The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-08-2004, 04:16 AM   #1
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Silmaril LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 09 - The Great River

This is a transitional chapter. It takes place on the river that forms the border between two enemy forces, that demands a choice of goal before it ends. It is relatively short and seems to have less weighty content, compared to other chapters. There is much description of the lands through which the Fellowship passes on this part of the journey.

The scene is being set for future developments - Gollum shows up, Boromir resists Aragorn's decisions, and an orc attack comes dangerously close to injuring them. Aragorn shows his kingly side once again when they pass the Argonath.

What do you find particularly interesting about this chapter? What feeling does reading it give you?
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 05:32 AM   #2
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

I'm going to try to sneak in a quick post before I need to get going.

Quote:
"I am out of my reckoning," he (Aragorn) said to Frodo. "I did not know that we had come so far: Anduin flows faster than I thought. Sarn Gebir must be close at hand already."
You can draw parallels here, with Gandalf's "misleading" of direction in Moria, and Aragorn's "misleading" direction. Aragorn didn't really "mislead" he just didn't anticipate on hitting the rapids this fast, which I think shows the connection that Gandalf and Aragorn aren't perfect.

I don't have enough time to get in what I wanted (I'll be back, lol). But, here's a bit more on Boromir's wittiness, which may be the funniest one yet.

Quote:
But the Enemy holds the eastern bank," objected Boromir. "And even if you poss the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?"
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 06:31 AM   #3
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
They were drawing near to the grey hill-country of the Emyn Muil, the southern march of Wilderland.
I don't know whether Tolkien intended it, but this mention of the grey hill-country made me think of the Green Hill Country on the map of the Shire. It brought home to me how far they've come, & what they've all been through since leaving Bag End. Its odd how such 'echoes' are so powerful in stirring memories. The lands they're now passing through are so different to the ones the Hobbits had grown up in. Its like, after leaving Lorien the Land becomes truly strange - a new phase in their journey has begun. So far we've been travelling through landscapes familiar to us from Bilbo's journey. Now we'll enter the world of Men.

This is, as Esty says, a transitional chapter - a journey by river, various dangers faced & overcome, the appearance of the Nazgul on a Fell Beast, & the sight of the Eagle, whose significance will become apparent later. And yet, in the midst of this 'travelogue' Tolkien gives us one of his most profound explorations of Elven psychology, in Legolas' account of the Elves relationship to time:

Quote:
‘Nay, time does not tarry ever,’ he said; ‘but change & growth is not in all things & places alike. For the Elves the world moves, & it moves both very swift & very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, & all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because the y do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.’
Time is not a constant for Elves. It moves both very swift & very slow - they seem to have a dual perception. they seem to be out of synch with the world outside their realms. The passing seasons are simply repetitions. Its as if they are watching a film loop, with the same events passing endlessly before their eyes.

How many other writers could introduce ideas like his into a ‘transitional’ chapter & make it work?
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 02:51 PM   #4
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

I wanted to bring up some striking parallels between the Company travelling in Moria, and the company travelling down the Anduin.

Quote:
For eight dark hours, not counting two brief halts, they marched on; and they met no danger, and heard nothing, and saw nothing but the faint gleam of the wizard's light,...
In this way they advanced some fifteen miles, in a direct line east, though they must have actually walked twenty miles or more. As the road climbed upwards, Frodo's spirits rose a little; but he still felt oppressed, and still at times he heard, or thought he heard, away behind the Company and beyond the fall and patter of their feet, a following footstep that was not an echo.
This is sort of like as Gandalf would say "the deep breath before the plunge." It's relatively quiet, they don't hear or see anything, but still we get this sense of ill will to come. And Frodo thinks he heres other "steps" following that aren't the Company's steps. We get this sense of foreboding ill, to come, and it does come.

Quote:
The eighth night of their journey came. It was silent and windless, the grey east wind had passed away.
Right before this we have the bit with Gollum, and him creeping behind the fellowship, so again we get this sense of ill to come. And again we have the "silent and windless night." Not a short while, after the company reaches Sarn Gebir, they are attacked, and then later again at Amon Hen. Both cases there is this unsteady, sort of like that "silent, too silent" phrase, where you get this unsteady feeling before the "big plunge."

Quote:
Sam looked from bank to bank uneasily. The trees had seemed hostile before, as if they harboured secret eyes and lurking dangers, now he wished that the trees were still there. He felt that the Company was too naked, afloat in little open boats in the midst of shelterless lands, and on a river that was the frontier of war.
More sense of uneasiness. But also, Sam is true, the river is "a frontier of war." On one side is warring Rohan with Isengard, on the other is Mordor, with their own patrols, reaching the edges of Gondor. I wonder if Anduin was a good choice for the Company, it does give them more time to think of the decision ahead, but Anduin is an unstable road, with much danger (The danger of being out in the open, shot at, and its made clear that the bows can shoot across the river, or atleast reach the Fellowship, and the danger of Sarn Gebir). Anduin is a very unstable place right now, one each side lies danger, and even travelling down the river is a danger.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 03:13 PM   #5
Encaitare
Bittersweet Symphony
 
Encaitare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 2,033
Encaitare is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I noticed that twice the number eight is used in Boromir's post above...

Quote:
For eight dark hours, not counting two brief halts, they marched on...
Quote:
The eighth night of their journey came....
Perhaps, since eight is one less than nine, this number foreshadows a death in the Fellowship. It's used just before Gandalf's death. Then, after Gandalf has returned to life unbeknownst to the rest of the Fellowship, it's used again before Boromir's death, as though their number is destined to be eight.

Or perhaps this is just me reading way too far into things.

As the company leaves the realm of Galadriel, they spy black swans in the sky, a sharp contrast to Galadriel's white swan-ship. The Elves seem to be very much connected to or enamoured of swans -- seen in the name "Alqualonde" and how in the Lay of Nimrodel, Amroth went "riding like a swan." The black swans are almost like the anti-Elf, the negative image of everything they stand for and love: beauty, timelessness, song. The company enters the barren lands south of Lorien and loses all that; their comfortable stay is without a doubt over.
Encaitare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 07:38 PM   #6
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,468
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Sting Boromir's prophecy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar
This is a transitional chapter. It takes place on the river that forms the border between two enemy forces, that demands a choice of goal before it ends.
It seems to me that this sense of transition is heightened by the fact that the Chapter opens and closes with a reminder that the Fellowship faces this choice:


Quote:
Not that most of the Company were eager to hurry southwards: they were content that the decision, which they must make at the latest when they came to Rauros and the Tindrock Isle, still lay some days ahead; and they let the River bear them on at its own pace, having no desire to hasten towards the perils that lay beyond, whatever course they took in the end.



Quote:
They could go no further without choice between the east-way and the west. The last stage of the Quest was before them.
So this Chapter, and the River itself, represents a kind of "limbo" in which the decision can be delayed. However, the choice must be made in the end, although not in the manner in which the Fellowship (and the reader) imagines. Ultimately, the Chapter represents a transition between the journey of the Fellowship and the separate Quests that they each pursue once it has broken.

And now, on to my current favourite subject: Boromir. There is ample evidence here that, following his experience in Lothlorien, he is suffering inner turmoil:


Quote:
Merry and Pippin in the middle boat were ill at ease, for Boromir sat muttering to himself, sometimes biting his nails, as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him, sometimes seizing a paddle and driving the boat close behind Aragorn's.
Classic signs of stress. And the object of his internal struggle is clear:


Quote:
Then Pippin, who sat in the bow looking back, caught a queer gleam in his eye, as he peered forward gazing at Frodo.
Interesting that it is Pippin who picks up on this. Once again, he seems to have some (unconscious) connection with the presence of evil, this time the evil that the Ring is working within Boromir's heart.

Boromir's growing obsession with Frodo, and more particularly Frodo's burden, is also evident when he resolves to continue with the Fellowship to the Tindrock:


Quote:
Boromir held out long against this choice; but when it became plain that Frodo would follow Aragorn, wherever he went, he gave in.
Boromir could leave the Company at this point and followed his proposed course, alone, to Minas Tirith. But he does not. Rather he chooses (or is compelled) to follow the same course as the Ringbearer. He explains his decision by asserting that it "is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need" (and there is no doubt still some truth in this), but it is Frodo who is singled out here as Boromir's reason for continuing with the Company. Boromir makes clear that he will go no further than the Tindrock and it occurred to me to wonder whether he already has an idea that this might be the place for him to make his move, if he is to make it. In any event, his words which follow are tragically prophetic:

Quote:
To the tall isle I will go, but no further.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 07:52 PM   #7
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
But, here's a bit more on Boromir's wittiness, which may be the funniest one yet.
Quote:

"And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?"
When I was in high school, my friends would see me off alone walking, laughing merrily. They used to wonder what I was laughing about. Now you know.

On the other hand, it's sad, isn't it, that that's what Boromir does in one of the elven boats?
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 11:13 PM   #8
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

Quote:
for Boromir sat muttering to himself, sometimes biting his nails, as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him
Poor Boromir. I'd be muttering and biting my nails too if I thought that a powerful weapon that would kill my people was about to be delivered to my enemy.

I always bite my nails though.
Quote:
Even when the paddles were in use they did not trust Sam with one.
I always laugh when I read that.

And someone mentioned Boromir's wit but didn't give this quote-
Quote:
'That would not be easy, even if we were all Men,' said Boromir.
'Yet such as we are we will try it,' said Aragorn.
'Aye, we will,' said Gimli. 'The legs of Men will lag on a rough road, while a Dwarf goes on, be the burden twice his own weight, Master Boromir!'
and later...
Quote:
'We need sleep, and even if Aragorn had a mind to pass the Gates of Argonath by night, we are all too tired- except, no doubt, our sturdy dwarf.'
Gimli made no reply: he was nodding as he sat.


Also, I was thinking back to the first time I read LOTR (with my father many years ago) and I am fairly certain that it was during this chapter that a particular thought first struck me- Frodo and Sam are going to get seperated from the others.

In Lorien they went to the mirror by themselves and now in this chapter they discuss Gollum privately and decide not to bother Strider about it. I dunno, I just remember thinking that Frodo and Sam had kind of distanced themselves from the others somehow (maybe because they drawn closer to each other).

But on the subject of Gollum, it turned out that Aragorn already knew much more than they did, and had actually tried to catch him during their river journey (without the hobbits realizing it). Aragorn really is amazing.

And I know this might be a bit off-topic, but Aragorn said-
Quote:
He padded after us all through Moria...
That made me wonder, how did Gollum get out of Moria? Didn't the dwarves design Moria so that the bridge that Gandalf broke was the only way to get in or out from the east? If so, are we supposed to assume that the Orcs had made new exits or what?
Quote:
Boromir could leave the Company at this point and followed his proposed course, alone, to Minas Tirith. But he does not. Rather he chooses (or is compelled) to follow the same course as the Ringbearer. He explains his decision by asserting that it "is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need" (and there is no doubt still some truth in this), but it is Frodo who is singled out here as Boromir's reason for continuing with the Company.
Yes, I noted this, and I wondered if, had things happenned differently and the Fellowship decided to go east together, Boromir would have gone with them despite his words. The choice would be easy to rationalize.

And I just thought I'd mention that the Argonath and the gorge it is in is one of the things that captured me on my first read. I would empty my checking account to travel that part of the Anduin.
Quote:
Frodo peering forward saw in the distance two great rocks approaching: like great pinnacles or pillars of stone they seemed. Tall and sheer and ominous they stood upon either side of the stream. A narrow gap appeared between them, and the River swept the boats towards it....
Upon great pedestals founded in the deep waters stood two great kings of stone: still with blurred eyes and crannied brows they frowned upon the North. The left hand of each was raised palm outwards in gesture and warning; in each right hand there was an axe; upon each head there was a crumbling helm and crown. Great power and majesty they still wore, the silent wardens of a long-vanished kingdom. Awe and fear fell upon Frodo, and he cowered down, shutting his eyes and not daring to look up as the boat drew near. Even Boromir bowed his head as the boats whirled by, frail and fleeting as little leaves, under the enduring shadow of the sentinels of Numenor. So they passed into the dark chasm of the Gates.
Sheer rose the dreadful cliffs to unguessed heights on either side. Far off was the dim sky. The black waters roared and echoed, and a wind screamed over them...
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 07:25 AM   #9
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,468
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
White-Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom
That made me wonder, how did Gollum get out of Moria? Didn't the dwarves design Moria so that the bridge that Gandalf broke was the only way to get in or out from the east? If so, are we supposed to assume that the Orcs had made new exits or what?
Gollum's Exit From Moria

How did Gollum escape Moria?

Gollum exiting Moria

Nothing definitive, but a good deal of informed speculation.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 09:16 AM   #10
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
(I think Gollum climbed/crawled out of one of those light-shafts.)

The Argonath: Sam's fearful reaction to the Argonath puzzles me. I can't relate to it. I love wind, and cliffs (if I'm at the bottom, and not at the top near the edge) and I love storms, and thunder and rough water...

Anyway, I never understood Sam's reaction. Maybe Tolkien was trying to paint the scene as a sort of "Cape Horn", a dangerous place; but it doesn't seem dangerous to me so much as exhilarating.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 09:33 AM   #11
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,814
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Frodo:
'In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea’
Quote:
Aragorn:
…in that land you lost your count. There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves
This realisation that time has somehow been corrupted has a lot in common with both ancient and modern phenomena. The modern is the conviction of people who believe they have been abducted in some way by aliens; in many ‘sightings’ people believe they have lost several hours of their life, as though they have been asleep. The ancient is the journey into the otherworld of the faeries. There is much folklore concerning mortals who have spent what they believe to have been seven days in Faerie, but in fact have spent seven or even seventy years there. It is as though they themselves have become immortal simply by entering that place.

I do believe Tolkien was drawing upon this time-shift folklore, but that he also attempted in some way to ‘explain’ it as it related to the Elves and other immortal creatures. When Legolas gives his speech, this is an attempt at that, but it is a very difficult concept to grasp, so it does bear careful consideration.

Quote:
Legolas:
For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last
The above statement bears reading through several times, and breaking the concepts down does help.

Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Imagine having been born two thousand years ago and still being alive today. You would have seen the world move through all its many changes. You would have known so many mortals that you would as likely as not have forgotten even some of the most important ones in your long life.

I’m no mathematician so I can’t give any numerical comparisons, but if you consider how, in what seems like no time at all, a kitten grows into an adult cat and then sadly grows old, this is what an immortal would experience with their mortal friends. In terms of what Arwen gave up for Aragorn, it could be compared with giving up your life at the age of 25 just to spend two weeks with somebody you met yesterday. Sometimes I think it is not surprising that so many Elves are portrayed as keeping their distance from mortals – it would indeed have been heart-breaking to see people die in no time at all, so perhaps it may have been better to keep away from the possibility.

Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. This, I think, refers to the fact that mortals’ running years are quite literally not counted by the elves for themselves. Their concept of a year would be much longer than ours; 144 years of mortal time made up one Yeni of Elven time, if I’m correct. To put this into the context of time passing slowly, instead of clock watching for one hour until you can go home, an Elf might have to do this for say, 3 or 4 days.

To an elf, a phase of the moon would pass by as though we had just clicked our fingers. Sayings such as ‘once in a ‘blue’ moon may mean once a month, i.e. something regular. It makes you wonder if they would celebrate events such as birthdays or anniversaries in the way that mortals might.

Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last. This is an enigmatic and beautiful statement. It suggests ‘the end of all things’. Or does Legolas refer only to the end of Elvenkind in Middle Earth by saying ‘under the Sun’?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 10:45 AM   #12
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,851
Fordim Hedgethistle has been trapped in the Barrow!
Heraclites was right about rivers: they mark much more than the boundary between earth and water, but between different modes of experience, perhaps even different ways of being. Along with his most famous phrase about stepping in rivers, Heraclites also left to posterity 130 other ‘fragments’ in which his philosophy is revealed. A few of the more relevant to this chapter are, I think:

Quote:
This world, which is the same for all, no one of gods or men has made; but it was ever, is now and ever shall be an ever-living Fire, with its measures kindling and its measures going out [20]

The sun is new every day [32]

You cannot step twice into the same rivers; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you [41-42]

Mortals are immortals and immortals are mortals, the one living the other's death and
dying the other's life [67]

It rests by changing [83]
So why am I inflicting upon you all the fragmentary remains of a Greek philosopher who died 2500 years ago? Because it strikes me that these sentiments are extremely helpful in thinking through the importance of this chapter.

Tolkien is a writer obsessed with roads – more properly, with The Road. The journeys of his heroes take place on the Road as they move forward in a linear way through their life’s experiences. The Roads that they travel return them to their home, completing a circle, but still the journey is one that they must undertake on their own. To traverse a Road one must do so through dint of one’s own efforts. There are landmarks to achieve, miles to cross and resting points to reach. One cannot drift upon the Road of Life, but be an active participant. Travelling on rivers is entirely different. I have spent a lot of time canoeing the rivers in the land about my childhood home, and what I have learned about rivers is that travelling them is a more passive activity, particularly if one is going with the current, as the Fellowship is doing. Rivers do not turn back upon themselves or return to their source. With rivers, the journey is not yours but the river’s itself: unlike the material of Roads, the water is physically moving, bearing you along.

Rivers are thus all about change and flux, flow and impermanence. Heraclites knew this, and that is why he asserted that you can never step in the same river twice: not just because the water is always changing, but because you are always changing. The experience of being human is one of flux, of alteration, and of change. Tolkien knew this, which is why his Men and Hobbits are so different from the Elves, for whom change is anathema and to be avoided. It is only appropriate and right, I think, that the Fellowship leaves the unchanging – and even sterile – land of the Elves by travelling a River and once again entering into the flux and movement of human life, and living.

In this chapter I think we can see all the members of the Fellowhip in the process of change. The plot and tenor of the book – that ineffable thing called ‘tone’ – is certainly changing from one of adventurous brotherhood to the darker and more fragmentary pursuits and trials which await them. But the two characters in whom we can see this process most clearly are, I think, Frodo and Aragorn:

Quote:
‘But the wearing is slow in Lórien,’ said Frodo. ‘The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring’
Quote:
‘Fear not!’ said a strange voice behind him. Frodo turned and saw Strider, and yet not Strider; for the weatherworn Ranger was no longer there. In the stern sat Aragorn son of Arathorn, proud and erect, guiding the boat with skilful strokes; his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile to his own land.

‘Fear not!’ he said. ‘Long have I desired to look upon the likenesses of Isildur and Anárion, my sires of old. Under their shadow Elessar, the Elfstone son of Arathorn of the House of Valandil Isildur’s son, heir of Elendil, has nought to dread!’

Then the light of his eyes faded, and he spoke to himself: ‘Would that Gandalf were here! How my heart yearns for Minas Anor and the walls of my own city! But whither shall I go?’
Frodo’s lament for Lórien is not only toching, but revelatory of a change in him. He is speaking now more like an Elf than a Hobbit. He is even speaking, although he doesn’t know it, in verse:

Rich are the hours
though short they seem
in Caras Galadhon
where Galadriel wields
the Elven-ring


The change in Aragorn is even more pronounced – but this is not a completed transformation. Just as Frodo is speaking in verse, but also in prose, so too is Aragorn still “Strider, and yet not Strider”. He has a moment of heroic revelation that raises the hackles on my neck every time, but it is short-lived: as soon as it is over he lapses ‘back’ into the uncertain Ranger of the North, in need of guidance from the Wizard. Quite wonderfully, his process of changing will not be completed until he undertakes another river journey upon the Anduin when he will save Minas Tirith. In that journey he not only will travel against the current, but he will do so without first consulting Gandalf about it. In this chapter we see him moving toward that moment, but not really there yet.

One particular fragment from Heraclites I think has profound resonance with the current chapter and discussion: “Mortals are immortals and immortals are mortals, the one living the other's death and dying the other's life”. Could there be any more accurate description of the tragedy that lies behind the journeys of Frodo and Aragorn? In Aragorn is, and will be united the bloodlines of the immortal Elves and mortal Men. The success of his quest will mean the “death and dying [of] the other’s [the Elves/Arwen] life”. The same for Frodo: with the destruction of the Ring there will come about the destruction of Lórien, and Frodo will pass from the mortal realm into the Timeless Land.

That all this is happening as they drift along the current of the greatest river in Middle-earth is perfectly appropriate. The process of change that they are caught up in is one that is beyond their control. They can choose to ride the river, to enter the current and let it bear them where they wish, but they cannot make that journey themselves, nor can they make the River follow any course but the one that it lays out for them. Of course, in the end, this process of change and flux must reach at least a momentary result or conclusion: in this case, the breaking of the Fellowship, which will itself become the beginning of their new journeys, the successful completion of which will again set off further journeys.

And on we go.
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 11:04 AM   #13
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,468
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Pipe

Hence the River is both symbolic of the Fellowship's delay in choosing a course, and the means by which that delay is achieved. They are letting themselves be passively carried along rather than actively making a decision (as the text reminds us both at the beginning and at the end of the Chapter).

Interesting that this passive mode of proceeding almost spells their doom. The River was about to carry them either into the deadly rapids or to the eastern shore were their enemies lay in wait. So, they can only allow themselves to be carried along for so long, unless they are to risk being carried into danger.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 02:14 PM   #14
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I think Fordim's points on the nature of the River are incredibly significant - its not only the physical River which carries the Fellowship, but also the 'river' of Time. this is a chapter which focusses primarily on being ‘carried’, being ‘swept along’. Aragorn himself makes the connection when he says:

‘Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.’

In the last chapter, our final glimpse of Lorien, specifically of Galadriel herself, was:

Quote:
As they passed her they turned & their eyes watched her slowly floating away from them. For so it seemed to them: Lorien was slipping slowly backward, like a bright ship masted with enchanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they sat helpless upon the margin of the grey & leafless world.
Suddenly, its not they who are standing still watching things pass away from them, it is they themselves who are sailing away, down the River, but also through time. Lorien was a passive time for them, now they are moving - or more precisely they are choosing to be moved both through space & through time. In Lorien it was as if there was no Time at all, now, in this chapter we are given a very specific time scale for the events. Time had stopped, now it is moving, even if only to a ‘spring of little hope’.

I suspect that’s why this chapter seems so ‘cluttered’ with events - almost too many to keep up with. Like the Fellowship, we’ve been in the Timeless Land, where even though a month had passed we ourselves cannot ‘remember’ more than a few days there. Its as if Time itself was waiting for us to emerge, with a month’s worth of events for us to deal with in a few days. We’ve experienced both Elvish ‘Time’ while in Lorien, & now, in this chapter, we will experience Human ‘Time’, where change is so fast that we can hardly keep up. The sudden rush, the panic, the attacks by enemies - all of it is like awakening from a soothing dream to a hectic day. And so it is - Elves inhabit the dreamworld, Men the waking world. If the Fellowship are ‘passively’ carried along by the ‘Great River’ of Time, well, aren’t we all? For three chapters we’ve inhabited the dreamworld of Lothlorien (the Dreamflower) now we have awakened.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2004, 03:07 PM   #15
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,468
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Silmaril Swept up in events ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
If the Fellowship are ‘passively’ carried along by the ‘Great River’ of Time, well, aren’t we all?
Precisely. But, like the Fellowship, there is a danger in letting ourselves be carried through space and time for too long. There comes a time when we must take positive action to "go against the flow", lest we become swept up in events which we cannot control or ambushed by unforseen dangers. The Fellowship had to battle (hard) against the stream, and found themselves very near to being on the end of an orcish arrowhead, when they found that they had let it take them too far (farther than Aragorn had realised).
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 01:58 AM   #16
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Frodo looked up at the Elf standing tall above him, as he gazed into the night, seeking a mark to shoot at. His head was dark, crowned with sharp stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind. But now rising & sailing up from the south the great clouds advanced, sending out dark outriders into the starry fields. A sudden dread fell on the Company.

Elbereth Gilthoniel sighed Legolas as he looked up.
Quote:
Along the coastal strip we passed by numerous negro villages where the people sat talking round tiny fires. Soon the train began to climb. The settlements ceased, & the night became inky black. Gradually it turned cooler, & I fell asleep. When the first ray of sunlight announced the onset of day, I awaoke. The train, swathed in a red cloud of dust, was making a turn round a steep red cliff. On a jagged rock above us a slim, brownish-black figure stood motionless, leaning on a long spear, looking down at the train. Beside him towered a gigantic candelabrum cactus.

I was enchanted by this sight - it was a picture of something utterly alien & outside my experience, but on the other hand a most intense sentiment du deja vu. I had the feeling that I had already experienced this moment & had always known this world which was seperated from me only by distance in time. It was as if I were this moment returning to the land of my youth, & as if I knew that dark skinned man who had been waiting for me forr five thousand years. Jung, ‘Memories, Dreams, Reflections’ (On his journey to Kenya & Uganda)
What Tolkien is giving us in this moment of ‘vision’ is an equally timeless moment within Middle-earth. An Elf, crowned with stars, stands poised against the coming darkness, & utters a prayer. A moment later he will move, & strike down the symbol of that darkness, but that moment of silent, watching prayer, for me, sums up so much of the Legendarium, its mood & its meaning, & the philosophical vision behind it.

(Its also Legolas ‘great’ moment within the LotR for me, so I wanted to single it out before we move on.)
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 02:26 AM   #17
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
What Tolkien is giving us in this moment of ‘vision’ is an equally timeless moment within Middle-earth. An Elf, crowned with stars, stands poised against the coming darkness, & utters a prayer. A moment later he will move, & strike down the symbol of that darkness, but that moment of silent, watching prayer, for me, sums up so much of the Legendarium, its mood & its meaning, & the philosophical vision behind it.
Indeed; the moment jumped out at me as well, and I thought of the woman crowned with stars in Revelation (Mary <> Elbereth??) and her subsequent conflict with the dragon; a rather odd correlation and one that I still haven't thought through...

Frodo calls the shadow Cold, as opposed to the balrog. That sent me back to Weathertop and other nazgul encounters, and the words cold, chill, icy are pervasive throughout the Nazgul encounters and discussions of Frodo's knife-wound. Still thinking about when evil in M-E is hot, as opposed to cold. The B-W was cold as well so it's not a Nazgul-only thing. Death-cold versus demonic-hot perhaps. Morgoth's servants hot, Sauron's servants cold...?

(it might make more sense in the morning... I may edit then)
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 08:48 AM   #18
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

Quote:
Originally posted by SpM:
Precisely. But, like the Fellowship, there is a danger in letting ourselves be carried through space and time for too long. There comes a time when we must take positive action to "go against the flow"
Reminds me of that saying "Don't be a follower, be a leader." Sometimes being a leader, means you can't be a "follower." In these closing chapters Aragorn really begins to struggle about being the "leader," and taking on himself the role of Gandalf. Instead they follow down the Anduin, and as already pointed out, follow too far, bad things can happen. The next two chapters we get to see Aragorn really sort of fall apart, and hit rock bottom, as he seems to break to the pressure of being that "leader" of the company, being a "Gandalf." Not good news considering he's the future King of Gondor (of course we all know what a great leader Aragorn does become), I think when Aragorn and Eomer meet, there is great symbolism between the strength and friendship between the two future kings, and it helps Aragorn become the Leader we see at the end of the story. But, these next two chapters, I'll get to some quotes when the time comes, we really get to see Aragorn down on himself for the decisions he made. Maybe he's trying to be too much like Gandalf, and not like himself? Who knows?
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 09:52 AM   #19
Aldarion Elf-Friend
Animated Skeleton
 
Aldarion Elf-Friend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Playing in Peoria
Posts: 35
Aldarion Elf-Friend has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
In these closing chapters Aragorn really begins to struggle about being the "leader," and taking on himself the role of Gandalf. Instead they follow down the Anduin, and as already pointed out, follow too far, bad things can happen. The next two chapters we get to see Aragorn really sort of fall apart, and hit rock bottom, as he seems to break to the pressure of being that "leader" of the company, being a "Gandalf." Maybe he's trying to be too much like Gandalf, and not like himself? Who knows?
I would go a step further and say that the events of the next few chapters, as set up in this one, serve to refine and galvanize Aragorn. He is reluctant at first to take the mantle upon him, but finally does so as he chases down the Urek-Hai. By the time he reaches Helm's Deep he is ready to lead men without Gandalf (ironic, since Gandalf is back with them at this point, although not at the Deep itself).

I would even say that without the events at the end of FotR and begining of TT, Aragorn would not have been ready to assume his throne in Gondor. His blaming himself for his indecisiveness leading to the capture of Merry and Pippen taught him a valuable lesson that served him well for the rest of his life.
Aldarion Elf-Friend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 11:09 AM   #20
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

Well said Aldarion. That is why I'm glad Aragorn didn't go to Minas Tirith at this stage of the journey, because clearly he wasn't ready for it. But, by the end of the story he has become a changed Character indeed.

I know I've said this many times, and I'll say it again, because I think it supports another point. In one of Tolkien's earlier writings, Aragorn goes to Minas Tirith, with Boromir. Boromir goes against Aragorn's throne claiming and starts stirring up a civil war. Aragorn then has to kill Boromir before he gathers too much support. This is similar to the Arvedui claim. Where Arvedui clearly had the "proof," and the "right" to the throne, but he didn't have the support of the Steward, or the full support of the people, causing the Kin Strife. I'm afraid if Aragorn goes with Minas Tirith with Boromir, he only has the "proof" to the throne, he doesn't have the support of the people. How does Aragorn get this support, his battle experience, at the Morannon, and at Pelennor. Then, the people are rallied behind him, and even the Steward Faramir, knowing it is wise to step down, because Aragorn has the right to the throne, and seeing Aragorn's battle experiences he has the support of the people. Where if he simply went to Minas Tirith at this stage, and took claim to the throne, the people would see him as a nuisance, and could try to go against him.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 02:07 AM   #21
Lhunardawen
Hauntress of the Havens
 
Lhunardawen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,724
Lhunardawen has been trapped in the Barrow!
Silmaril

Please don't kill me, but when I first thought about this chapter, the only thing that comes to mind is the Argonath.
Quote:
The left hand was raised as a gesture of warning...
Doubtless a warning to foes who think of assailing Minas Tirith. But could it also be a warning to the Fellowship? That they would be broken, someone would die an untimely death, or succumb to evil in any way? But the upraised hand can also be a sign of peace or welcome, to those who were returning to the land of Gondor, or to their allies. So the Argonath is welcoming the Fellowship, and at the same time giving them a warning.

Here is shown the perfect epitome of a swoon-worthy man..."Strider, and yet not Strider," no longer a Ranger, now "a king returning from exile to his own land." It was enough to make you proud of him, then he says...
Quote:
Would that Gandalf were here! How my heart yearns for Minas Tirith and the walls of my own city! But whither now shall I go?
For me, his acceptance of helplessness without Gandalf makes him swoon-worthier than ever. But it seems that their delaying tactic of travelling by boat did not help him much...
Lhunardawen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 06:15 PM   #22
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,468
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
Reminds me of that saying "Don't be a follower, be a leader." Sometimes being a leader, means you can't be a "follower." In these closing chapters Aragorn really begins to struggle about being the "leader," and taking on himself the role of Gandalf. Instead they follow down the Anduin, and as already pointed out, follow too far, bad things can happen.
I never really saw it like this before, but it makes a lot of sense. What might be viewed simply as an "action-packed" incident on the River in fact marks a major stage in Aragorns' transformation into someone worthy of taking up the throne of Gondor. He learns a valuable lesson that, as a leader, he cannot allow himself, or those under his charge, simply be swept along by time and events for too long. As Aldarion points out, the lesson is not fully learned until the Fellowship breaks, but I see this incident as a definate part of the process.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 05:53 PM   #23
Lathriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lathriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
Lathriel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Lhunardawen, I wouldn't kill you because I always think the same way about this chapter.
However, when re-reading LOTR I also think of the entwives who had their gardens in the brownlands (When they weren't any brownlands yet) That thought always makes me very sad because you do get a very strong sense that the magic in ME is waning and that certain things are coming at an end.
Of course this is amphisized by the knowledge that the Fellowship may have to be split up and that some may never see eachother again.

One reason why I always think of the Argonath is because there is something about the descriptionthat Tolkien used which makes me remember them.

Quote:Upon great pedestals founded in the deep waters stood two great kings of stone:still with blurred eyes and crannied brows they frowned upon the North.The Left hand of each was raised palm outwards in gesture of warning;in each right hand there was an axe;upon each head there was a crumbling helm and crown.

Of course this once again shows that Gondor has weakened since the days of old. In general all these kind of images give me a feeling of sadness.
__________________
Back again
Lathriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 07:34 PM   #24
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,346
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
White Tree

This is a transitional chapter, not a blockbuster like some, but it's got more than a little action, between the River, Gollum, and the orks on shore. Having grown up canoeing down the Red Deer River through the Alberta prairie, I find this an especially easy chapter to imagine, though I don't think my Albertan-painted imaginings are quite accurate.

Gollum creeping continuously behind the Fellowship, ready to potentially throttle them in their sleep, is quite a creepy mental image, and while it's comforting to know Aragorn has been warding them (not unlike Rangers and the Shire), it's all the more frightening once Frodo and Sam go off alone, without his protection.

And the Argonath... is there anything that speaks to the fictional sightseer quite so much as these millennia-old megaliths? It puts the magnitude of Numenor's long-since-faded power into emotional terms, experiencing it this way.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:44 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.