The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-29-2002, 10:49 AM   #1
Elenglin
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 24
Elenglin has just left Hobbiton.
Boots Monkeys eat bananas, right?

Were there monkeys/apes in ME?

In The Two Towers Ugluk calls one of the orcs a monkey or an ape (In finnish version it's 'Apina' which means both Monkey and Ape.) I'd like to know what the English version says..

One of the Barrow-Downs' Comic-contest-judges said (commenting one of the comics) that there were probably no bananas in ME, so I assume that there were no Monkeys either.
__________________
"Sinun pelloillasi on jättiläinen, suunnattoman suuri jättiläinen, ja hän on tulossa tähän suuntaan", koira sanoi.
"Apua! Apua! Hän talloo jalkoihinsa sinun lampaasi. Hän on astunut Galathea-raukan päälle, ja se on lituskainen kuin kynnysmatto. Apua! Apua! Hän ruhjoo kaikki sinun pensasaitasi ja hän survoo kaiken viljasi. Sinun täytyy toimia rohkeasti ja nopeasti, isäntä, tai kohta sinulla ei ole mitään jäljellä! Apua!" Garm puhkesi ulvomaan.
Elenglin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 11:07 AM   #2
Sharkû
Hungry Ghoul
 
Sharkû's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,721
Sharkû has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

At the battle of Helm's Deep, we have:
Quote:
Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South.
Two general possibilities: a) there are no monkeys in Arda or Middle-Earth, and that was merely a translation of an animal that is similar to it, but unknown in our real world, or even just a figure of speech by the translator who wrote it in English.

However, especially the above quote makes things quite obviously this way: there are apes, but of course not in the climate of Gondor, Rohan, or the Shire, but in the hot and dense jungles to the South, in Harad. The same would go for bananas.
Sharkû is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 11:47 AM   #3
zifnab
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
zifnab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: omni-presence
Posts: 331
zifnab has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

It appears that "Ape" and "Swine" were common insults with the Orcs.

'Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape!' he snarled fiercely. - Grishnákh to Uglúk.

Sharkey sounds right, if they said Apes then there mustbe some reference to them. Probably somewhere remote. An endangered species, perhaps. I also think that Apes could survive with a lack of bananas just fine. Maybe they had a diet of Strawberries, turnips and potatoes, and the occasional critter that got in its way.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]
__________________
Facebook.
zifnab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 11:52 AM   #4
Sharkû
Hungry Ghoul
 
Sharkû's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,721
Sharkû has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

And, if knowledge of apes so far north seems strange, consider that the Hobbits knew about Oliphaunts.

Actually, Orcs probably used far less pleasant things than _ape_ and _swine_ in their insults...
Quote:
But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find.
[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]
Sharkû is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 12:16 PM   #5
Sîdhrîs
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 60
Sîdhrîs has just left Hobbiton.
As far as I know, monkeys don't exclusively eat bananas, but also leaves, other fruits, insects, bird's eggs... Nice menu, ain't it? So I think at this diet they could have existed in ME, maybe somewhere in the South?
Sîdhrîs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 12:47 PM   #6
VanimaEdhel
Etheral Enchantress
 
VanimaEdhel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wellesley College!
Posts: 1,473
VanimaEdhel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to VanimaEdhel Send a message via MSN to VanimaEdhel
Silmaril

Monkeys eat a lot of things other than bananas...bananas aren't monkey's #1 food even, I believe. It's like the idea with mice: how they don't JUST eat cheese, they eat almost anything.

Monkeys could have existed, for many other animals we know existed then (even elephants!).

So, in conclusion, there could have been monkeys.


There! I edited it! You happy, zif? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ]
__________________
"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes
VanimaEdhel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 01:54 PM   #7
Orodhromeus
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Greece
Posts: 106
Orodhromeus has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orodhromeus
Sting

Could they live in Ithilien? What was the climate of Itihlien anyway? Excuse me, but I'm not good in botanics and I don't remember much of the plant/tree species mentioned there. Could the Ithilien be a tropical/temperate jungle?
Orodhromeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 02:34 PM   #8
zifnab
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
zifnab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: omni-presence
Posts: 331
zifnab has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

In my understanding Elephants and Oliphants are seperate creatures. In the same line, but different. Oliphants were the larger of the two and used more for war then anything else.

Gandalf uses the expression, "Great Eliphants", in the the Hobbit.

True, Sharkey. But you can't deny me the simple pleasure of posting the "common insult". [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
Facebook.
zifnab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 04:56 PM   #9
Mirkgirl
Haunting Spirit
 
Mirkgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 84
Mirkgirl has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Skype™ to Mirkgirl
Sting

I think Tolkein just wanted to use an animal ofence there, but representing a whole new animal would have taken too much, so he just used one we know, meaning some close MEanimal.
__________________
"Hobbits! Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this."
Mirkgirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 05:40 PM   #10
Sharkû
Hungry Ghoul
 
Sharkû's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,721
Sharkû has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

You're so ziffy [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, I have found some monkeys when browsing through some pages of LotR lately:
Sharkû is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 05:55 PM   #11
VanimaEdhel
Etheral Enchantress
 
VanimaEdhel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wellesley College!
Posts: 1,473
VanimaEdhel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to VanimaEdhel Send a message via MSN to VanimaEdhel
Silmaril

Okay, excuse me zif, but still, you know what I mean...I'll edit the message if it'll make you happy! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
__________________
"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes
VanimaEdhel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2002, 11:45 PM   #12
Bruce MacCulloch
Dead Man of Dunharrow
 
Bruce MacCulloch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 652
Bruce MacCulloch has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Yahoo to Bruce MacCulloch
Ring

Of course monkeys, apes, etc existed in Arda. Tolkien makes it very clear that Middle Earth is the north-east of Europe approximately 6,000 years ago. Arda is Earth, not some made-up planet.
__________________
`A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'
Bruce MacCulloch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2002, 09:51 AM   #13
Aralaithiel
Ghost Eldaran Queen
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
Posts: 353
Aralaithiel has just left Hobbiton.
Question

Then why can't there be unicorns, pegasi, etc.? Sorry, I am on a unicorn bent right now.
I'm glad to know that there are some of us that know that bananas are not the primary diet of monkeys. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Very interesting thread! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"
Aralaithiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2002, 07:30 PM   #14
Niere-Teleliniel
Haunting Spirit
 
Niere-Teleliniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a messy room on the third floor.
Posts: 67
Niere-Teleliniel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

who said there werent unicorns and pegasi?
__________________
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it....

~Douglas Adams
Niere-Teleliniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2002, 09:16 PM   #15
Birdland
Ghastly Neekerbreeker
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto
Posts: 1,757
Birdland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

This thread is starting to sound like an Irish Rover song!
Birdland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2002, 03:21 PM   #16
Aralaithiel
Ghost Eldaran Queen
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
Posts: 353
Aralaithiel has just left Hobbiton.
1420!

Ya know, I was starting to think the same thing, Birdland! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"
Aralaithiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2004, 01:28 PM   #17
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Up, as Fifteen Foot Rabbits are invading forests of Arda...
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2004, 06:10 AM   #18
Noxomanus
Wight
 
Noxomanus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 233
Noxomanus has just left Hobbiton.
Monkeys eating only bananas is probably the most ignorant thing I've ever read here. That means not that many posts here are ignorant though.

I know that me saying this is disliked but I think that still thinking monkeys only eat this type of fruit at your age displays a severe hiatus in your biological upbringing. Blame it on your parents,if you like.
__________________
Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

Last edited by Noxomanus; 08-08-2004 at 01:38 PM.
Noxomanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2004, 12:25 PM   #19
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,752
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
err it is possible they typed tongue in cheek ?

I think Tolkien describes Bilbo as screaming like a steam train in the hobbit....and there weren't any of those in ME..... but I think Tom Shippey deals with this in "Master of middle Earth".....
__________________
I see dead people.
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:32 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.