The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2004, 06:30 AM   #1
Gelmir
Haunting Spirit
 
Gelmir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lothlorein
Posts: 62
Gelmir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gelmir
Palantir-Green Strange Curses!

When reading "The passing of the grey company" a thought came to me. How were the men of the mountains cursed? I think it was Isildur who cursed them, (correct me if I’m wrong), If so, how did he do that? He was a mortal, how could he have such powers to curse someone so?
To me he would need to be an ainur of some description to have powers like this. Did he have a wizard friend or something?
Can anyone help?
Gelmir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:04 AM   #2
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,135
Morsul the Dark has been trapped in the Barrow!
This conused me as well

ALthough perhaps being as powerful as he was he, at least in the beginning, could bend the ring ever so slightly (because I believe the ring was weakened mainly out of confusion at having a new master) and used it to curse them
__________________
I know something you don't know
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:18 AM   #3
dancing spawn of ungoliant
Mischievous Candle
 
dancing spawn of ungoliant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam.
Posts: 1,267
dancing spawn of ungoliant has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to dancing spawn of ungoliant
There's only this problem that Isildur cursed the men before he went to war against Sauron i.e. he didn't have the Ring then.
" And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk..."
If Isildur had lost the battle the curse wouldn't have worked (or that is how I understand it).
__________________
Fenris Wolf
dancing spawn of ungoliant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:23 AM   #4
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,135
Morsul the Dark has been trapped in the Barrow!
ALright and Ill now admit I thought it was after my mistake... but that does not explain how he did the curse and I think if a mortal can curse an entire army for an eternity then a red eye can manifest on top of a tower

here's my second less magical answers

He filled the souls of the warriors with such guilt that they did not feel worthy of death and stayed to the land.... but why curse them only if you win.... It would make more sense to curse them if you lose (indeed curse them either way) but if you lost it may have been the lack of warriors you had and their army was the amount need to overpower the dark lord...
__________________
I know something you don't know
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:26 AM   #5
Son of Númenor
A Shade of Westernesse
 
Son of Númenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 519
Son of Númenor has just left Hobbiton.
I don't think, Morsul, that it was the power of the Ring that Isildur used to curse the dead army. If it were, then likely only the person who wielded the Ring could lift the curse; as it was, the person who lifted the curse was Aragorn, Heir of Isildur, not Frodo, Ring-bearer.

In many mythologies, curses (and oaths) are very serious business, no matter who the curser is. The 'curse' is tied up with the concept of 'fate vs. free will' that runs as a primary theme throughout Tolkien's works (Morgoth's curse on the House of Hurin, the Oath of Feanor, etc). In a world where two opposing entities - fate and free will - are constantly at work, where prophecies and oaths are being made and curses cast, and where only the Creator can see all ends, a being such as Morgoth has no more 'right' or 'ability' to curse than a mortal man.
Son of Númenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 08:43 AM   #6
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
There's a very old and very interesting thread that examines this topic: "The curse of Isildur..." Old-timers will remember Saulotus in his surfer-dude persona in this one.

That discussion spawned a more generalized -- but still quite interesting -- discussion of "Magic in Middle-earth".

For those who like perusing scrolls of ancient and nearly-forgotten lore...
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:08 AM   #7
Gelmir
Haunting Spirit
 
Gelmir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lothlorein
Posts: 62
Gelmir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gelmir
Boots Annoyance

I hate it when that happens, you think you've started a good topic, and then someone has to ruins it by directing you to another, it's alright Underhill. Any hoo, lets see the old and dusty topic then.
Its pretty cool.

Hooray, I'm now a pile o' bones!
Gelmir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:11 AM   #8
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,738
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Don't take me wrong, Gelmir. Those topics are very old and many of their participants don't even post here anymore. I thought they might be worth looking at to see what ideas others had had, but there's no reason the topic can't be continued here, perhaps fueled by and building from those older ideas.
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:20 AM   #9
Gelmir
Haunting Spirit
 
Gelmir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lothlorein
Posts: 62
Gelmir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gelmir
Thumbs up Any more strange curses?

It's okay, sorry, if I sounded (I don't think you can hear the tone of my voice, mind) sarcastic. So, any way. If anyone can think of any strange curses that you don't know how it happened, just type in, and we could all debate it together, like some...
Gelmir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:22 AM   #10
Gelmir
Haunting Spirit
 
Gelmir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lothlorein
Posts: 62
Gelmir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gelmir
Thumbs up Yay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Underhill
Don't take me wrong, Gelmir. Those topics are very old and many of their participants don't even post here anymore. I thought they might be worth looking at to see what ideas others had had, but there's no reason the topic can't be continued here, perhaps fueled by and building from those older ideas.
I've got my answer, thanks dude!
Gelmir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:31 AM   #11
Hookbill the Goomba
Alive without breath
 
Hookbill the Goomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 6,153
Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Tolkien

Right...

Left...

Anyway, Here's one,
Melkor proclaimed the curse of Hurin, He had power to make such a curse, yes?
Now, the thing is, this curse was a major curse! It affected his children, (I.E Turin) and all who came into contact with them. If, (and this is a big IF) the line of Hurin had continued on after Turin, would the curse still have held?
This is something that had puzzled me for a while.
I came up with a solution; There is an awful lot of talk of the word 'Fate' wafting around the Downs, Devine intervention and such alike, which leads to all the deep philosophical stuff that Tolkien perhaps did not see coming when he rote the epic. I think that, although the fate was disastrous and tragic, perhaps it WAS divine intervention that stopped the Line of Hurin so that the curse would not continue and do more hurt to Arda and its peoples.

Any thoughts?
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once.
THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...
Hookbill the Goomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:46 AM   #12
Rimbaud
The Perilous Poet
 
Rimbaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Heart of the matter
Posts: 1,096
Rimbaud has just left Hobbiton.
In my thinking, this has always been Tolkien utilising an old tradition in fantastical writing. The use of the curse is ancient in life and literature, and I do not believe JRRT intended for this 'magic' to have any sort of logical system.
__________________
And all the rest is literature
Rimbaud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 09:50 AM   #13
Gelmir
Haunting Spirit
 
Gelmir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lothlorein
Posts: 62
Gelmir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gelmir
Question Are you starting an argument?

how about enchantment?
__________________
No more knee caps for you!
No more Life for you!
And you! No more toe nails for you! mwahahaha!
Gelmir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2004, 02:29 PM   #14
InklingElf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 421
InklingElf has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to InklingElf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rimbaud
In my thinking, this has always been Tolkien utilising an old tradition in fantastical writing. The use of the curse is ancient in life and literature, and I do not believe JRRT intended for this 'magic' to have any sort of logical system.
I'll have to second Rimbaud on that statement.

I also found an interesting post by the Barrow Wight on the curse of Isildur board (thanks for that link Mister Underhill):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrow Wight
What sets the Men of the White Mountains apart from the other traitorous Men of Middle-Earth, especially those unfaithful ones of the First Age. Elves, seemingly closer to Eru than Men (or are they just closer to the Valar?), are never reported as having asked for such a curse against Man or Elf. And they were betrayed more often than not.

All facts point to Isildur having the power of God. This is the same Isildur later slain after falling into the temptation of evil (the Ring).
Is this a Numenorian trait?
InklingElf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2004, 07:51 AM   #15
gorthaur_cruel
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 92
gorthaur_cruel has just left Hobbiton.
Actually, I believe that the answer can be found in Unfinished Tales, in Narn i Hin Hurin. The following quote could explain this (emphasis mine).

Quote:
(Mim) '...But this I will add: he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him.'
Androg was afraid when he heard of this curse; and though he did so with great grudge, he broke his bow and his arrows and laid them at the dead Dwarf's feet. But as he came out from the chamber, he glanced evilly at Mim, and muttered: 'The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home. May he die with a dart in his throat!'
So I believe that Men can lay curses too.
gorthaur_cruel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2004, 09:34 AM   #16
Gelmir
Haunting Spirit
 
Gelmir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lothlorein
Posts: 62
Gelmir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gelmir
Shield I'm going to ask a question, :D

Oh, Great(no sarcasm intended)! So could any other race lay a curse apart from man and elf, oh and miar and valar? Like hobbits, do they have ebough strength in them to do it?

Take into mind I haven't read all of Tolkeins Middle earth books
__________________
No more knee caps for you!
No more Life for you!
And you! No more toe nails for you! mwahahaha!
Gelmir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2004, 05:28 PM   #17
InklingElf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 421
InklingElf has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to InklingElf
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel
'The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home.
Is that a general statement then?

I wonder if these curses are only imminent in the Royal blood-lines, hence Isildur's curse. From my understanding kings of Numenor (like Aragorn in ROTK when he called upon Eowyn's soul) utilize the power of words in strong and profound ways -- whether in healing or felling...
InklingElf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2004, 03:31 AM   #18
Earendilyon
Wight
 
Earendilyon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
Earendilyon has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

In the thread Oaths & Oathbreaking there's also some nice discussion on the Curse of the Grey Company, albeit from another angle.
__________________
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me."

Dominus Anulorum

TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.
Earendilyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2004, 07:34 PM   #19
Lhundulinwen
Wight
 
Lhundulinwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wishin' and hopin' in the Shire
Posts: 139
Lhundulinwen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Lhundulinwen Send a message via MSN to Lhundulinwen Send a message via Yahoo to Lhundulinwen
Silmaril

Personally, I think a curse is like an ultimate oath, or maybe an oath with a definate consequence. In ME, as well as most classical mythological stories and the Bible, if you break an oath some type of retribution will result. A curse, at least in Isildur's case, is what happens after an oath is broken. The point of Isildur's curse is to not give you're word lightly or dishonestly or Aragorn will come a few 1,000 years later and MAKE you fulfill your oath. That's my version of it anyways, .
__________________
~*Just call on me, and I'm there. I'll always be your Sam*~
Lhundulinwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2004, 03:13 AM   #20
InklingElf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 421
InklingElf has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to InklingElf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhundulinwen
Personally, I think a curse is like an ultimate oath, or maybe an oath with a definate consequence. In ME, as well as most classical mythological stories and the Bible, if you break an oath some type of retribution will result. A curse, at least in Isildur's case, is what happens after an oath is broken. The point of Isildur's curse is to not give you're word lightly or dishonestly or Aragorn will come a few 1,000 years later and MAKE you fulfill your oath. That's my version of it anyways, .
in other words: what goes around comes around
InklingElf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2004, 12:27 AM   #21
Nilpaurion Felagund
Scion of The Faithful
 
Nilpaurion Felagund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,379
Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via MSN to Nilpaurion Felagund Send a message via Yahoo to Nilpaurion Felagund Send a message via Skype™ to Nilpaurion Felagund
Pipe

Quote:
It had been held lawful only for the King of Númenor to call Eru to witness, and then only on the most grave and solemn occasions. The line of the Kings came to an end in Ar-Pharazôn who perished in the Downfall; but Elendil Voronda was descended from Tar-Elendil the fourth King, and was held to be the rightful lord of the Faithful, who had taken no part in the rebellion of the Kings and had been preserved from destruction. (UT III 2 - endnote 44)
Perhaps the people of the King of the Mountains had sworn an oath not dissimilar to the one sworn by Éorl to Cirion. And since both Isildur and Cirion called Eru in witness, any effects of those oaths will be upheld by Eru.
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo)
You can't tell an ordinary man and a weirdo apart until they act.
I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Nilpaurion Felagund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2004, 01:25 AM   #22
InklingElf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 421
InklingElf has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to InklingElf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund
Perhaps the people of the King of the Mountains had sworn an oath not dissimilar to the one sworn by Éorl to Cirion. And since both Isildur and Cirion called Eru in witness, any effects of those oaths will be upheld by Eru.
That IS a logical conclusion...
InklingElf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:22 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.