Glaladriel Evil?

If Galadriel has a ring of power how come she is not evil???

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

it's not THE ring of power.sauron didn't ever even touch to the three rings of the elves. the three were done with good thoughts but the one ring was evil!

[Iarwain]

Hm. If you've seen the movies, they would lead you to believe that she is evil. She is not. Perhaps an explaination of the rings is necessary? Yes? Here we go...

WARNING!!! POSSIBLE SPOILERS CONTAINED BELOW!

Once upon a time in Middle-Earth there was Sauron. Sauron was not a nice guy. If you want more about Sauron, read the Silmarillion, or Ch.2 of FotR. Sauron was a Maia, which ment that he had special abilities, such as the ability to change his appearance. Now, everyone in Middle-Earth new that Sauron was a bad guy, and he didn't like the people that called him a bad guy. There were two groups that he really hated. Group one was the Numenorians, a powerful island nation of men that he feared deep down in the depths of his heart. Group two was the Elves, or to be more specific, the Noldor that remained in the far west of Middle-Earth. The elves had a high king at that time by the name of Gil-Galad. So, since Sauron hated the Noldor, he decided to trick them and get a boost in his power. So, he changed himself to look like an elf, and visited a particularly crafty bunch of elves that lived in Eregion, or Hollin. The head of these elves was Celebrimbor, a very prestigious guy with quite a heritage (but we won't get into that). Sauron called himself "Annatar" which means "the giver of gifts", and said that he could instruct them and increase their skills. So he taught them, and they listened, despite Gil-Galad's advice against Annatar (he had a feeling the guy was no good). In the end, Annatar taught them how to make rings of power. They made nineteen great rings in all, each with different powers and natures. Three of these, the three most powerful, were made by Celebrimbor himself. Their names were Narya, Vilya, and Nenya. After all the great rings were made, Annatar left the people of Eregion, and returned to Mordor as Sauron. There, he forged the One Ring, and the moment he put it on his finger, all the other ringbearers percieved him and what he had done. The took of their rings and hid them. Sauron wanted the rings, so he declared war on Eregion, and in the end he recovered all of the Great Rings except the three that Celebrimbor had made. These were given to great elves for safe keeping. Narya was given to Gil-Galad, Nenya was given to Galadriel, and Vilya was given Elrond. At this time, Sauron turned his focus from the Noldor to Numenor. He left Mordor and allowed himself to be taken captive by the Numenorian king, Ar-Pharazon, who was corrupted by Sauron, and sent a great fleet of ships to Valinor to conquer the Valar. Ar-Pharazon, however, was a fool and the fleet was destroyed, and Numenor itself was pulled beneath the sea, with Sauron on it. This was his first death, and represtented the loss of his shape-shifting abilities. He returned to Mordor and made a new body with the help of the Ring. By now, the Noldor were realizing the true threat of Sauron. Elendil and his two sons: Isildur and Anarion had landed in Middle-Earth, their companies being the only survivors from fallen Numenor. They built a massive empire, the products of which included Isengard, Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith), Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul), Osgiliath, and the Argonath. As previously stated, around this time, the Noldor were worried about the growing threat Sauron posed to the freedom of Middle-Earth. They decided that they had best attack before his forces became too great. And they did. They mustered a great force, teaming up with the Dwarves of Moria and elsewhere, and the Numenorian Exiles of Gondor and Arnor. They were "The Last Alliance of Elves, Men and Dwarves". Before the alliance marched, Gil-Galad passed Narya to Cirdan the Shipwright. The Last Alliance stormed Mordor and defeated the armies of Sauron, until he alone remained. Then, Elendil and Gil-Galad fought Sauron, and all three died. Narsil, Elendil's sword, was broken as he fell, as was Aiglos, Gil-Galad's legendary spear. Isildur, who was standing near by, cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand and claimed it as his own: "This I will have as weregild for my father and my brother" he said. Of course you probably know how the story goes from here. Isildur marches with a small guard to Rivendell, but encounters a large group of Orcs in the Gladden Fields. Gollum finds the Ring, and then Bilbo, and then it is passed on to Frodo. But now we turn our focus back to the three "Elven" rings, made by Celebrimbor, and preserved from Sauron. Elrond kept Vilya, the most powerful, and Galadriel kept Nenya also, but Cirdan did not keep Narya. After the overthrow of Sauron by the Last Alliance, he went back to Lindon and waited. The Istari began to arive, Saruman came first, then Radagast and the two blue wizards, and last came Gandalf. Cirdan had some sort of forsight, and predicted that Gandalf would tread the hardest road, and so he passed Narya to the Grey Pilgrim, who kept for the duration of the War of the Ring. Because Sauron did not have the One Ring in the third age, and therefore had no power over the others, the Three were not dangerous to their keepers. The End (and yet also the beginning)

Iarwain

[ June 27, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[lindil]

Also Michael martinez has an excellent article on the Rings of Power and the Dark Side of the Elves if you will [my paraphrased title].

this might be it

or you may have to do a bit of searching on the site for something more obviously titled.

actually, this is it.

Although the above touches on some of the same themes.

What we really only get from JRRT's letters is that the very idea of the 3 Rings was even worse than Feanor imprisoning the light of the 3 Trees in his Jewels.

enjoy.

[Legolas]

In a nutshell, the maker of the Rings of Power was able to hide the Three Elven Rings and hand them out before Sauron could take them and corrupt them with his malice. The Rings remained hidden from him until the end, in their demise at the end of the War of the Ring. Their power was tied to the One Ring (and they lost their power when it was destroyed), but since Sauron remained split from them, they never had the effects of the other sixteen.

[ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Yavanna228]

Iarwain- You could write Cliff's Notes for Tolkien. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Legolas- So basically what you're saying is that the three rings were not corrupting to their wielders because they were not corrupted by Sauron? Makes sense, but part of me wonders why the power alone, be it good or evil, did not corrupt in some way?
Peace

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Where shall I begin?.....ah yes!!
SAURON
Originally a Maia of Aulë's people, Sauron was early corrupted by Melkor and became his most trusted lieutenant. In the Wars of Beleriand, Sauron was the most feared of Morgoth's servants, but after the War of Wrath and the expulsion of the first Dark Lord, Sauron rose to become the greatest enemy of Elves and Men in the Second and Third Ages.

Sauron's History Before the First Age
Sauron was one of the mightiest (perhaps the mightiest) of the Maiar, and in the beginning of days he served Aulë the Smith. From Aulë he learnt much of forging and making, knowledge that he would make use of many thousands of years later when he built the Barad-dûr and forged the One Ring.
In the earliest days, Melkor seduced Sauron and took him into his own service, and Sauron became the greatest and most trusted of his followers. While Utumno still stood in the dark north of the world, Sauron was given command of his lesser fortress of Angband. At length, the Valar assaulted Melkor and took him in chains back to Valinor, but Sauron escaped, and remained in Middle-earth.

Sauron in the First Age
While Melkor was captive in Aman, Angband was made ready for his return, and it must be assumed that Sauron had a large part in this work. After the Darkening of Valinor, Melkor returned indeed to Middle-earth, and took up his abode in Angband. Soon after, he travelled for a while into the eastern lands to seek the newly-awakened Men leaving Sauron in command of his forces once again.
Though Sauron doubtless continued his evil works in the service of his lord, we hear nothing of these for many centuries after the return of Morgoth, until the days after the Dagor Bragollach. For two years after the Dagor Bragollach itself, Finrod's tower of Minas Tirith had guarded the Pass of Sirion against Morgoth's forces. In 457 (First Age), Sauron himself came against the tower; he cast a spell of fear upon the Elves who held it, and they were slain or fled back to Finrod in Nargothrond.

Sauron then took Minas Tirith to dwell in, and watched the Pass of Sirion himself from its topmost tower. The isle on which it stood, which had been called Tol Sirion, was renamed Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves.

After the Dagor Bragollach, the last remnant of the House of Bëor became a scattered people. Barahir, its lord, took shelter in the uplands of Dorthonion at Tarn Aeluin with his son Beren and eleven others and was hidden for a while from Morgoth. Sauron was sent to find and destroy this desperate band of outlaws. This he did by capturing Gorlim, one of Barahir's followers, and using his sorcery he discovered the outlaws' camp, and destroyed all of Barahir's band but his son Beren.

Beren himself fled southwards through the treacherous paths of the Ered Gorgoroth, and Sauron's army of werewolves failed to capture him. Fate drove Beren into Sauron's hands eventually, though: some years later as he travelled northward on the Quest of the Silmaril, Sauron captured him with Finrod and their companions and imprisoned them in Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

Sauron knew nothing of Beren's quest; sensing some danger to himself or his master, he sent wolves out throughout the lands of the Elves, and meanwhile he flung Beren, Finrod and their companions into a deep pit. There they were devoured one after the other by one of his werewolves, and eventually all were lost but Beren. As the werewolf slew Finrod, though, Lúthien came upon Sauron's Isle with Huan, the Hound of Valinor. Sauron sent wolf after wolf to investigate Lúthien's song, and each was slain in turn by Huan. At last, he sent Draugluin, the mightiest wolf that had then lived, and he too was mortally wounded by Huan, but with his dying breath he returned to Sauron and warned him of the danger.

So Sauron went himself to one of his greatest defeats. He took the form known as Wolf-Sauron, the shape of a mighty werewolf, and went out to meet his foes. First, he attacked Lúthien, but under her enchantment he stumbled, and Huan sprang upon him. Though he shifted shape and struggled, he could not escape; at last he yielded the tower to Lúthien,and Huan released him. He fled eastward then to Dorthonion, where he dwelt in the dark pine forests of Taur-nu-Fuin.

Sauron in the Second Age
After the War of Wrath and the defeat of his master Morgoth, Sauron fled for a time into the east of the world.2 A period of one thousand years followed in which Sauron was not seen in the west of Middle-earth. As the first millennium of the Second Age turned, Sauron came back. He took the fenced and mountainous land of Mordor, and there began building his mighty Dark Tower of Barad-dûr.
The beginning of Sauron's reign as Dark Lord can be dated from this time: he set himself no less a goal than the conquest of Middle-earth, and perhaps even of Númenor itself.

For six hundred years, he pursued a dual strategy. In the guise of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, he tutored the Elves of Eregion, teaching them the secret things that only a Maia of Aulë's people could know. From his lore, the Rings of Power were forged, but while he worked with the Elves, he continued the fortification of Mordor to make it an unassailable stronghold.

In the fire-mountain of Orodruin, he secretly forged the One Ring. This was to be the first stroke in his conquest of the west - a device by which he could know, and control, the thoughts of the bearers of the other Rings. His plan failed, though: the Elves became aware of his malevolent presence, and took off their Rings.

Angered by this setback, Sauron loosed the hordes of Mordor, six hundred years in the building, and overran Eriador, destroying the land of Eregion where the Rings were made. The Elves called on Númenor for aid, though, and the army of Tar-Minastir put Sauron's forces to rout. After this reverse, Sauron sought instead to build power in the eastern countries, and left the Westlands in peace for many centuries.

When Ar-Pharazôn usurped the throne of Númenor in 3255 (Second Age), he saw Sauron's growing eastern kingdom as a threat. Building and equipping a mighty fleet, he sailed for Middle-earth, and landed at Umbar, to the south of the Mouths of Anduin. Ar-Pharazôn demanded that Sauron submit to his authority and, seeing that the might of the Númenóreans far outstripped his own, Sauron agreed.

Then there's........Galadriel!

Youngest child, and only daughter, of Finarfin of the Noldor, Galadriel was born in Valinor while the Two Trees still grew there. She travelled to Middle-earth at the beginning of the First Age with her four brothers. In Beleriand, she went often to the halls of Thingol, (to whom she was related; Eärwen her mother was Thingol's niece), and there she met Celeborn.

After the War of Wrath and the destruction of Beleriand, most of the Noldor returned to Valinor, but Galadriel and Celeborn remained in Middle-earth. After the loss of Amroth in 1981 TA, Galadriel and Celeborn became Lady and Lord of Lothlórien, and there they stayed until the end of the Third Age.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

In other words, Galadriel was given an ELVEN ring, which is GOOD not EVIL, but Galadriel, as all elves, can be corrupted by the One Ring. And since Galadriel has a ring of power, she can become as Evil AS Sauron with the One Ring

[Yavanna228]

Frodo, that was very informative, but...exactly how does that tie in with power corrupting or not corrupting Galadriel?
Peace

Edit: sorry! Just read your second post. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Thanks

[ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna228 ]

[davem]

Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Tolkien talks of the elves being embalmers. Galadriel used Nenya to effectively stop, or hold back change & growth in Lorien, to change living nature into an embalmed work of art, against the will of Eru. If she had taken the one, she would have done that to the whole of ME. Tolkien says the elves had 'flirted with Sauron', or in Christian terms, 'dabbled in Satanism'. There is a 'dark side' to the Elves, pride, desire to be dominant, to be the superior caste in ME. The Elves are complex beings. There are few races, or individuals in ME who are entirely 'good'.

[ June 25, 2003: Message edited by: davem ]

Do not dare to call her evil!Have you read the first part of the trilogy" The Fellowship of teh Ring"?
She had a chance to take the Ring of Power but she didn't.She knew that after THE DISTROYING OF THE ONE RING,HER NENYA WILL LOOSE IT'S POWER-AND THE LOTHLORIEN WILL LOOSE IT'S BEAUTY AND POWER AND SHE SHOULD LEAVE HER KINGDOM.
AND SHE LEFT...

[lindil]

Amanfalath, what Dave M and others are saying is that Elvish nature has a weak point [especially those that remain in ME] and that is a tendency to turn nostalgia into a religion. To warp Eru's creation by stopping time, so they feel comfortable and less transient, and that the Three Rings, though not Rings of War, were still products of an Elvish Fall. Subtle indeed, but decribed by JRRT in his Letters, none the Less. Now Martinez in tghe second article refernced above, boes further [I think] than JRRT connecting some of Tolkien's dots if you will, by showing just how pernicious and decietful the entire matter of the ringmaking and the enticement of the Numenoreans into fighting Sauron wiothout having a clue [till the last Alliance] what the War was about.

So Galadriel [ she and Finrod are probably my two favorite's of JRRT's creations] was not acting with any evil intent, but the entire world she had created in Lothlorien had a fallen aspect.

To add to the paradoxical nature of this 'fall' keep in mind that this is where Olorin goes to be healed, and that Gandalf himself bears one of the Three!

[ June 25, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Finwe]

Whoa, Aman, you don't need to write in all capitals, we'll read what you're saying!

The Elven Rings did not corrupt their bearers because there was nothing of Sauron's active malice in them. True, the Big S. was planning on making the Elven Rings, but he never really got around to actively doing it. Celebrimbor beat him to it. I think that made Sauron really angry was that there was nothing of his will in the Rings, and thus, could not control the Elves through those Rings. That was why he went after the Elven Rings with such fervor. After he forged the One Ring, and Celebrimbor (silly git!) perceived him, Celebrimbor knew. He just knew. That was why he sent the Elven Rings into hiding with Galadriel, Gil-galad, and Cirdan. He knew that with them, Sauron wouldn't be able to get them, and that if Sauron managed to corrupt the Elven Rings, the trio would immediately stop using the Rings.

After the Big S. mustered up his huge army of mindless minions, he marched on Eregion. Of course, at that time, he had no way of knowing that the Elven Rings were safely bestowed upon their bearers. He attacked Eregion, and captured the chief treasury of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. He captured Celebrimbor, and started torturing him. Celebri, being the Noldo that he is, resisted. But finally, the torture grew too great, and he told Sauron where the Nine Mortal Rings and the Seven Dwarven Rings were, since he considered those less important than the Elven Rings. He knew that the Dwarves would be devilishly hard to corrupt, and as for Men, they asked for it. Of course, this didn't satisfy Sauron. He wanted the three Elven Rings, but Celebrimbor wouldn't tell him. Finally, Sauron just killed Celebrimbor, and used his body (shot through with arrows, mind you) as a banner, and marched on Elrond's forces who were probably fleeing north with the remnants of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain.

Elrond managed to get to Imladris, and founded a refuge there. There, he held out, while Sauron made sure that a relatively large army was kept there to keep Elrond busy. Then, he turned his attention west, to Gil-galad. His one greatest mistake was to assume that all three were with Gil-galad, when they were not. Galadriel had one. If he had concentrated initially on besieging Lothlorien, he would have eventually broken through her leaguer, and probably gotten Nenya. Thankfully, though, he didn't. He turned west to Gil-galad and Cirdan, who by now, were pretty desperate for help.

Earlier, during the time of King Tar-Meneldur of Numenor, Gil-galad had sent a letter to Numenor, through the King's son Aldarion, saying that the old alliances should be kept between Elves and Men, and that a Dark Power was growing in Middle-earth. Now, it was Numenor that answered. King Tar-Minastir sent out a huge navy to the aid of Middle-earth. And as usual, it had impeccable timing.

Picture it. Sauron was waylaying Eriador as he went, and I think that Gil-galad and Cirdan were getting more and more frightened. They knew that their forces were not enough to last against an army the size of Sauron's. Finally, Sauron attacked. He slowly drove the Elves back, until they reached the river Lune. There, they held. They had to hold. Gil-galad and Cirdan were holding that line in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, for they knew that the Havens were their last hope. If worst came to worst, and they could not hold out, they could all pile into Grey Ships, and sail out for a while, because Sauron and his minions were afraid of water (thanks to Ulmo!).

With impeccable timing, just as Sauron was about to burst through the line, the navy sent by Tar-Minastir sailed up into the harbor, and all those seven-foot-something Numenoreans jumped out, waving their swords and screaming battle cries. Needless to say, morale was good. Together, the Elves and the Numenoreans pushed Sauron back, out of Eriador, and back to Mordor. When Imladris was finally free of its besieging army, Elrond came along to help. Together, they chased Sauron all the way to the Dagorlad, where they decimated the last of his army, leaving him with only a handful of bodyguards. The Big S. stayed put in Barad-dur until the Battle of the Last Alliance.

After everyone got back to their respective kingdoms, the first White Council was called. It was decided that Eregion would not be rebuilt, and that Imladris would become the eastern outpost of the Elves. It was also then that Gil-galad gave Elrond Vilya. All three Ring-bearers decided that it was still too risky to use the Three, and they hid them away.

We all know what happened with the Last Alliance, so I won't bother to explain that.

Galadriel, being the last of the direct line of the House of Finwë in Middle-earth, enjoyed a great deal of status. After the One Ring was lost, she was finally able to use Nenya to fortify Lothlorien. Her kingdom soon became one of the greatest of the Elven Kingdoms, pretty much the last one, although it remained mysterious to all except the Elves and Elf-friends. She could sense much of what was going on in the world around her through Nenya, and so, she kept a watch on the world, knowing that Sauron would one day return.

When the Necromancer began to resurface in Dol Guldur, Galadriel was probably the first one to notice. Dol Guldur was fairly close to her borders, compared to Imladris, and she could see into others' minds. She probably stopped using Nenya as much as she did before, and alerted all the others on the White Council. Predictably, no one really did anything, since there was no real way that they could tell if it was Sauron, and not just another Dark Lordling.

At the end of The Hobbit, the Necromancer was forced out of Dol Guldur by the White Council, having been prevailed upon by Gandalf and Galadriel, and fled to Mordor. Then, he took up his old identity as Sauron, and from there, we all know the story.

The Elven Rings were not evil at all, they were merely subject to an evil power, there's a difference. All of the Ringbearers knew that either way, their powers were doomed. If Frodo succeeded, and the One Ring was destroyed, then their Rings' powers would fade. If Frodo failed, and Sauron recovered the One Ring, then they would not be able to use their Rings. It wasn't a nice choice. But the important thing was, that Galadriel resisted the allmighty lure of the One Ring, and that itself proved that there was no taint in her.

[davem]

The Elven Rings weren't evil - BUT...
They were made with the intention to bring about & preserve as far as possible what the Elves considered to be a perfect state. Where nothing can die, or change, or follow its natural path, live according to its nature, unless that corresponded with the desires of the wielders of the Rings.

The Rings weren't evil. But they weren't very 'safe', either. They enabled the Elves to indulge a 'dangerous' aspect of their nature, & it would have been better if they hadn't been made, & the Elves had accepted their destiny at the end of the first age & returned to Valinor.

[Lush]

Galadriel is about as evil as my hamster.

[the phantom]

Most hamsters I've met were terribly evil (they're furballs that bite).

While we're talking about the embalming aspect of the elves (and how it's a bit impure and dark), I thought I'd mention that Galadriel goes overboard with the idea much more than the other wielders appear to.

In her realm time appears to stop. When it was compared to Rivendell in LOTR (can't remember the exact quote), whoever it was says that in Rivendell it's more as if there's the memory of things past. In Lothlorien, things past were frozen (embalmed).

Also, since Galadriel's days in Valinor she'd always been very power hungry and desired realms to rule and order as she wished. This is apparant in her use of Nenya. And she's not terribly humble either. She seems to love using her mind powers and telling people what she can do. She also seriously believed that she could take the ring and overthrow Sauron (something that Tolkien doubted in his letters).

As a matter of fact, Tolkien said that if she could do it, then all the other bearers of the elven rings could, "especially Elrond". So she wasn't the best suited for overthrowing Sauron, but she appeared to be tempted the most.

She's not evil, but she's certainly not perfect.

[Yavanna228]

She's not evil, but she's certainly not perfect.

Much as we ourselves.
Personally, I don't know that I would go to the lengths to call Galadriel 'evil', though she could be tempted, as she was when Frodo offered her the One Ring. She was not immune from that temptation, but she resisted it. That shows strength of character.
The reason that she flaunted her powers and possibly was somewhat obsessive about preserving Lothlorien might have just been from the fact that she was the only wielder of those rings who had been an elf living in Aman and perhaps she wanted to keep a semblance of perfection like what she had had there. Perhaps she was trying to guard against downfall, that she didn't want to lose what she had in ME like she had lost what she had in Aman when she left, even though it proved futile. Again, this is all speculation on my part, so feel free to refute it however you wish. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

[davem]

No, Galadriel isn't evil. But that's not what Tolkien was doing - much as his critics might disagree. He wasn't depicting the Elves as perfectly good, or as evil. The Elves were wise, loving, heroic, self sacrificing & great artists. But they were also proud, haughty, & enjoyed their position of superiority in ME. They were also constantly looking back to an idealised past, which prevented them from seeing the future as anything but a decline into hopeless loss. It was due to this very complexity of their nature that they lived as they did, & in part that they suffered as they did. They weren't GOOD or EVIL. They were complex beings with all kinds of desires, motives, hopes & fears.

[Finwe]

I don't really blame Galadriel for trying to vaunt her powers in the face of everyone else. After all, she was the last one of the direct line of the House of Finwë, which, in itself, is an honor. She was also the last Elf (or one of the last Elves) who had seen the light of Aman, thus, making her more powerful than the rest.

Even in Aman, Galadriel had always been proud of her abilities. I think it was a Noldo thing! I'm sure that people told her that she was the greatest of the Noldor (except for Fëanor, but he's a way different topic), and that could have gone slightly to her head. It says in the Silmarillion that all of the descendants of Finwë were proud and masterful, and that would definitely describe Galadriel.

I think that the reason time seems to freeze in Lothlorien is that Galadriel didn't want her realm to fall, like the realms of so many of her kin. She saw Nargothrond fall, the realm of her brother. She saw Gondolin fall, the realm of her cousin, Turgon. She saw Doriath fall, the realm of one of her greatest teachers and her kinsman. And finally, she saw Lindon fall, along with the last of the High Kings. She didn't want the same thing to happen to her and her kingdom, so that was why Celeborn was probably the one who did all the traveling. I don't recall any mention of Galadriel ever leaving Lothlorien for anything, except for Aragorn and Arwen's wedding and a few visits to Rivendell in the early Third Age.

She was so protective of her kingdom because she wanted it to resemble Aman, and Doriath. She probably learned how to guard it from Melian, who practically was the Maia of Guarding, and after Doriath's fall, Galadriel was the last "heir" of Melian alive. She probably wanted her kingdom to be a testament to her teacher.

[davem]

I agree with all those points. Its more than understandable that she did what she did.

But it doesn't make what she did right.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ah, but she was evil... how else could she do that creepy elf lady thing with the change of the facial structure, the blue aura, and the voice not unlike that of The Rock?

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Still, I can't help but think that a really lot of the trouble in LOTR are her fault...

Fea

[Yavanna228]

Hi Feanor,

Still, I can't help but think that a really lot of the trouble in LOTR are her fault...

Can you give some examples?
Peace

[davem]

Well, maybe not her fault specifically, but the whole Rings thing is down to the Elves, which mess Frodo & the others have to clear up. Which is one reason the movie Elrond annoys me, with his constant attacks on the weakness of men. Who made the Rings in the first place?

[Darby]

Maybe...
Maybe the weakness of men stuff is more because when the elves got their three rings, they still stayed noble and (mostly) good. But the nine mortal kings who got rings were so totally corrupted by a lust for power that they became the ringwraiths? Course, the movie makes it simple and implies that Elrond is still holding a grudge because Isildur wouldn't listen to him and just toss the darned ring into the volcano.
Anyway, I think all elves are tempted by the desire for greatness, just as men are tempted by the desire for power. But, Galadriel passes her test and accepts that she will diminish and go into the west. So, she's faced the darkness in her heart and come out the other side - which makes her very very good in my books. I think Aragorn and Faramir are the only two *men* who resist the lure of the ring in the same way. Boromir, I think, is the more typical human reaction to a ring of power - he fails the test spectacularly.
Historically, men seem rather more susceptible to temptation than elves. So the elves have some reason to be grouchy on the whole topic, even if the greed and lust for power and what-not all started with them in the first place.

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Darby ]

[Finwe]

Actually I think that most of the troubles of Middle-earth were caused by Men. It was their desire for power that ultimately led to the emergence of the Ringwraiths. If they had not been renowned for being power-hungry, then Sauron would have figured out something else to do with them. It was also Isildur's fault that the Ring remained alive. If he hadn't been so accursed arrogant about the Ring, then it would have been destroyed. But of course, he had to be as arrogant as his ancestors.

(I just realized something. I sound remarkably like Elrond.)

[Iarwain]

Before we try to determine who's fault it was of the good people in middle-earth, let's consider Morgoth's rebellion, and Sauron's perversion. Need it be anyone else's fault?

Iarwain

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Mind you, Yavanna, that I was mostly joking, but here are a few things.

1) after failing to get Gandalf seated as head of the White Council, Galadriel gave up, and then didn't keeps tabs on Saruman's doings as much as she could have. Had she, he probably wouldn't have been able to cause as much damage. Not her job to babysit wizards, but it would have been nice.

2) She gave the Fellowship "the willies", not to put too fine a point on it. She creeped them all out to start with. Galadriel got Boromir to second guess his own intents, which led to Aragorn mistrusting him, which led to

3) Boromir's downfall. He attacked Frodo which led to

4) The breaking of the Fellowship. Add Frodo's taking off and Saruman's orcs rampaging around the country side, and they had a pretty big problem.

There's my Galadriel's screw-ups list. And remember, I was joking, and I still pretty much am. Cheers

Fea

[Yavanna228]

Thanks Fea. I had a feeling that you were joking, but I wanted to make sure. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
And Iarwain, thanks for putting us back in perspective.
Peace

[QuickSlash]

*going to defend Galadriel*

Not her job to babysit wizards, but it would have been nice.

Couldn't you blame that on any of the other Istari, then? Why didn't they keep tabs on each other? No one expected Saruman to be corrupted. He was wise. It makes sense for them to believe that he would resist obvious temptations.

(Breaking of the Fellowship)

Don't you think that Boromir would've gone after the ring eventually? It was evident from the very beginning that he wanted it. It was just a matter of when.

Do you think that if the Fellowship had stayed together things would've been better? Boromir corrupted, and most likely, the others would've, too, if they'd stayed with Frodo long enough. Not to mention that they'd started fighting about the path they'd take (To Gondor or through the path Frodo took [name forgotten right now]). Could've gotten very bad.

((Gotta run, so this is cut a little short. Sorries.))

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Couldn't you blame that on any of the other Istari, then?

Oh yes, I could have. It would make a lot more sense for the other Istari to keep tabs on each other than to stick Galadriel with the responsiblity, but it's more amusing to blame Galadriel and see other people's responses. Blame my English teacher- her favorite character is Galadriel and she won't hear anything against her, so my brother and I made a list one day of "How Galadriel Caused Every Problem in ME"! It was funnier at the time...

Don't mind me though, I quite like Galadriel. She creeps me out a bit, but she's still pretty cool.

Fea

P.S.- I don't really think she's evil!

[Iarwain]

I'm still wondering what exactly is so creepy about Galadriel. Please explain, Fea. Is is because she rules a pleasant, sunny, woodland kingdom with her husband and their followers, or because she is widely considered one of the fairest elves left in middle-earth? In all my readings of the LotR, I've always considered her to be one the nicest characers. She's never seemed ceepy in the least.

Iarwain

[Finwe]

I think that most people are misled by the movie. Galadriel was not supposed to be creepy, she was just supposed to be very beautiful. The way that PJ made her seem all evil with that freaky "in place of a Dark Lord" thing and the way that he turned her mental speech with the Fellowship into something freaky and unnatural made many people think that she was supposed to be freaky. But then again, not many people are used to someone who can speak inside others' minds. Perhaps that's why everyone thinks she's so creepy. Personally, I love her! I've always loved her character, so queenly and majestic.

I'm sorry if I have led you to believe I hate Galadriel or anything... She is one of my favorit people in the books (and movies) I was just wondering y... Thanks for all your reviews!!!

Hey there Im Faramir and being Gondorian not knowing much on the subject of Elven Lore, but I can tell you this If Galadriel is not Evil why is Elrond not Evil they both bear rings of power??? I believe what an individual does with that power is the more important issue, I do not believe Galadriel is Evil- Just a Thought, Faramir, Brother to Boromir, Son of Denethor and Captain of Gondor

[Gamja]

i find galadriel not to be evil, but her smile and the look in her eyes makes her look really sly and cunning, like a fox.

[Iarwain]

Faramir, I'm struggling to understand just exactly what you're saying. Could you expand a bit more? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarwain