The Inherent Incompatability of Morgoth and Sauron

[Nikkolas]

Morgoth and Sauron, in their degeneration to evil, fell down two separate roads.

Morgoth, in his fury and jealousy and frustration to have his will equal that of Eru, came to detest absolutely everything in existence. His goal was nothing short of the absolute destruction of all, from the tallest mountain to the tiniest molecule. He is what might be called Chaotic Evil.

Sauron is on the other side of the evil spectrum ie. Lawful Evil. Rather than smash everything down, he wanted to build everything up. According to his designs and under his authority of course but his goal and repentance after the First Age was to take the smoking wreck of the world with its many warring peoples and fix it all by having them all under his dominion.

Yet Sauron was Morgoth's top servant and was attracted to Morgoth in the beginning because he longed for what Morgoth could do. Morgoth could order all things according to his whim (in Sauron's eyes anyway) and Sauron is all about order, control.

Did he never know the true mind of his master? That if the forces of evil had prevailed and the Host of the West not come, Melkor probably would have done nothing but perhaps start reducing his grand empire to rubble?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Did he never know the true mind of his master? That if the forces of evil had prevailed and the Host of the West not come, Melkor probably would have done nothing but perhaps start reducing his grand empire to rubble?

I find this observation from 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion' in the "Myths Transformed" section of Morgoth's Ring to be quite relevant regarding Sauron's attitude, especially after the Downfall of Númenor:

"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more."

Note that this is specified as a delusion, which is the best way of explaining how Sauron, who had irrefutable knowledge of the truth and power of his Creator, could still have the motivations that he did.
More importantly, however, is that phrase "the Valar (including Melkor) having failed."
So Sauron considered Melkor to be a failure, seemingly along with or in the same way as his enemies, the Valar. In what way?

1) Melkor had failed by being defeated and expelled from Eä (or at least Arda). This seems unlikely if we're to read that phrase as Sauron perceiving Melkor and the faithful Valar as equivalent failures.
2) Melkor had proven himself to be too weak, flawed of character or lacking in conviction to carry out his plans, not unlike (it could be argued) the Valar themselves, who had seemingly become very passive.

We can't forget how Morgoth develops as a character. In the beginning Sauron must have perceived Melkor as a being not unlike himself, thinking that Melkor's desire for lordship was equivalent to his own love of order, or at least thinking that the two aims were highly compatible. It was only as he spent more and more of his power in fixation on terrestrial domination that Melkor became the nihilistic Morgoth, evil but also crippled, desiring now only destruction in his resentment of his Creator and his kin.
I think this explains the situation: Sauron did not perceive his incompatibility with Morgoth because at first there was no incompatibility; it developed over time as Morgoth's intentions decomposed. But apparently Sauron did, in the end, come to see Morgoth as a failure, and I would argue that it makes decent sense to imagine that this was because he perceived Morgoth as having failed to uphold the only cause he thought was worthwhile in Arda: the establishment and maintenance of order. I think that in his mind there would be no difference between Morgoth's nihilism and the Valar's passivity. For a being who seemingly believed that the ends entirely justified the means, the situation must have seemed completely rational.

[Boromir88]

To go along with what Zigur brings up with how Sauron originally was drawn Melkor's rebellion because he was you could say, star struck, but Melkor's splendor and ability to implement his designs relatively quickly.

He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)~Home X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

Later, Morgoth spun downwards into nihilism, and Sauron never reached this stage of chaos, since he still had, what Tolkien calls "relics of positive purposes." I think, given enough time Sauron was following down the same path and would have become a nihilist:

In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.~The Silmarillion: The Valaquenta

I like how you break it down between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil. It sounds like two apt descriptions.

[Inziladun]

To me, the sin of Morgoth and Sauron is practically identical: each believed his version of "order" to be superior to that established By Ilúvatar through his servants, the Valar. Though Melkor merits a greater penalty for being the prime corrupter of the efforts of the Valar, Sauron's telling error was his inability/unwillingness to humble himself after the fall of Morgoth. That should have been a red flag to him that his road was a dangerous one that would lead him to ruin. Pride in the memory of his power under Morgoth filled him though, and pride led him to think he could order the world to his will despite his much greater master being proven incorrect on the same assumption.
It is my belief that anyone can make a mistake, and I don't fault Sauron so much for his initially following Morgoth. What I do criticize him for is his failure to repent when given the chance. Saruman's later fall is a result of the same arrogance and lack of humility.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Later, Morgoth spun downwards into nihilism, and Sauron never reached this stage of chaos, since he still had, what Tolkien calls "relics of positive purposes." I think, given enough time Sauron was following down the same path and would have become a nihilist

I think Third Age Sauron was at the nihilistic point. Whatever had originally guided him to try and make the world his own he had lost sight of, blinded by the prospect of simply having power and control. A world of Orcs and evil men was not his ideal: he preferred to enslave the West. It was not then enough that lesser beings did his will. They should be made to do it against their own.

[mhagain]

I'm inclined to view Sauron as being more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Evil, at least at the start, and not in the Moorcock/Balance sense but rather in the "I'm looking after my own skin here" sense.

It's definitely the case that he was quite content to sit out the end of the First Age as a boogeyman in Taur-nu-Fuin after Luthien whupped his ***, and his repentance after the War of Wrath indicates that he was prepared to switch sides according to what suited his purpose.

It's really only after the Rings were created that he went fully down the Evil path, IMO. Up until then he's more of a free agent who just happened to side with Melkor because that seemed to be where the smart money was (at least from the perspective of him meeting his goals for order/etc).

[Andsigil]

It's misguided to shoehorn Sauron and Morgoth into alignments from a roleplaying game and declare them compatible or not.

People of different temperaments have followed each other loyally through all ages of history.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

More importantly, however, is that phrase "the Valar (including Melkor) having failed."
So Sauron considered Melkor to be a failure, seemingly along with or in the same way as his enemies, the Valar. In what way?

Can it be the reason of Sauron's brief repentance after the defeat of Melkor? When he found that other Valar were reluctant to take reigns in ME, could he treat that attitude as a confirmation of their failure? May be he even had a hope that taking responsibility for the affairs of ME and ordering he could deserve Eru's respect in the future?

[Nikkolas]

The Valar did nothing but fail. They brought the Firstborn to Valinor, leaving Men all alone to be brainwashed by Morgoth, they allowed most of the Noldor to leave Valinor and get themselves slaughtered, and when they finally did take action most of the greatest Elves and Men ever were already dead and what they all were trying to save was destroyed.

I do not doubt that Sauron, he who is pitiless just like Morgoth, also might even ahve seen the unchaining of Melkor as a failing.

In Sauron's Empire, he would make none of these mistakes. All things would obey his whim as he was the wisest in all Middle-earth and these stupid inferior beings should never be allowed to make their own decisions. After all, look what letting them make their own decisions in the past has led to. (also as for him being the wisest, I'm gonna guess he thought that and I'd say that, in terms of intellect and talent, he was potentially right)

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

When he found that other Valar were reluctant to take reigns in ME, could he treat that attitude as a confirmation of their failure? May be he even had a hope that taking responsibility for the affairs of ME and ordering he could deserve Eru's respect in the future?

If we imagine Sauron's worldview as being that the worthiest cause and highest moral responsibility was the implementation and maintenance of order then I agree that we could read Sauron as seeing the Valar as equivalent failures for their refusal to bring order to Middle-earth, instead in fact leaving Men to the depredations of Morgoth's scattered servants.
As for Eru's respect, however, I don't think that by this point (especially following Morgoth's defeat) Sauron was devoted to any being but himself, and any cause but his own obsession with order. I think Eru would be too abstracted and uninvolved to hold any further interest to him. He might even represent everything Sauron was opposed to, which is to say letting things take their natural course (and although he must not have realised it, still intervening, but subtly). The only inconsistency is the destruction of Númenor, but this seemed to Sauron, apparently, to be Eru's last act of dismissal towards his "failed" creation. Sauron judged all decisions, in Gandalf's words, "according to his wisdom," which is to say what he would have done in the same situation, so we shouldn't be surprised at Sauron's ability to rule Eru out of his equations, something only a mind as corrupt as his could do.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The Valar did nothing but fail. They brought the Firstborn to Valinor, leaving Men all alone to be brainwashed by Morgoth, they allowed most of the Noldor to leave Valinor and get themselves slaughtered, and when they finally did take action most of the greatest Elves and Men ever were already dead and what they all were trying to save was destroyed.

Interestingly there are responses to this in "Myths Transformed" where Professor Tolkien describes Manwë as "the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda" with the argument that "the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually beseiged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction."
I think the Valar definitely made mistakes (bringing the Eldar to Aman may have been one of them; Ulmo thought so) and as a result they were forced to compromise. The only alternative (direct action) might have risked Arda itself being destroyed.

[Nikkolas]

The most interesting and telling quote for me in the entire Silmarillion is whn Eru addressed the Ainur and Melkor specifically:
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’

I've often wondered if Morgoth or Sauron remembered or forgot this. The fact is, all the evil committed by either Melkor or Sauron through all the Ages was just part of Eru's Plan.

Morgoth at least possibly either forgot or dismissed it because his pride was boundless. For Sauron though, maybe he did remember and even dared to think what he was doing was "right" as it was permitted by Eru.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Morgoth at least possibly either forgot or dismissed it because his pride was boundless. For Sauron though, maybe he did remember and even dared to think what he was doing was "right" as it was permitted by Eru.

I don't give either Morgoth or Sauron any credit for their actions ultimately working for the will of the One. Gollum too served a noble purpose, but never with good intentions. Sauron couldn't claim any ignorance of the consequences of his deeds after watching his master brought low in the War of Wrath. The fact that he contemplated repentance at that point clearly indicates an understanding of his own culpability in Morgoth's evil. But he turned his back on the chance, and decided to take the same road as Morgoth.

[Erestor]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The most interesting and telling quote for me in the entire Silmarillion is whn Eru addressed the Ainur and Melkor specifically:
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’

I've often wondered if Morgoth or Sauron remembered or forgot this. The fact is, all the evil committed by either Melkor or Sauron through all the Ages was just part of Eru's Plan.

Morgoth at least possibly either forgot or dismissed it because his pride was boundless. For Sauron though, maybe he did remember and even dared to think what he was doing was "right" as it was permitted by Eru.

I don’t think that Sauron would've used that knowledge in such a way. After all, he thought Eru had left Arda, and that’s why he didn’t fear his intervention. If he deluded himself to think he was doing the right thing, he wouldn’t need to fear Eru, or think that way. Also, he inherited at least some of Morgoth's hatred of Eru (according to Morgoth's Ring). I rather think he would distance himself from such views. Even when he acted like an emissary from the Valar in Eregion to help the Elves to forge the Rings, he wouldn't do it in such ways, but would really appear as a good being.

I think that view would be more like Gandalf’s, if he would become Ring-Lord. From Letter 246.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.'

That is, if he still had all his knowledge from before his embodiment. I’ve always wondered about this certain passage from UT, which gives me the impression they had lost part of their knowledge.

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.

[Alfirin]

I've always sort of assumed that Galadriel would also have become the "other type" (Gandalf's) of Ringlord, a being who while still objectively "good" would be terrifying because their good would be wholly unalloyed and hence, devoid of those things that come from the knowledge that we all have a little wrong in us, mercy, pity, and the ability to forgive. Not to mention the neccecary cessation of free will in any form (if you are wholly good, you can't allow the existance of evil and as long as there is free will and choice, people have the ability to choose wickedness.) Her kingdom would be one of light, but it would be the kind of light you get by staring directly into the sun, too stong to endure. She would be the LITERAL "Belle de sans merci", and as she said, all would "love her and despair" (though I suspect the "love" would not last too long, you cannot truly love that which you are terrified of.) As the old saying goes "In the mirror of perfection, all beings look wholly vile."

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I've always sort of assumed that Galadriel would also have become the "other type" (Gandalf's) of Ringlord, a being who while still objectively "good" would be terrifying because their good would be wholly unalloyed and hence, devoid of those things that come from the knowledge that we all have a little wrong in us, mercy, pity, and the ability to forgive. Not to mention the neccecary cessation of free will in any form (if you are wholly good, you can't allow the existance of evil and as long as there is free will and choice, people have the ability to choose wickedness.) Her kingdom would be one of light, but it would be the kind of light you get by staring directly into the sun, too stong to endure. She would be the LITERAL "Belle de sans merci", and as she said, all would "love her and despair" (though I suspect the "love" would not last too long, you cannot truly love that which you are terrified of.) As the old saying goes "In the mirror of perfection, all beings look wholly vile."

What an excellent distinction between an accomplished Nazi regime and a Communist one!

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

In Sauron's Empire, he would make none of these mistakes. All things would obey his whim as he was the wisest in all Middle-earth and these stupid inferior beings should never be allowed to make their own decisions. After all, look what letting them make their own decisions in the past has led to. (also as for him being the wisest, I'm gonna guess he thought that and I'd say that, in terms of intellect and talent, he was potentially right)

And this is why "these stupid inferior beings" needed Olorin's aid more than anything else. Manwe, it seems, took Valar's previous mistakes very seriously when he appointed this Maia to go to ME among other Istari.

[Nikkolas]

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

He had many lands east and south of Mordor under his sway. Whether he was their direct ruler or ruled through puppet monarchs, I'm not sure.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

It's a safe assumption that Sauron had the lands east and south of Mordor under his thumb. Though they may have had their own rulers, Sauron's will would have reigned.

x/d with Andsigil

[Sarumian]

If we are going to make a comparison between to evil (negative) powers, it make sense, I believe, to understand their opposition to the power of Eru which was the source of their own existence.

It seems, Melkor was given powers to operate with any kind of substance and was able to shape it into virtually anything (his only predicament was light, which is not a substance - Melkor could shut it out or steal it but could not call it into being out of nothing). A bigger gap between Melkor and Eru lies in their relationship to time. Melkor, with all his powers, was a temporal (albeit an immortal) creature who apprehends the past, the present and the future roughy in a way we do. He lives in Time. For Eru, on the contrary, all moments of time are "present" simultaneously. Time exists within Eru's mind. I would roughly liken Eru to an author of a story, in which all others serve just as characters. While Hamlet was facing his challenges and choices (to be or not to be...), Shakespeare already knew how it was going to end...

The destiny of Ea was presented to Ainur as the Music, which they were able to enrich, developing the theme given by Eru; Melkor even succeeded to bring in a theme of his own, which contradicted the main one, and subsequently, caused a discord. It all finished, however, on Eru's terms: Melkor's theme was harmonised with the rest of the Music. Then Ainur were offered a chance to see the music they created embodied in a Universe (Ea) and even participate in its creation, development and demise (and what is music if not a well-temered time? ).

Now we have a string of questions:

How did Ainur, Melkor and Sauron in particular, understand the meaning of the Music?
What kind of idea of Eru did they possess?

What I mean is: did Melkor seriously think he was able to amend the providence, i. e. to re-write the future (the future, that was as present for Eru as all other moments in Time)? Or did he come to a conclusion that his theme was the destiny of Ea, that the latter should be shaped accordingly, that the final harmony means only that voices of other Ainur should yield to his tunes?

What I think is that if he ever had an intention to destroy Arda completely, he had not gained it until the very late stage of his fight. It seems, he wanted to re-shape Arda according to his plan (we don't know what it was) and struggled to remove all obstacles (including Ea's existing constitution if necessary).

I wonder what Sauron could think about the Music. I don't believe he could ever forget it as it must have made the most profound impression on his soul ever. Thus, Melkor needed to work hard to persuade Sauron that his (Melkor's) plan can bore a fruit. It is also very difficult to accept that Sauron could believe that Eru literarily abandoned Ea: Eru's nature doesn't simply allow him to abandon anything that does exist. Either Sauron had a very faulty idea of Eru or he believed that taking responsibility for Middle Earth is The Way - something that Eru would approve or at list tolerate. At least during his brief repentance, if it was a sincere move.

Finally, the situation seduces me to make one more comparison. If Tolkien is "Eru" of his universe, we, readers, resemble children of Eru (men), who live a short but bright life (reading The Hobbit or The Lord of The Rings) and then are taken to Eru to listen to his music and learn the truth about Ea that lies beyond our ordinary experience (reading Silmarillon). And I like this thought

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I wonder what Sauron could think about the Music. I don't believe he could ever forget it as it must have made the most profound impression on his soul ever. Thus, Melkor needed to work hard to persuade Sauron that his (Melkor's) plan can bore a fruit. It is also very difficult to accept that Sauron could believe that Eru literarily abandoned Ea: Eru's nature doesn't simply allow him to abandon anything that does exist. Either Sauron had a very faulty idea of Eru or he believed that taking responsibility for Middle Earth is The Way - something that Eru would approve or at list tolerate. At least during his brief repentance, if it was a sincere move.

"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more." (emphasis mine)
Sauron's impression of Eru was not based on rational thought. Rather, in his corruption, he had (so far as I read it) concocted a false understanding of Eru's mind which conveniently permitted his own schemes.
"...Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things."
"Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure."
So while Sauron participated in the Music and was aware of Eru, we must focus on that phrase: "according to his measure." Sauron was mighty among the Maiar, but not that mighty in the grand scheme. I would argue that his understanding of Eru, and of the Music, was limited (but at the same time greater than his master's). I restate again Gandalf's remark that Sauron judged all things "according to his wisdom" and from Morgoth's Ring the observation: "His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the Motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman."
Sauron probably did not see himself as "corrupt" or "evil" because he inevitably scrutinised others as if they had the same personality as himself; he saw himself as the norm. I believe this is how he could convince himself that Eru had abandoned Arda.
Did Morgoth need to "work hard to persuade Sauron"? I see no evidence of it personally. Quite the reverse, in fact. If you were as single-minded as Sauron seemingly was I think it would seem entirely rational to side with the most powerful party. He may not have understood the Music well enough to comprehend the futility of supporting Morgoth, even if he understood the Music better than Morgoth did himself. Perhaps the Music itself in its complexity contributed significantly to Sauron's obsession with order and how everything might be weaved into a single, perfect pattern. I read Sauron's greatest weakness as his perfectionism.

[Sarumian]

The fact Sauron could delude himself this way means that he had/obtained a very wrong idea of Eru. Not only Eru's motives and attitudes but of Eru's nature. He thought about Eru as if the latter was somewhat a first among Ainur, not an ultramundane spirit, having all of the universe, Ainur including, existing in his mind.

Therefore Sauron perceived the music as an outline rather than something that had decided Ea's destiny. That were the prerequisites for Sauron's delusion, esp. his idea that Eru can abandon Ea.

Well, it seems at some point Sauron decided he had a better understanding of matters than Melkor. The question is when. If it happened before Melkor's final downfall, it is unclear why than Sauron did not abandon Melkor.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The fact Sauron could delude himself this way means that he had/obtained a very wrong idea of Eru. Not only Eru's motives and attitudes but of Eru's nature. He thought about Eru as if the latter was somewhat a first among Ainur, not an ultramundane spirit, having all of the universe, Ainur including, existing in his mind.

I think the point is that Sauron assumed Eru no longer cared, not that he thought that Eru's power was in any way limited. Sauron knew Eru's power. He simply did not know his mind, but nonetheless made assumptions about it. As Professor Tolkien states in 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion', "Sauron was not a 'sincere' atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God's action in Arda)." I don't think Sauron had any doubts about what Eru could do, but he made a number of assumptions about what Eru would do, and not necessarily large ones given how uninvolved Eru apparently was.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The question is when. If it happened before Melkor's final downfall, it is unclear why than Sauron did not abandon Melkor.

I just noticed this and wanted to offer an answer while I had it in mind. There's so much discussion of Sauron on this forum I think it's enlightening to have as much material to hand as possible. To quote "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" regarding Sauron's behaviour:

"Therefore when Ëonwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."

Sauron was Morgoth's first lieutenant. That does not, however, change the fact that in the heirarchy of Morgoth's 'realm' (such as it was) everyone apart from Morgoth himself, regardless of rank, was Morgoth's slave. On the other hand, we receive no mention, I believe, of any participation on Sauron's part in the Great Battle. So I think Sauron may have been capable of abandoning Morgoth, but that he was so deeply entrenched in evil that this was only really possible at the point where it was a choice between supporting Morgoth and his own survival. Being evil and serving Morgoth (the individual) were not the same thing by the end of the First Age, which I think might go some way to explaining how Sauron persisted with Morgoth until the time came to strike out on his own. Of course, slave or not, for a being as evil as Sauron, and accustomed to a certain lifestyle, being second in command of Morgoth's realm would probably also have been preferable to indefinite ages of service to the Valar in Aman (even before the Great Battle, I mean).

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Of course, slave or not, for a being as evil as Sauron, and accustomed to a certain lifestyle, being second in command of Morgoth's realm would probably also have been preferable to indefinite ages of service to the Valar in Aman (even before the Great Battle, I mean).

I agree with you here. When I first read the first part of "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", I remembered what Satan said in John Milton's poem Paradise Lost to his followers, after their failed rebellion led them to be cast out of Heaven, and into Hell:

Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n. (Book I, lines 161-3)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I agree with you here. When I first read the first part of "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", I remembered what Satan said in John Milton's poem Paradise Lost to his followers, after their failed rebellion led them to be cast out of Heaven, and into Hell:

Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n. (Book I, lines 161-3)

The Silmarillion seems to make it clear that an aversion to penitently serving the Valar was indeed behind Sauron's failure to take advantage of the opportunity to turn his back on his past.He had had too much power and authority under Morgoth.

As an aside, could something similar be said of Denethor? He was so enamored of his position as de facto ruler of Gondor that he would not entertain the idea of relinquishing power, even to a proven, rightful king. Possibly the influence of Sauron via the Palantíri, enhanced by Denethor's own pride?

[Nikkolas]

Despite what people say about the movies, Tolkien does not seem to particularly like or care about Denethor. I know he addressed him in at least one of the letters I read and he was none too sympathetic, calling him nothing more than a petty tyrant. This is in sharp contrast to how a lot of people online seem to view him ie. as a tragic ruler manipulated by the evil Sauron.

[Nerwen]

Nikkolas, you sound rather as if you think this is some kind of internet mass delusion. . In fact I imagine most are simply going by the character as he appears in the book itself. An author's view of his own work isn't necessarily fixed, anyway.

(Btw, many of us have read Tolkien's letters too.)

[Nikkolas]

I just didn't feel particularly sory for him.He's often cited as the single greatest character screw-up of the movies by book fans but when i got to ROTK a few months ago, I didn't really care for him one way or another. He was just kind of a jerk who made a very problematic situation even more problematic through his jerkiness.

Besides, Gandalf didn't spare a word of sympathy for him either. (in contrast to Saruman)

[Zigûr]

I think that as unsympathetic as some people might find Denethor in the books, he still has a certain dignity to him. In the films he's this grubby, messy slob who's more barking mad than melodramatic in despair. To me in the books Denethor feels like a real person whereas I feel like the film depiction has him as a rather effortless caricature of an incompetent politician.
To digress slightly further for a moment, I think Denethor is actually a very impressive example of Professor Tolkien's skill as a writer. The Steward appears in what, three chapters? Yet in my opinion at least, by the time he is proclaiming the doom of the West from his pyre I feel as if we have known him for years. Critics who are skeptical of Professor Tolkien's ability with complex characterisation should look no further than Denethor.

Anyway, to return to what Inzil said, let us consider again Professor Tolkien's remarks in Letter 183: "Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure... It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked."
Denethor was conservative and politically minded, concerned with the maintenance of the status quo. Professor Tolkien observes that his motives were the main issue. He opposed Sauron not because it was a moral imperative to do so (and metaphysically speaking it was as Sauron was evil's representative in the Third Age) but because he feared change.
"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life... and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil."
Sauron, really, desired the same end. A realm built on the One Ring would last as long as the Ring lasted, in perpetual stasis, stale and stagnant. After Morgoth's defeat, Sauron ultimately could not resist the urge to attempt the same thing on an arguably lesser scale with himself as supreme ruler. Perhaps he could manipulate Denethor so well because they were alike in this way. When Denethor beheld the black sails of Umbar in the Anor-Stone, his chiefest despair was the end of Gondor and, thus, change. After his suicide, Gandalf told his servants: "so pass also the days of Gondor that you have known; for good or evil they are ended."
Like Sauron, Denethor hated change. The Noldor had suffered the same delusion in the Second Age. One of the prevailing virtues in my view of Gandalf is that he understands one of Professor Tolkien's most significant themes: change is inevitable, but it does not have to be bad.

[Nikkolas]

What about Saruman? Is he not said to be merely emulating Sauron, even if it's unconscious, and he is most certainly a representative of change. His initial defining character moment is that speech to tempt Gandalf where goes on at length about how time are changing and the old ways and allies must be abandoned. There's also his representing rampant, unrestrained industrialization.

[Zigûr]

I agree. Saruman is definitely the 'dangerous progressive' to Denethor's 'dangerous conservative.' I think what we must remember about Saruman as an imitator of Sauron is that he had not yet gone as far on the path to corruption. Sauron had, once, been 'progressive' too: he was intent on bringing about drastic changes to the world by eliminating all of its disorder and mutability, which came to mean eliminating its propensity for change, along with free will. But once he had, to some extent, achieved that goal through the creation of the One Ring he now became obsessed with maintaining that order and enforcing it on the entirety of Middle-earth.

Sauron wanted to change the world into a shape he desired, and then keep it that way forever. Denethor just wanted the nation he had inherited to never change. Saruman desired progress to be accelerated to some preferable state, but his collapse into stagnation is itself visible as the tale reaches its conclusion. By the end of the Third Age in his bitterness and corruption all he was capable of doing was imposing the same oppressive regime on the Shire. Saruman's mistake, like Sauron's before him, was trying to bring about change ex nihilo, which ultimately left him spent and mired in stagnation.

[Sarumian]

I believe we have reached a very interesting point. Tolkien's view on technical progress somehow resembles me that of philosopher Martin Heidegger. According to Heidegger, the destiny of the West was sealed when such thinkers as Parmenides, Plato and Aristotle started seeing and describing the way things exist in nature as if they were somehow 'crafted': the nature (physis) of things appeared to them as 'techne'.

The New Age, however, goes even further. Things now appear to our mind as objects within the framework of the 'world-picture'; each thing occupies a place that perception assigns for it. Method, thus, achieves supremacy over Being.

If we observe now the nature of evil in Melkor, Sauron and Saruman, we can see differences but also a kind of succession. Morgoth exercised his power through the nature, making it fight against itself. Sauron wanted to rule with the help of craftsmanship: he aspired to create an ideal "thing" that would keep the world unchanged. Saruman wanted to rule via method that unfolds itself in machinery. Each lust is dangerous. An attempt to suppress change can be as dangerous (and hopeless) as progress in which production is going on for the sake of production itself.

The ambivalent nature of craft, skills and design (from Tolkien's point of view) is probably reflected in the fact that Alue is the most troubled Valla after Melkor.

[Nikkolas]

While we are on the topic of Saruman compared to the Dark Lords though, I was wondering if you guys agreed with my assessment of why Saruman achieved so little. I made this post in defense of Saruman when someone scoffed at me claiming he was a peer of Sauron:

Saruman was a very small and petty man in the end and that is why I sympathize with him more than Sauron or Melkor, who both fell to much greater wickedness than Saruman ever managed. It's kind of a shame he will always be seen as a "Sauron wannabe" when he is a far more fleshed out character than Sauron in terms of depth or development. He's also often made fun of simply because he never achieved much when compared to the Dark Lords he aspired to be. But therein lies the difference between Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. The Sil is all about the mightiest of the mighty and LOTR is about humility and the underdog. Saruman being a failed tyrant is crucial to the story's tone I think.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Saruman was a very small and petty man in the end and that is why I sympathize with him more than Sauron or Melkor, who both fell to much greater wickedness than Saruman ever managed. It's kind of a shame he will always be seen as a "Sauron wannabe" when he is a far more fleshed out character than Sauron in terms of depth or development. He's also often made fun of simply because he never achieved much when compared to the Dark Lords he aspired to be. But therein lies the difference between Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. The Sil is all about the mightiest of the mighty and LOTR is about humility and the underdog. Saruman being a failed tyrant is crucial to the story's tone I think.

Saruman's handicap may have had less to do with lesser ability than with his original motives for his fall.

It seems to me that while Morgoth and Sauron each had grand ideas about re-ordering the world to fit his own image of its "right" state, Saruman's turn to evil was in a meaningful way influenced by jealousy of Gandalf. Envy is a rather destructive emotion, in that the actor has a tendency to become blind to danger in the desire to spite his enemy. Saruman was subverted by Sauron perhaps the more easily because he desired Gandaf's failure, and wanted power to bring it about.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Saruman's handicap may have had less to do with lesser ability than with his original motives for his fall.

It seems to me that while Morgoth and Sauron each had grand ideas about re-ordering the world to fit his own image of its "right" state, Saruman's turn to evil was in a meaningful way influenced by jealousy of Gandalf. Envy is a rather destructive emotion, in that the actor has a tendency to become blind to danger in the desire to spite his enemy. Saruman was subverted by Sauron perhaps the more easily because he desired Gandaf's failure, and wanted power to bring it about.

Yes, envy of Gandalf is certainly a major component of Saruman's moral weakness, but another important aspect of Saruman's flawed character is his coveting of the Ring. The Ring warped him just as surely as if he were wearing it. Its possession became all-encompassing to him, even to the point of creating his own rings and risking destruction by not only betraying the Lords of the West, but Sauron as well. Even if Sauron had been victorious at the Morannon and recovered the Ring, Saruman, his treachery revealed to the Nazgul previously, would have found eternal torment in Barad-dur for his traitorous actions.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, envy of Gandalf is certainly a major component of Saruman's moral weakness, but another important aspect of Saruman's flawed character is his coveting of the Ring. The Ring warped him just as surely as if he were wearing it. Its possession became all-encompassing to him, even to the point of creating his own rings and risking destruction by not only betraying the Lords of the West, but Sauron as well. Even if Sauron had been victorious at the Morannon and recovered the Ring, Saruman, his treachery revealed to the Nazgul previously, would have found eternal torment in Barad-dur for his traitorous actions.

Oh, certainly the Ring was a large factor too in Saruman's corruption. But I wonder if his lust for it may have had its roots in the knowledge that Gandalf either knew or suspected its whereabouts. An opportunity to confound Gandalf's plans at any cost, coupled with the power the Ring would give him, could have been icing on the cake.