Dior - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thingol · 02-16-2002, 07:26 PM

Dior was concieved after Luthien gave up her immortaility to remain with Beren in Middle Earth. My question is is Dior considered half elven even though Luthien was mortal when she gave birth to him?

Lindolirian · 02-16-2002, 07:37 PM

Luthien was still an Elf when she gave birth. She was a mortal Elf but an Elf nonetheless. Also she was the Half elven because Thingol was an Elf and Melian was a Maia. Dior was of the Three-Fold Race. Man, Elf, Ainu.

Thingol · 03-19-2002, 10:31 PM

In Letter 153 JRRT says:

Quote:

"Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal'..."

Because it says that Luthien was an absolute exception it seems to me that Dior was a mortal, and so were his two sons. Now that causes a problem because if both Dior and his sons were considered Mortal then should not have been allowed to chose which race to belong to. Also there is the situation with Prince Imrahil. His foremother, Mithrellas, was an elf, but none of his ancestors were given the choice of which race they desired to belong to. There seems to be a double standard.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Mhoram · 03-20-2002, 09:19 AM

Thingol, you need to be more careful with your quotes. It looks like all that is in the quote box if from tolkien's letters, when actually only the first sentence:

Quote:

In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal'

is actually from Tolkien.

We don't really know whether Dior was full mortal or half-elven with a choice, because he was only 35 to 37 when he was slain.

There are two possibilities.
A) He was half-elven with a choice.
B) He was full mortal without a choice.

We know that he wedded a full elf and their children were half-elven with a choice, we know this because their daughter Elwing made a choice.

This holds true for both A and B. Elrond was a half-elven who married a full elf and his children were still considered half-elven and given a choice. And if he had been full mortal, having married a full elf, Elwing and brothers would still have been half-elven.

I would personally assume that Dior was Half-Elven and decided, or would have decided to be counted among elves. I feel this way because he was accepted so happily as king of Doriath.

Of course, much of what we know comes from Christopher Tolkien instead of John, because the Ruin of Doriath had to be written mostly by Chris. *shrugs*

Voronwe · 03-20-2002, 02:13 PM

The 'Judgement of Manwe' referred to in Thingol's quote (which, I think, was from a previous thread) is to be found in HoME V. It is part of the material that was used to make up the final chapter of the Silmarillion, though Chris Tolkien didn't actually include all of it in the Silm.

The judgement takes place after Eärendil delivers his message to the Valar.

Quote:

Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves of Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.

Compare this to the equivalent passage in the published Silmarillion, which, as well as being quite extensively edited, lacks the part about anyone of mortal descent being mortal unless there was a special exception.

Quote:

But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'

I don't know why Chris Tolkien didn't include the entire passage from HoME V in the Silm. According to this passage, at least, Dior and his sons would have been mortal (unless Manwë with the authority of Eru made them a special case, which is quite possible given their circumstances).

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Voronwe ]

Thingol · 03-20-2002, 02:17 PM

I must have been cutting and pasting too quickly, because I did not even realize that I had taken part of Tar-Elenion's opinions with the actual quote. The post was from the Half Elves thread in the New Silm project. I had just read the thread and remembered this thread that I posted a long time ago. I have edited the post and only included the part from the letters. Sorry for any confusion.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Thingol · 03-20-2002, 02:34 PM

Thanks Voronwe, I think I have a better understanding now. Imrahil and his ancestors would not have been given a choice because they of coarse had mortal blood in them, and had not really done anything comparible with the deeds of Eärendil and Elwing.

Mhoram · 03-20-2002, 02:50 PM

Thanks Thingol, it happens.

Voronwe, great post, so it comes down to, what is canon?

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-20-2002, 02:59 PM

I'd say the full quote from the HoME, since it was Christopher Tolkien who edited the Silm. It would have been the reverse of course if the Silm. had been published in a form determined by "John" as we refer to Tolkien here.

Mhoram · 03-20-2002, 03:03 PM

But we don't know what John would have kept and what he would have discarded.

EDIT - *Ronald

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-20-2002, 03:06 PM

Quote:

"John" as we refer to Tolkien here.

If you must call the Professor by his given name, at least call him Ronald since that is what he called himself and signed his letters with.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

Mhoram · 03-20-2002, 03:21 PM

Will do [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

02-16-2002, 07:26 PM	#1
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Dior Dior was concieved after Luthien gave up her immortaility to remain with Beren in Middle Earth. My question is is Dior considered half elven even though Luthien was mortal when she gave birth to him? __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-16-2002, 07:37 PM	#2
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	Luthien was still an Elf when she gave birth. She was a mortal Elf but an Elf nonetheless. Also she was the Half elven because Thingol was an Elf and Melian was a Maia. Dior was of the Three-Fold Race. Man, Elf, Ainu. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

03-20-2002, 02:17 PM	#6
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	I must have been cutting and pasting too quickly, because I did not even realize that I had taken part of Tar-Elenion's opinions with the actual quote. The post was from the Half Elves thread in the New Silm project. I had just read the thread and remembered this thread that I posted a long time ago. I have edited the post and only included the part from the letters. Sorry for any confusion. [ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-20-2002, 02:34 PM	#7
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Thanks Voronwe, I think I have a better understanding now. Imrahil and his ancestors would not have been given a choice because they of coarse had mortal blood in them, and had not really done anything comparible with the deeds of Eärendil and Elwing. __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-20-2002, 02:59 PM	#9
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	I'd say the full quote from the HoME, since it was Christopher Tolkien who edited the Silm. It would have been the reverse of course if the Silm. had been published in a form determined by "John" as we refer to Tolkien here. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-20-2002, 02:50 PM	#8
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Thanks Thingol, it happens. Voronwe, great post, so it comes down to, what is canon?

03-20-2002, 03:03 PM	#10
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	But we don't know what John would have kept and what he would have discarded. EDIT - *Ronald [ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

03-20-2002, 03:21 PM	#12
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Will do [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]