Ring wraiths vs. Balrogs

[Aule]

I accept that a few Balrogs esp Gothmog could have been an equal to Saurons power. But in this case i would think that the Balrog in Moria would not have been as powerful.
It is an undisputable fact that the Balrogs were immensly powerful as they could beat down ungoliant that even their master Melkor was having trouble with.
The orcs had been in Moria for many hundreds of years and there is no statement by tolkien saying that the Orcs and Balrog had come into conflict in this entire time. Leading me to assume that this was because that the Balrog was aware of Sauron and was letting his troops be.
Although as Obloquy has said in the post above this, maybe the Balrog had no chance to fight the Orcs as they kept out of the Balrogs way completely out of fear.
Either is equally plausible in my opinion

[obloquy]

No, none of the Balrogs were as powerful as Sauron. Not even Gothmog. Sorry.

Sauron may have known about the Balrog, but there's no indication either way. The orcs of Moria are not Sauron's troops.

[TarElendil]

It seems many of you are not basing your opinions on facts of Tolkien's works. I agree with Gimli. The balrogs werent as powerful as sauron.

[Thingol]

In the tale of years in the back of The Return of the King it says that in 2480, Sauron peoples Moria with his troops. Sauron mut have at least known about the existance of the Balrog. The Balrog and Sauron must have at least had an understanding. Obloquy is correct, not even Gothmog was stronger than Sauron. And just because the Balrogs were maiar does not mean that one Balrog could defeat all nine Nazgul. After a maia incarnates itself, it loses a great deal of its original power. The nine wringwraiths were originally men of great power, and their rings enhanced there abilities greatly. From textual evidence it can be deduced that the 9 Nazgul would have been able to defeat a Balrog. Glorfindel slew a Balrog. Glorfindel and Aragorn together cannot stand against all nine Nazgul together. One on one a Balrog is going o defeat a Nazgul. But all nine Nazgul against one Balrog, the Nazgul are going to win.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

You can't be sure. Although Glorfindel killed a balrog, he died himself. And at the battle in Arnor, the witch-king flees when Glorfindel arrives, fearing a confrontation. And it is Glorfindel who drives the nazgûl into the river Bruinen, just be threatening them. Remember, the greatest weapon of the nazgûl was the fear their enemies had for them, and a balrog has no reason to fear a ring-wraith, who has no weapons to harm a balrog. I think the balrog would kill the ring-wraiths easily.

[Rosa_Baggins]

Balrogs arent as powerful as Sauron.Think of it as an army.There are ranks, no?Its probably the same on th evil side if you will.

[TarElendil]

And it is Glorfindel who drives the nazgûl into the river Bruinen, just be threatening them. Remember, the greatest weapon of the nazgûl was the fear their enemies had for them, and a balrog has no reason to fear a ring-wraith, who has no weapons to harm a balrog. I think the balrog would kill the ring-wraiths easily

The nazgul were driven into the water by their horses. The horses were in a crazed state and went into the water. I for one think that a Balrog would fear the Nazgul a bit. Morgoth alone of the Vala knew fear because he was full of malice and hatred. Do you forgot that a Nazgul can wield weapons????? You said they have no weapons THAT CAN HURT A BALROG? Then what kind of crap did they use in the defense of gondolin to kill them?? Axes, sword,etc. Like the Nazgul used. I for one think that a Nazgul could take a balrog in single combat.

[Daniel Telcontar]

The Elves had weapons forged by master smiths, and many of them were blessed with the light of the Two Trees. It is not the common elf who kills balrogs, but the really cool elves like Glorfindel. The nazgûl did not have that kind of weapons to kill balrogs. E.g. the morgul knife poisons you, but I don't think a balrog can be poisoned like Frodo was. The swords that the nazgûl wields are hardly powerful enough to harm a balrog.

And I think the nazgûl has so much power over their horses, to prevent the horses from just running of. Glorfindel had a torch, and it was his combined might as an Elf-lord together with the fire that made the nazgûl, not their horses, ride into the river.

My opinion is still that the balrog could kill the ring-wraiths without trouble.

[TarElendil]

The nazgûl did not have that kind of weapons to kill balrogs. E.g. the morgul knife poisons you, but I don't think a balrog can be poisoned like Frodo was. The swords that the nazgûl wields are hardly powerful enough to harm a balrog.

sorry, wrong.
"The black horses were filled with madness, and leaping forward in terror they bore their riders intot he rushing flood." STRAIGHT from the text. "Flight to the Ford" read it

[Daniel Telcontar]

In Gandalf's conversion with Frodo in the next chapter, he says that "the Riders were dismayed", when seeing an Elf-lord in his rage, so that must mean that an Elf-lord like Glorfindel can scare them. So, although it was the horses who bore them into the water, they were already so terrified, I think they would have rode into the river anyway, also because the Ring-bearer was on the other side.

[TarElendil]

In Gandalf's conversion with Frodo in the next chapter, he says that "the Riders were dismayed", when seeing an Elf-lord in his rage, so that must mean that an Elf-lord like Glorfindel can scare them. So, although it was the horses who bore them into the water, they were already so terrified, I think they would have rode into the river anyway, also because the Ring-bearer was on the other side.

you cannot correctly make an assumption like that. I doubt they would have rode into the water themselves. It says not even glorfindel and Aragorn could withstand all the Nine at once. Just because they were "dismayed" doesnt mean they woulda jumped in the water OR gotten their asses whooped.

[TarElendil]

and them being "dismayed" doesnt mean they were scared sh**less of Glorfindel.

[Daniel Telcontar]

It is an assumption, I give you that, but when they had to choose between an Elf-lord with a torch and water, I think they would have chosen the river.

And it says specifically, that not even Glorfindel and Aragorn on foot could have withstand the Nine. I think it means that they had to let the wraiths pass, because they could not move as quickly as they, nor fight all of them at one time when on foot. Gandalf says that the only hope was for Glorfindel's horse to save Frodo, which means that they could only save Frodo with speed. I am not convinced that the Ring-wraiths, even all nine of them, are cooler than a balrog.

[TarElendil]

they may be kooler, but the nazgul would still own them [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Well, unfortunately, we will never know. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] But I enjoyed our discussion, it made me think!!

[Thingol]

the witch-king flees when Glorfindel arrives, fearing a confrontation.

Yes, as has been said, one on one the Nazgul aren't going to be able to defeat a Balrog, it would take all nine of them together.

Although Glorfindel killed a balrog, he died himself.

The point is Glorfindel got the job done against the Balrog, it died. Both Glorfindel and Aragorn together wouldn't have been able to stop all nine Nazgul.

It is Glorfindel who drives the nazgûl into the river Bruinen, just be threatening them.

It is Glorfindel, Aragorn, and the hobbits together that drive the horses into the river. There is no textual evidence to support that the Nazgul had any more control over their horses then any other rider. And even if they did, why would they flee into the water, which they were also afraid of? According to text, the horses went mad with terror and bore their riders into the flood.

a balrog has no reason to fear a ring-wraith, who has no weapons to harm a balrog.

First off, the Balrogs are capable of fear. They fled the War of Wrath. Secondly, the Balrogs had physical bodies that could be slain. If a Balrog was confronted by an opponent of near equal spiritual/magical strength it could be slain by a weapon. Ecthillion's helmet spike killed Gothmog. If a Balrog gets ran through by a long pointy object, it's going to die. Lastly, the Nazgul had a dark aura of terror that went before them. The Balrogs had a similar aura. The dark aura caused fear, but it was more than just terror, it was the physical reflection of their power on the corporeal world. Every being of great power has such an aura. Most of the time the aura of the good guys is a shrouded white light. Gandalf's aura, Glrofindel's aura, and Galadriel's aura are all described in this fashion. Even Aragorn is described as having an inner power that can flash in his eyes. (most men do not have that type of power) The aura of the bad guys is usually a dark cloud of shadow from which fear emanates. What I'm getting at is the aura of all nine Nazgul combined would have been greater than that of a single Balrog. And all of this is without Sauron having possesion of the One Ring.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Thingol]

This is in response to TarElendil's points on many Balrogs being slain at the fall of Gondolin. In the Book of Lost Tales, volume two, the tale of the Fall of Gondolin is told. Unfortunately that version of events is old and outdated. The balrogs that were conceived of in Tolkien's youth were very different from the one that later evolved to fight Gandalf. The balrogs were much weaker, they rode mechanical dragons, and there were thousand of them. By the end of Tolkien's life the balrogs had been rewritten to be much more powerful, the mechanical dragons were eliminated, and their numbers could have been reduced to as few as three to have ever existed. The slaying of many balrogs at the fall of Gondolin cannot really be accepted as evidence of their power.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[TarElendil]

**Tarelendil claps**
Tolkien cahnged many many things later in his life. he changed the whole shape of middle-earth and other things. Im going by his complete and semi-complete works. the others are usually only parts and sketches.

i would have ot agree with you...the ringwraiths might be powerful, but they were just mortals, so that gives them limited power....plus, balrogs are cooler!!

i would have ot agree with you...the ringwraiths might be powerful, but they were just mortals, so that gives them limited power....plus, balrogs are cooler!!

[Thingol]

*sigh* When posting in a forum for advanced discussions of Middle Earth it is helpful read at least the majority of the previous posts in a topic, and back up what you write with at least a little textual support. You don't have to directly quote, you can paraphrase or cite examples. Even if the evidence has already been stated, at least try and restate it in a somewhat different manner. Lastly, the Nazgul were not mortal, they were immortal for as long as the One Ring was intact.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[TarElendil]

the ringwraiths might be powerful, but they were just mortals, so that gives them limited power

just cause someone is mortal doesnt mean they cant defeat a balrog. Remember also that the balrogs were some of the lesser Maiar, though there power was still great.

[TarElendil]

When posting in a forum for advanced discussions of Middle Earth it is helpful read at least the majority of the previous posts in a topic

was that directed at me?

[Daniel Telcontar]

I don't think so, you are good at discussing, I think the note was meant to knight_link. But someone stated above, that the wraiths were immortal. But where they? Wouldn't the term be undead, or is it a bit extreme caring about such details?

[TarElendil]

well, as thingol said earlier, the nazgul stood and fell by sauron. they were no more when all that sauron had made with the ring and he himself was destroyed. (his physcial form)
they were mortal men but the evil power of the rings devoured their minds and they became invisible and chained to sauron's will. you could say undead

[Thingol]

No, the comment was not direted at you TarElendil, sorry for the confusion.

[obloquy]

The actual entry:

c. 2480 Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.

Notice that the orcs moving into the Misty Mountains, and Sauron peopling Moria with his creatures are separate events. The Misty Mountain orcs are a different breed than those troops of Sauron that we read about in LotR. What "creatures" could mean besides orcs, I don't know, but I think the use of that word is significant. Even if Sauron was behind the populating of Moria with orcs, I don't think it's reasonable to consider them Sauron's 'troops' at the time covered in LotR.

Sauron mut have at least known about the existance of the Balrog. The Balrog and Sauron must have at least had an understanding.

I don't see how this is necessary. Why do you say so? The Balrog appeared in Moria 500 years before Sauron is said to have 'peopled Moria with his creatures', so we know the Balrog wasn't one of the creatures. What reason do we have to believe that Sauron knew of the Balrog, or set up some arrangement with it?

[Thingol]

At the time that Sauron peoples Moria with his creatures the Balrog was inhabiting Moria. Don't you think that Sauron's creatures would have informed Sauron of the Balrog's existance?

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Thingol]

There are several instances in the Lord of the Rings were orcs and especially trolls are referred to as creatures. At some point Sauron’s servants and the Balrog must have met. Over 500 years does pass between Sauron populating Moria with his creatures and the Fellowship entering Moria. It is certainly possible that the orcs and trolls of Moria were not loyal to Sauron at the time of the Lord of the Rings, but I'd say it is equally as likely that they were. I don't see why the Balrog would have any objections to Sauron's creatures cohabiting with him. The Balrog wouldn't necessarily be under Sauron's control, he could just be cooperating. After all, why antagonize someone like Sauron?

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[obloquy]

Maybe. It's speculative, though.


Edit: And I'm not saying that it's odd for Tolkien to use the word 'creatures' in reference to orcs and trolls, just that in this case he refers to orcs first and then to Sauron's 'creatures'.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

I think that Sauron and the Balrog had the same relationship as he and Shelob. Sauron used Shelob as a guard, although he never had actual contact with her.
I think he considered the balrog to be an extra guard at Moria, and so he left him alone. The balrog on the other hand was content with being left alone.
Think of the seven year-war between orcs and dwarves. If the balrog had not been there, the dwarves would have retaken Moria.

Conclusion: The balrog and Sauron may never have meet, but they probably had some sort of agreement like: You (Sauron) keep out of Moria, and I (balrog) keep it clean of dwarves and other enemies.

[Catherine]

Balrogs all da way!!! LOL

[O'Boile]

The Balrog would win. Gandalf dies fighting one, and he is a Maia with a ring. How well would a human with a ring do? No contest on this. Also Galadriel says that there is no greater foe (than a balrog) save the dark lord himself.
Also, I read somewhere (I think that it was in the history of dwarf kings) that the balrog had awoken due to the revival (or re arising... I don't know what to call it) of Sauron. Anyway, the passage certainly implied that the Balrog was beneth him, and would have served him.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I am not sure of that. The balrog fled form the destruction of Angband, and it was the dwarves who woke the balrog when they were searching for mithril. And it seems to me that the balrog did not "sleep" again until Gandalf put it to final sleep.

[Kuruharan]

The text says both.

"Thus they roused from sleep* a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth."

The footnote says, "Or relesed it from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron."

I take all this to mean that the presence of Sauron, who was beginning to stir again at that time, may have at least roused the Balrog into a more restless state of sleep if not exactly awaken it. However, I don't think that this implies that the Balrog was under Sauron. Just roused by the presence of another great evil. Like calling to like, after a fashion. I think the idea of an informal arrangement between the two best fits the evidence that we have.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Orome]

No, none of the Balrogs were as powerful as Sauron. Not even Gothmog. Sorry.

How can you say this? Tolkien never gives a hierarchy of the power of the Maiar.

This is an interesting question, because they are never directly compared, and even indirectly there is little comparison.

while the One Ring is still around it is possible to destroy a nazgul, as evidenced by the killing of Angmar by Merry and Eowyn. I tend to favor the balrog, because it is a creature of fire, and the Nazgul feared fire, so the balrog should be able to single them out for one v. one fighting.

[Kuruharan]

"Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit that the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel."
-The Valaquenta

Also, when Morgoth left Angband to ensnare the newly awakened Men, Sauron was the one left behind in command to fight the war.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Sauron was greater and higher ranking than the Balrogs.

However, I completely agree that a Balrog could turn your average Nazgul into a little pile of ashes.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Orome]

good point. the guy was kinda annoying me

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Orome ]

[Aragost]

The Balrogs would win.The Balrogs were Maiar
after sauron they were Morgoth's most powerful servants.I might be wrong but I think 1 Balrog was =to all the Nazgul put together. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Aragost]

I thought of something else the nazgul were afraid of fire the balrogs had fire.The nazgul would lose,but it does make a good argument. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]