-09 to DE-EX-12: All these expansions of my draft Aiwendil did decised against or did not consider.

Sub-title: Aiwendil used the English title first and the Elvish second, while I did it the other way around. Since both were written of difrent amanuensis typescripts, we are completly free to chose, or was an other idea beyond your choice, Aiwendil?

DE-SC-04 / EE-01: These change was done in both versions. So I assume we agree on it.

DE-SC-05: this footnote found in HoMe 11 explaining ‘kelvar’ was not taken up by Aiwendil into his draft.

EE-02: This change from Iluvatar to Eru I missed in my Version, so I agree that it should be made.

DE-SC-06: This halfsentence was omitted from Sil778 because Christopher Tolkien thought it might imply that the sun was already in existence when Manwë thought about the Ents. This might have been Aiwendils reason not to include it as well. But since that vision is anyway a look into the future, I don’t think the omission is necessary. By the way I wrongly dedicated the source here as HoMe 12, as a matter of fact it is HoMe 11.

DE-SC-07 / EE-03: These change was done in both versions. So I assume we agree on it.

DE-SC-08: This passage was marked by Tolkien for exclusion, but Christopher Tolkien toke it nonetheless up into Sil77. In my draft I skipt it, Aiwendil kept it. I am open to both. In the event it is staing the fact of Middle-earth history that the Ents were doomed to die out in the Fourth Age and the dominion of Men.

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Old 10-10-2017, 08:49 PM   #12
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A few quick comments for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
DE-SC-01 / AD-01: we added both these opening back in, but you toke up a bit too much. In your Version ‘It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Iluvatar.’ is redundant.
My goodness, what an oversight! You are right, I included that sentence twice in a row.

Quote:
AD-02 to AD-05: I was not so clear about this changes. Was it really all instances that Tolkien changed? If you think so, we can take these changes up into our common version.
Discussing the text "Of Aule and the Dwarves", Christopher Tolkien says:

Quote:
There are a number of insignificant editorial alterations in the published text, and among them one point should be mentioned: my father was uncertain whether to use 'thou' or 'you' in the converse of Aulë with Ilúvatar (in one case he changed 'you may' to 'thou mayst' and then reverted to 'you may'). In the end he decided on 'you', whereas the published text has 'thou' throughout.
So yes, it appears that Tolkien's decision was to use "you" throughout this dialogue, despite the fact that Christopher for some reason opted for "thou" in the '77.

Quote:
AD-06: The change reporte here is done in Sil77. Therefore I did not mention it.
That's fair.

Quote:
AD-09: I did not take up this reference to Pengolod, but we might consider it. BY the way was {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] a decision taken by the project? I can’t remember.
It seems that in the time since I wrote this draft, we changed our mind about this - based on 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals', we decided to go back to Pengoloð/Pengolodh (see here).

Quote:
Sub-title: Aiwendil used the English title first and the Elvish second, while I did it the other way around. Since both were written of difrent amanuensis typescripts, we are completly free to chose, or was an other idea beyond your choice, Aiwendil?
I don't think I had any reasoning behind this; just arbitrary choice.

The other points require me to look at things a bit more carefully, so I'll do that when I get the chance.

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Old 10-11-2017, 11:53 AM   #13
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AD-02 to AD-05: Okay, we take up these changes, but number them all. Also in DE-EX-04 we have:
Quote:
… thought be elsewhere, standing idle. DE-EX-04<Letters; no. 212 Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to AD-02.2{thee thine}< For consistence with Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 your> own thought. This is a mockery of me.> Is that AD-02.1{thy}<Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 your> desire?'
And I have a question: in the last instance of AD-05 you replaced ‘often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.' Is this corret? My feeling is that ‘your’ and ‘my’ would be correct, ‘yours’ doesn’t feels right at all. But that is based only on my feeling if I would add to it: ‘often strife shall arise between your children and my children. If that is true then ‘mine’ was used to corosponde nicely to ‘thine’. If we correct ‘thine’ to ‘your’ then shouldn’t we change ‘mine’ to ‘my’?

AD-06: I will include the edditng marker in the text, so that we can trak it.

AD-09: I think that we deciseded against using any diacritical signs in the normal text like ‘ð’. Therefore I assume it is Pengolodh. But in the case of Maedhros we have a late text of Tolkien naming him Maedros which was what we adopted. Looking up many of the references we have already included, I think I agree on taken this one up into our version as well, but I think it should go with the passages left of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to the end of ‘Of the Coming of the Noldor’

Titel: If your choise was arbitrary, I agrue that the Elvish should be first, since the English seems to be a kind of translation, or not?

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Old 10-11-2017, 12:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
And I have a question: in the last instance of AD-05 you replaced ‘often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.' Is this corret? My feeling is that ‘your’ and ‘my’ would be correct, ‘yours’ doesn’t feels right at all. But that is based only on my feeling if I would add to it: ‘often strife shall arise between your children and my children. If that is true then ‘mine’ was used to corosponde nicely to ‘thine’. If we correct ‘thine’ to ‘your’ then shouldn’t we change ‘mine’ to ‘my’?
No, it should be "yours and mine". "My" and "thy" correspond with "your" (these are possessive determiners, and cannot be used as predicate adjectives), whereas "mine" and "thine" correspond with "yours". If the word "children" were explicitly included, it would be correct to say "strife shall arise between your children and my children", but if "children" is left out, it must be "strife shall arise between yours and mine".

AD-09: OK. Personally, I don't trouble myself too much about things like ð vs. dh, as this is purely a matter of English orthography. We should, however, go with Tolkien's latest convention.

Quote:
Titel: If your choise was arbitrary, I agrue that the Elvish should be first, since the English seems to be a kind of translation, or not?
Yes, that does make more sense.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:25 PM   #15
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I've finally looked at the rest of the items.

DE-EX-01: I’m uncertain about this. I think there are three issues. First, the fact that Tolkien rejected this passage (and omitted any statement on Dwarf-women in the final version of this text), and second, the fact that some of the five passages here contradict each other, and it is difficult to tell which story has precedence. It is true, however, that of these versions, b, d, and e all seem to be more or less in agreement. Third, in ‘Dwarves and Men’, we have the note that ‘Durin slept alone’, in reference to the other six dwarf-fathers being placed in pairs. This seems to offer a different meaning for Durin’s ‘aloneness’ than that in the passages from LQ/‘Concerning the Dwarves’. Of course, it doesn’t directly contradict LQ/‘Concerning the Dwarves’ - Durin could have been ‘alone’ in both senses. But we might consider whether it implicitly suggests that the story of the six brides for seven brothers had been abandoned.

DE-EX-03, -04, -05, -06: Here Findegil combines the dialogue between Aulë and Iluvatar from LQ with that between them from Letter 212. I find myself uncertain about this, and I’m tempted to suggest that we should take one or the other. On the other hand, the additions are not very disruptive and it reads fairly well. So perhaps this combination is OK.

I think a word got dropped in DE-EX-04; it should be:
Quote:
DE-EX-04<Letters; no. 212 Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to AD-02.2{thee thine}< For consistence with Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 you your> own thought.
Incidentally, a small point: the change from ‘thou’ to ‘you’ comes from ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ (HoMe XI), not ‘Dwarves and Men’ as indicated in the marked-up text. Also, might I suggest that for convenience of reading ‘Dwarves and Men’ be abbreviated ‘D&M’ instead of spelled out fully each time?

DE-EX-07: This goes hand in hand with DE-EX-01, of course, and depends on whether we are going to retain the story of the six dwarf-women.

It feels slightly odd to mention the departure of the Elves across the sea here, since that has of course not happened yet. When this text was written, it was obviously intended to come much later in the Quenta Silmarillion. But I suppose it’s not the only case of forward-looking references, so it may be fine.

DE-EX-07.1: I can’t agree with this one. The source is Christopher Tolkien’s statement:

Quote:
and at the head of the page he suggested that the legend of the Making of the Dwarves should be altered (indeed very radically altered) to a form in which other Dwarves were laid to sleep near to the Fathers.
As Christopher notes, this is a very radical change, and I think it is a quintessential case for principle 2b - an unworkable projection. If Tolkien had developed this idea more fully, he would have had to say where these new dwarves came from - i.e. how and by whom were they made? Without that story, it is merely a projected revision. Moreover, it is not here said that Iluvatar is the one who laid them to sleep near to the Fathers, and it seems to me unwarranted to alter passage a of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ in this way.

DE-EX-07.2: In this long addition from ‘Dwarves and Men’, I worry more about the anachronisms. The whole passage comes very much from a later point of view. It does contain good information that I think we would definitely like to include somewhere, though. I wonder if it would work better later, when Dwarves first enter Beleriand and meet the Sindar. Of course, the ‘Third Age’ reference would still be an anachronism, but that could be either tolerated or removed.

Actually, this brings up a fundamental point that I don’t think we’ve discussed. We have so far assumed that we are following QS77 in moving the creation-story of the Dwarves to just after the building of Valinor and combining it with ‘The Ents and the Eagles’. But is there not something to be said for the option of following Tolkien’s placement of it in LQ? That is, not telling about the creation of the Dwarves until after the flight of the Noldor, when it is then told retrospectively? Of course, that would leave ‘Ents and Eagles’ somewhat homeless. I’m not necessarily arguing that we should do that, but we should at least think about it and be able to enunciate why we are following QS77 in this regard.

DE-EX-08: This is a debatable one - on the one hand, Tolkien left this information out of the revised version of this text, which normally I would say means we should consider it rejected. But on the other hand, in LotR appendix A we have closely matching information on dwarf-women, so it seems the ideas here were not rejected.

DE-EX-09: I don’t see much value in this addition. It doesn’t really add anything beyond what is immediately after stated about Dwarvish and Elvish beliefs.

DE-EX-10: I think this is good. But the footnotes (particularly the second one) strike me as very much informal commentary/speculation by Tolkien, and I think we may want to reconsider including them.

DE-EX-11: This addition seems completely redundant with what was said before, and I would remove it.

DE-EX-12: This looks good, and in this case I think the footnote is fine.

DE-SC-05: I missed this footnote, but I agree it should be included.

DE-SC-06: I think I’m still inclined to omit this half sentence. Yes, it’s true that it is explicitly looking forward in time, but Yavanna’s reference to the sun makes it sound as if the sun is something already known and familiar to both her and Manwë, which I don’t think can be the case.

DE-SC-08: On reflection, I think I agree we should omit this, as in Findegil’s draft, since Tolkien rejected it.

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Old 11-10-2017, 02:04 PM   #16
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DE-EX-01: I would say that simply logically, the Dwarf women would need to be there. If there were no dwarf-women that were laid to rest with the fathers, then the Dwarves could not have begun their race. It seems to me like a logical fallacy from Tolkien's part to suggest that they did not have spouses, and if he omitted it I cannot think that he was suggesting they did not exist, but rather simply chose not to mention them. Therefore, I think we can assume that the dwarf-women story was not rejected, simply because it cannot be rejected, on a simply logical basis.

DE-EX-03,04,05,06: I think it is a good combination, since as you said it reads well, and I would personally consider an actual text by Tolkien as a better primary document than the Letter. Fin's inclusion of the pieces of dialogue that are not in the other version seem like simply filling in the gaps, and I think it flows well.

De-EX-07: As I said above, I think we cannot reject the dwarf-women. In terms of forward references, this was a main point of contention between Fin and I in the inclusion of the D&M material. But overall I think he has convinced me that it is better to include it in its natural place, and a few forward references are not bad.

DE-EX-07.1: I think this argument makes sense, so I agree with you.

DE-EX-07.2: This addition contains a wealth of information that is definitely needed for inclusion. As it is, this whole chapter is a treatise on the Dwarves as a people, and I think it does belong here. If it does not belong here, then it belongs in the Third or Second Age material, but I think that is too late a placement certainly. I think losing the Third Age references as Fin has done is simple enough, and does not lose too much information that would be good to include. If we really decide the two minor points are worth including later we can do so as well, but I think we wont need to.

As for the placement of the chapter, I believe the reason for its inclusion here is to a) allow for a part 1 of the Ents and Eagles text, which assumes knowledge of the creation of the Dwarves and b) because the creation of the dwarves happens chronologically at this time, and therefore makes most sense to include here. If we include it later, it would be as a flashback, and then as you said, the problem of where to include the Ents and Eagles chapter becomes quite thorny. As it assumes the creation of dwarves is known, we cannot place it before that tale is told, which would mean it must be told sometime after the Coming of the Noldor. This is an issue, as it helps also to set up the Eagles of Manwe which come into play when Fingon rescues Maedros on Thangorodrim, and needs to be before it. Thus, I think we must stick with this placement of the chapter. It will make this chapter unusual due to its nature, but it will be unusual no matter where it is placed.

DE-EX-08: I am in favor of retaining the addition, since, as you said, the ideas were not actually rejected.

DE-EX-09: If you think it is redundant then I am not opposed to removing it.

DE-EX-10: While the footnote is somewhat off in style, I do think it contains information not found elsewhere which would be a bad thing to lose.

DE-EX-11: How is this redundant?

De-EX-12: agreed.

DE-SC-05: agreed.

DE-SC-06: I think yoou are right, as it makes the Sun look expected at the least, when in SM they struggle to think of what to do when the trees die.

DE-SC-08: agreed.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:39 PM   #17
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DE-EX-01: What is more important then the fact that b, d and e agree to each other is that these agrees to Letter no.212. Since Rhona Beare who recieved that letter was a leader of a group of Tolkien fans. It was clear to Tolkien that his answeres would be pronounced in that group. This is of course far from publication, but nonetheless giving the letter an extra portion of priority.

DE-EX-04: The missing "you" was a good chatch. I changed the source info and shortedn it by CD for Concerning the Dwarves and D&M for Dwarves and Men.

DE-EX-07.1: Okay, I can see your concerns. In stating that Eru added the other dwarves we would generate a fact in Middle-earth that has no source in Tolkien. And as much as I think this changed story makes a lot of sense, I agree not to use it.

DE-EX-07.2: I agree to the argument of ArcusCalion that the placement here of the chapter and this passaged from D&M fit best here. The conetent of the chapter must be shifted anyhow, since in its original place the first mentioning of the Dwarves in the narrative (in chapter 13 Of the Sindar) would come before the story of their making. We could of course shift this passage from D&M to the end of chapter 16 where the first encounter of Noldor and Dwarves is reported. But I doubt very much that its incooperation would be smother there.

DE-EX-08: If we would discard this passage because Tolkien did not take it up into his final version, we would need to form some text from LotR, Appendix to contain the information about the female dwarves. In other cases like that we prefered to restore the rejected passages, and I think that is here the better way as well.

DE-EX-09: I don't see that this is redundant with what follows. What I includes from that Letter is: 1. That what was told so far is the Elvish version of the story. 2. That Elves and Men know nothing of the fate of the fëa of the Dwarves after death. Only the second could be said to be redundant to the false belief that Dwarves return to earth and stone. But is that a statment about the dwarvish fëa at all?

DE-EX-10, second footnote: If, as Aiwendil thinks, this is Tolkien think with the pen, then taking the footnote as it is would change Tolkien's uncertainty to one of the author of our text. To avoid that we could edit out the uncertainty.

DE-EX-11: As ArcusCalion I think this is not redundant but complimentary.

DE-SC-06: In the later conception of the Valar it is unthinkable that they would not know about the sun before its making. They might not have precived the importance or greatness of that source of light, but even so the Vision of Eä cased before the dominion of Men began, I don't belive it cased before Men awoke. And anyhow the Ainulindalë was over all. All the Valar therefore must have been a rough idea about the history of Eä to come and must have include some idea about the sun. In addition Yavanna is speaking about Middle-earth and here words are reported by an unknown author in retrospec. So what ever she actually said in reffering to the light to come over that part of the world would in retrospec of the author be interpretable as the Sun.
And about not knowing what to do when the Trees are dead: It is one thing to know roughly what is the final result and quiet another to archive that result when the time for your action comes along, especially if (as we are told they were not) the Valar did not have a clear vision of the time scale of the Music and the Vision. It seems that none of the events in the history could be fortold by the Valar with precise timing.

DE-SC-08: Okay, we will restore that passaged.

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Old 11-12-2017, 06:28 AM   #18
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DE-EX-07: I found a contradiction that we must adress: In Quendi and Eldar, dated 1959-60, it is said that, the Dwarves 'claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there'. This is contradict, in a way, by the Passage (e) from Concerning the Dwraves, dated 1969-70, that we toke up into our text: "But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea." Even so we could argue that 'some think' as a qualifier is enough to make the contradiction bearable, but I would here rather use principle 2b and skip the second half of the sentence.

Beside that I will again break a lance for DE-EX-07.1. How do we think that with the 6 couples and one additional male and the reported unprolific behaevier of the Dwarves with in such a short time as given between the awakening of the Elves and the Eldar reaching Beleriand such a variation like the Petty-Dwarves would be reached? I think that their is no question that these additional Dwarves are needed. The question then is hwo we could take that info up into our text without stating unkown facts like who made these additional Dwarves.

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Old 11-13-2017, 01:56 PM   #19
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DE-EX-07, 07.1: For the first one, I think simply removing the second part of the sentence is the safest bet, like Fin suggests. As for the issue with the Dwarves propagating, by the old relation of YT to YS, there is a period of around 700 years from the awakening of the Elves to the time when the Vanyar and Noldor first entered Beleriand. I know we are not necessarily abiding by this timeline due to the uncertainty of the relations, but this is the timeframe imagined (any revisions only make this time period longer, so this is the shortest time frame possible.) I would say that 700 years is plenty of time for the Firebeards and Broadbeams to have exiled the smaller and more deformed of their race (i.e. the Petty Dwarves) and for them to have grown enough. Obviously having an entire race formed from a single pair of people presents a bunch of genetic issues, but as this is a fantasy world that may be overlooked. I would say 700 years is enough time for the pairs story to make sense.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:17 AM   #20
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700 years is for Dwarves not so much. Let assume the Fathers started at once to beget children, since each generation takes 100 sun years get children of their own, generation no 8 would be just born when the Elves entered Beleriand. If we calculate that 3 generations are alive at the same time and each generation would 1.5 times greater as the one before (which is a very high rate considering what we are told about the dwarves):
Generation 6 (the grandparants): 4 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 30.375
Generation 7 (the parants): 4 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 45.5625
Generation 8 (the children): 4 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x1.5 = 68.34375
And this is calculated for both Nogrod and Belegost together. How could they already push out a portion of this? And how could these develop to a smaller varity?

If at all this would function with the 144 S.Y = 1 V.Y. calculation, where generation 106 is just born when the Elves enter Beleriand.

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Old 11-14-2017, 10:37 AM   #21
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As for the smaller variety, random mutations occur in any generation, especially since the Dwarves are a very small gene pool. That there would be a portion of them born even in the third or fourth generation with mutations is not unreasonable, and that they would be ostracized is canon.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:20 PM   #22
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Okay, let’s have a bit more of these calculations:
Form AAm we learn that, the earliest time for the awakening of the father of the Dwarves is Valian Year 1050 (that is when the elves awoke). The Eldar enter Beleriand in Valian Year 1125. So the maximum time we have is 75 Valian Years (VY).

In LotR, Appendix A we are told that the Dwarves get their first children about the 100th year of the Sun (SY) of their life. That would mean that the average time between one generation and the next is a bit longer, but for the easier calculation let us stick with 100 SY.
In addition we learn: ‘The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third.’ In the ‘Line of the Dwarves of Erebor’ the greatest number of sons recorded for one Dwarf is 3. If that would be a general fact the race would not grow but dwindle. So we have to assume that earlier the Dwarves that married got more children, let us assume 4 sons of which 1.3 in average would marry and beget children on their part. (This is already a stretch, since it would mean 5.3 children in average for each couple including the daughters.)

For easy reference I will now call the 7 Fathers generation 0 (G0), their sons and daughters G1 and so on.

Now we are told that Durin had no wife and that his people were gathered from other houses. That means that Durin did take part in the propagation of his race only starting from generation 1 (G1) and that we have to split the total number of Dwarves starting from generation 1 by 7 to get the number of Dwarves in each House.

The split between the Petty-Dwarves and the Dwarves of the Ered Luin will not be taken into account by the calculation. It must have occurred early in the time period described above, but probably later then generation 2 and the gathering Durin’s people.

The mathematic:
A) The Second Generation:
We do not want the total number of Dwarves in that generation, we are only interested in the couples for producing the further generations: The prolific of spring of the 6 fathers plus Durin and his wife: 6 x 1.3 + 1 = 8.8
We will round that to 9 and start from that number after a time of 100 SY.

B) Assuming 1 VY = 9.582 SY:
75 VY x 9.582 SY/VY = 718.65 SY.
That means we have G7 as children, G6 as parents and G5 as grandparents. To calculate the total number of Dwarves in G5 we need the number of prolific couples in G4:
9 x 1.3 x 1.3 x 1.3 = 9 x 1.3**3 = 19.773
Total number of Dwarves in G5 is: 19.773 x 5.3 = 105
Number of prolific couple in G5: 9 x 1.3**4 = 25.7049
Total number of Dwarves in G6 is: 25.7049 x 5.3 = 136
Number of prolific couple in G6: 9 x 1.3**5 = 33.41637
Total number of Dwarves in G7: 33.41637 x 5.3 = 177
Total number of Dwarves alive: 105 +136 + 177 = 405
Total number of Dwarves in Beleriand and Ered Lindon: 405 x 2 / 7 = 116
I don’t think that is enough.

C) Assuming 1 VY = 144 SY:
75 VY x 144 SY/VY = 10800 SY.
That means we have G108 as children, G107 as parents and G106 as grandparents. Doing the same mathematic as above would yield 38.5 x 10^12 Dwarves in Beleriand and Ered Lindon, which is far too much. That means in this case we could go with fare more realistic procreation rates and would none the less come to realistic numbers of Dwarves.

Conclusion:
If we assume 1 VY = 9.582 SY we need the additional Dwarves laid to sleep near the fathers. If we assume 1VY = 144 SY we do not need them.

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Old 11-14-2017, 02:42 PM   #23
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Fin that was amazing kudos!!!

It appears that the issue of the Years of the Trees to Years of the Sun ratio is far more important than we thought. Hopefully it only becomes material in this instance, but perhaps we really do need to tackle the issue after all and come to a definitive answer on which is correct?

As for me, with the LotR appendix and the "Aman" essay, along with Tolkien's notes that the time before the Sun needed to be expanded, I think we have clear indications that the YT -> YS was 144 rather than ~10. The lengthening of time was proposed by him to give adequate time for the expansion of Men, but as we have decided to reject the Sun from the beginning or the Men awakening before the Sun versions of the story, this cannot apply. The Awakening of the Elves and their march would suddenly become much much longer than they were before, but only if we used the dates from AAm, which were based off of an older system, which certainly would no longer apply under the new conception. Thus, to me, it seems the biggest obstacles to the 1YT = 144YS is the time of the Sindar in Beleriand. If they existed (and the Noldor in Valinor) for hundreds upon hundreds of years, their society as the Noldor found it would appear to be far too scanty and unestablished for the time period allotted. On the other hand, we are told that Elves have few children, and do not necessarily marry young, so they increase their numbers very very slowly, which might account for it. Along with that, the Second and Third Ages make very little sense from a population distribution point of view, and they are indisputable canon, so there are clearly population-based flaws inherent in the Tolkien mythos. Should we simply agree that 1YT = 144YS without ever explicitly saying so? This would allow us to leave out the (risky) other Dwarves near the Fathers, as well as justifying a longer period before the stars (as was Tolkien's wish). Thoughts?
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:51 PM   #24
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I've been a bit under the weather for the past few days, and thus moving more slowly with this. But I may as well post what I have at the moment. A few more thoughts should follow soon.

DE-EX-01: You both make good points, and I agree the story of the dwarf-women was not rejected. The part that chiefly concerned me was that the possible re-interpretation of 'Durin slept alone' in 'Dwarves and Men' might mean that the detail of six dwarf-women, and Durin without a mate, might have been rejected. However, that detail was well-established, and I think much less ambiguous evidence would be needed to conclude that it was rejected. So I agree to use this passage.

DE-EX-07:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
I found a contradiction that we must adress: In Quendi and Eldar, dated 1959-60, it is said that, the Dwarves 'claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there'. This is contradict, in a way, by the Passage (e) from Concerning the Dwraves, dated 1969-70, that we toke up into our text: "But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea." Even so we could argue that 'some think' as a qualifier is enough to make the contradiction bearable, but I would here rather use principle 2b and skip the second half of the sentence.
'Concerning the Dwarves' is from c. 1958, though isn't it (The same time as LQ)?

In any case, I think that there is sufficient doubt expressed in both passages that they needn’t be considered to contradict each other. The Dwarves claim to have been in Beleriand before the Elves; others say that the Dwarves did not awaken until the Eldar departed over the sea.

DE-EX-07.1:
Quote:
Beside that I will again break a lance for DE-EX-07.1. How do we think that with the 6 couples and one additional male and the reported unprolific behaevier of the Dwarves with in such a short time as given between the awakening of the Elves and the Eldar reaching Beleriand such a variation like the Petty-Dwarves would be reached?.
In my opinion, it's still the case that the additional dwarves are an unworkable projection. The making of additional dwarves would undoubtedly have entailed significant changes to the legend as told in 'Concerning the Dwarves' and Letter 212. Which means that in my opinion, if the statement about the Petty-dwarves in 'Quendi and Eldar' is deemed to conflict with the story of the origin of the Dwarves, then it too must be rejected. However, I would still point out that it is (as far as I can see) only stated that the Dwarves claimed to have been in Beleriand before the Elves. This ties in nicely with the fact that - as we are about to say - this is the Elvish myth about the Dwarves’ origin. Perhaps in the Dwarvish myth there are additional Dwarves beyond the 7+6.

I can’t quibble with the calculations Findegil has provided, though I would question whether it is necessarily a valid assumption that the information about Dwarvish marriage and reproduction found in Appendix A applies equally well to the first Dwarves as it does to the Dwarves of the late Third Age. I could easily imagine that early in their history, Dwarves were more likely to marry, married at a younger age, and had more children.

As for 9.582 vs. 144 - as I explained in the other thread, I am now convinced that the 144 figure for the Elvish yén and the 9.582 figure for the Valian Year coexisted simultaneously, and that the idea of a 144 year Valian Year entered later and was part and parcel of the proposed revised chronology, with Men awakening much earlier. But I think it would be best if we can retain ambiguity on this.

All in all, then, I think that we cannot add these additional Dwarves, but must either:

a) reject the statement that Dwarves were in Beleriand before the Elves
b) accept the statement about the Dwarvish claim but deem in non-contradictory (either because it is only a claim or because we can imagine the early dwarves being more prolific than their descendants) or
c) somehow leave the text ambiguous so that even though additional Dwarves are not explicitly mentioned, nothing contradicts the possibility that either Aule or Eru added additional Dwarves

DE-EX-07.2: Yes, as I look more carefully at other possible placements for this material, I think I agree that this is the best place for it. I still find it a little awkward that it jumps forward to talk about the awakening of the fathers and the dispositions of the Dwarvish clans, but that is not a problem per se.

DE-EX-08:
Quote:
If we would discard this passage because Tolkien did not take it up into his final version, we would need to form some text from LotR, Appendix to contain the information about the female dwarves. In other cases like that we prefered to restore the rejected passages, and I think that is here the better way as well.
I’m not sure that follows - we needn’t say anything about Dwarvish women here at all. However, I am not much against including this passage; its content, at any rate, seems to be on very firm ground.

DE-EX-09:
Quote:
I don't see that this is redundant with what follows. What I includes from that Letter is: 1. That what was told so far is the Elvish version of the story. 2. That Elves and Men know nothing of the fate of the fëa of the Dwarves after death. Only the second could be said to be redundant to the false belief that Dwarves return to earth and stone. But is that a statment about the dwarvish fëa at all?
That’s a good point. However, the fact that this Elvish belief (that they return to earth and stone) is contrasted with the Dwarvish belief that they are gathered to Mandos suggests that the Elvish belief does somehow pertain to the fëa. So I think I’d prefer to remove the statement about Elves and Men knowing nothing of the fate of Dwarvish fëar after death (though retaining the statement that this is an Elvish myth).
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:35 PM   #25
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DE-EX-07: For the sake of safety I am still inclined to skip the speculation about the Dwarves awakening at the time when the Eldar left Middle-earth.

DE-EX-07.1: Since we did not specify in our text what ratio we assume between VY and SY, we could simple leave the issue with the Dwarvish procreation necessary for the story of the Petty-Dwarves unaddressed.
a) Does sound simple, but would mean some changes in the farther chapters where the story of the Petty-Dwarves is retold. Even in the Narn and RoD so it is not made explicit the story is in the background. Therefore this option does not work for me.
b) This option would work for me as descript above, so I would, as said in DE-EX-07, at least skip the impossible speculation of the late awakening.
c) I can see a way to be ambiguous about who made these additional Dwarves, but how we could edit a text that implicitly suggest the additional Dwarves without mentioning them within our rules, is beyond me imagination in the moment.

DE-EX-08: Good, we will keep the passage.

DE-EX-09: I agree that the circumstances of the statement suggest that it applies to the dwarvish fëa. But what fate would that be? Imprisoned in the stone/tomb forever? Annihilation of the fëa? Good that we do not have to solve that riddle! I agree to your suggestion to remove the statement about Elves and Men knowing nothing of the fate of Dwarvish fear after death and to keep that about this being an Elvish myth.

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Old 11-16-2017, 06:51 PM   #26
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DE-EX-07: I agree with Fin

DE-EX-07.1: I agree that leaving it ambiguous is best, so I would also go with b)

DE-EX-09: Agreed.

If there's nothing else, is that the end of Chapter 3?
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:49 PM   #27
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If there's nothing else, is that the end of Chapter 3?
There were just a few more things I wanted to comment on, but I've had a nasty stomach virus all week and haven't been able to focus on this yet.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:07 AM   #28
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Aiwendil get well soon!

And take all the time you need for this.

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Old 11-19-2017, 09:38 AM   #29
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Aiwendil. I hope you´re well soon.
Greetings
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:00 PM   #30
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Thanks for the well-wishes! It was nothing really serious, but I was in bed with a fever for a week and simply not able to muster much brain-power for anything. But as I'm well on the road to recovery, here are the few remaining comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
DE-EX-10, second footnote: If, as Aiwendil thinks, this is Tolkien think with the pen, then taking the footnote as it is would change Tolkien's uncertainty to one of the author of our text. To avoid that we could edit out the uncertainty.
I could live with something like this:

Quote:
Footnote to the text: {What effect would this have on the succession? Probably} [T]his 'return' would only occur when by some chance or other the reigning king had no son. The Dwarves were very unprolific and this no doubt happened fairly often
DE-EX-11: This still seems redundant to me. The first sentence is:

Quote:
{... the}The reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings - e.g. especially Durin - is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King {Durin (say) }to which at intervals his spirit would return.
But this comes immediately after we have said:

Quote:
The Dwarves add that at that time Aule gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers (such as Durin) should, at the end of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of his own body, at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again
So the addition from Last Writings adds nothing. Moreover, that addition is phrased in such a way as to make it seem that we are just now turning to the topic of Dwarvish reincarnation, whereas in fact we’ve already been discussing it.

Not necessarily redundant, I suppose, is the second sentence:

Quote:
But the relations of the Dwarves to the Valar and especially to the Vala Aule are (as it seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men
However, this is somewhat enigmatic; I think the most likely meaning is that this reincarnation is the responsibility of Aulë, which is redundant with:

Quote:
The Dwarves add that at that time Aule gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men
So on the whole I think I would still remove this addition from Last Writings in its entirety.

DE-SC-06:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
In the later conception of the Valar it is unthinkable that they would not know about the sun before its making. They might not have precived the importance or greatness of that source of light, but even so the Vision of Eä cased before the dominion of Men began, I don't belive it cased before Men awoke. And anyhow the Ainulindalë was over all. All the Valar therefore must have been a rough idea about the history of Eä to come and must have include some idea about the sun. In addition Yavanna is speaking about Middle-earth and here words are reported by an unknown author in retrospec. So what ever she actually said in reffering to the light to come over that part of the world would in retrospec of the author be interpretable as the Sun.
And about not knowing what to do when the Trees are dead: It is one thing to know roughly what is the final result and quiet another to archive that result when the time for your action comes along, especially if (as we are told they were not) the Valar did not have a clear vision of the time scale of the Music and the Vision. It seems that none of the events in the history could be fortold by the Valar with precise timing.
This is getting somewhat into textual interpretation, but I think it’s fair to say that despite having seen the Vision of Eä, the Valar very often act as if they don’t know how even the broad strokes of history will unfold. When they make the Lamps, there is no suggestion that they know these will be replaced by the Trees; nor when they make the Trees that these will be replaced by the Sun and Moon. It’s not at all obvious to me that the Valar must have known that the Sun and Moon would someday exist, though it is quite possible that they might have. But in any case, since this sentence was written at a time when the cosmology had been changed and the Sun existed from the beginning, it still seems safer to me to omit the phrase.

Quote:
DE-SC-08: Okay, we will restore that passaged.
I thought we had agreed to keep it removed? I don't have a strong feeling either way, but it was removed by Tolkien so I'm inclined to omit it.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:32 PM   #31
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DE-EX-10: agreed

DE-EX-11: This is true, it does seem to only repeat the same thought in different terms. I am leaning towards Aiwendil's point of view on this.

DE-SC-06: The Sun reference should definitely be omitted.

DE-SC-08: This was indeed agreed to be removed, I am not sure what Fin is saying here.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:05 PM   #32
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DE-EX-10: Agreed.

DE-EX-11: Okay, we skipt this.

DE-SC-06: Okay, if both of you think we should removed it, we will do it.

DE-SC-08: Opps, sorry it seems I wrote it wrong way around. We will removed the sentence.

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Old 11-20-2017, 09:02 PM   #33
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Great - I think with that, we have resolved everything for this chapter.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:30 PM   #34
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This is going great guys! Can I just take a moment to say how awesome it is to be a part of this project? Thank you guys for starting this all those years ago, and for continuing on with it. It's really amazing!
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