Ar-Pharazon - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-18-2003, 09:22 AM

After recently reading ‘The History of the Akallabeth’ in ‘HoME 12 ‘Peoples of M-E’, (a great read) I ran across a rather interesting story on Ar-Pharazon and Miriel. Apparently, J.R.R Tolkien wanted to change the whole ‘forced marriage’ angle, and in his newer version, Miriel was loved by Elentir, a newly created brother of Amandil, and she was about to marry him, when she saw Ar-Pharazon and fell in love with him. So the marriage was not forced. This essay is also an interesting view on Ar-Pharazon, as relatively little information is given about him and his personality, and it also focuses on his great friendship with Amandil.

CRRT on the emergence of this new view of Ar-Pharazon and Miriel:

“ they represent the emergence of a doubt in my fathers mind whether the marriage of Pharazon and Zimrahil (Miriel) was indeed ‘against her will’ and the sketching of a new story on the subject.

Hmmm…If only Tolkien had lived a bit longer. Then maybe have lots of the new stories, and maybe a JRR version of Doriath and the incorporation of the round world mythology into the Sil.

doug*platypus · 01-18-2003, 11:07 PM

Personally I prefer the ruthless, power-hungry Ar-Pharazôn. Not everyone has to have a good side to their nature, and I like the idea of the forced marriage for him. No need to tone it down and make it another soppy Aldarion and Erendis story (although that one is interesting in some respects). I don't think that a romance with Míriel needs to come into it. Surely the big guy was obsessed with his plans for world domination, and spent more time with Sauron than he did flirting?

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-19-2003, 08:45 AM

Ahh, but he must have been good for a while, sicne nothing is ever evil in the beggining. Also note his friendship to Amandil. I think Miriel was more attracted to his muscles, then him himself. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Galorme · 01-19-2003, 11:37 AM

He was proud, and he turned to folly, but is it ever said he was evil? He was tricked by evil, Sauron used his pride and his vanity, but I am sure he could also be good to people if he liked them.

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Galorme ]

doug*platypus · 01-20-2003, 06:04 AM

Oh, no, I don't like where this is going... chalk up one more lost in space to the black hole of Fate vs Free Will. We're doomed.

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-20-2003, 09:24 AM

Yes, Ar-Pharazon became evil, evil is evil, whether of free will or being tricked by a smart**** Maia. ar-Pharazon's downfall was his pride, itself a sin, and his hunger for more power and immortatilty, another sin, and his arrogance, yet another sin. Melkor is problably the only person who hasn't turned evil through sheer awe or trickery, Sauron and the Balrogs were awe-strucked by Morgoth, Ulfang was tricked by Morgoth and Wormtoungue was fooled by Saruman. Ar-Pharazon, due to his arrogance, pride etc, allowed himself to be deluded by Sauron.

Galorme · 01-20-2003, 09:43 AM

ok ok if you define proud and greedy as evil, but the point is he was not evil for the sake of evil as such. He was not a totally corrupted character, and because of this he could still have enough good in him to be good to the woman he loved, so much so she loved him in return. This was all I meant nothing to do with Fate vs Free Will.

On the subject of evil, has there been a discussion on whether or not gollum had redeemed himself oh his evil when he died or not?

doug*platypus · 01-21-2003, 04:26 AM

Interesting point about Sauron corrupting Ar-Pharazôn. While he was definitely imious right from the start, Ar-Pharazôn was not foolish enough to attack the Undying Lands until Sauron whispered sweet nothings into his ear. So, Ar-Pharazôn may not have been evil from the start, but he was proud, arrogant and perhaps a little naive. Prone to evil, you might say, moreso than someone like Aragorn would have been. But in this case it definitely took two to tango - Ar-Pharazôn with his position of power and his pride, and Sauron with his words and manipulations. Similar in that respect to the Théoden/Wormtongue episode, although of course the outcomes were quite different.

Regarding Gollum, I have recently been posting on this thread, and I'm sure there are many others out there. The search engine is a wonderful thing.

01-18-2003, 09:22 AM	#1
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Ar-Pharazon After recently reading ‘The History of the Akallabeth’ in ‘HoME 12 ‘Peoples of M-E’, (a great read) I ran across a rather interesting story on Ar-Pharazon and Miriel. Apparently, J.R.R Tolkien wanted to change the whole ‘forced marriage’ angle, and in his newer version, Miriel was loved by Elentir, a newly created brother of Amandil, and she was about to marry him, when she saw Ar-Pharazon and fell in love with him. So the marriage was not forced. This essay is also an interesting view on Ar-Pharazon, as relatively little information is given about him and his personality, and it also focuses on his great friendship with Amandil. CRRT on the emergence of this new view of Ar-Pharazon and Miriel: “ they represent the emergence of a doubt in my fathers mind whether the marriage of Pharazon and Zimrahil (Miriel) was indeed ‘against her will’ and the sketching of a new story on the subject. Hmmm…If only Tolkien had lived a bit longer. Then maybe have lots of the new stories, and maybe a JRR version of Doriath and the incorporation of the round world mythology into the Sil. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-18-2003, 11:07 PM	#2
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	Personally I prefer the ruthless, power-hungry Ar-Pharazôn. Not everyone has to have a good side to their nature, and I like the idea of the forced marriage for him. No need to tone it down and make it another soppy Aldarion and Erendis story (although that one is interesting in some respects). I don't think that a romance with Míriel needs to come into it. Surely the big guy was obsessed with his plans for world domination, and spent more time with Sauron than he did flirting? __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-19-2003, 08:45 AM	#3
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Ahh, but he must have been good for a while, sicne nothing is ever evil in the beggining. Also note his friendship to Amandil. I think Miriel was more attracted to his muscles, then him himself. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-19-2003, 11:37 AM	#4
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	He was proud, and he turned to folly, but is it ever said he was evil? He was tricked by evil, Sauron used his pride and his vanity, but I am sure he could also be good to people if he liked them. [ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Galorme ] __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

01-20-2003, 06:04 AM	#5
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	Oh, no, I don't like where this is going... chalk up one more lost in space to the black hole of Fate vs Free Will. We're doomed. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-20-2003, 09:24 AM	#6
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Yes, Ar-Pharazon became evil, evil is evil, whether of free will or being tricked by a smart**** Maia. ar-Pharazon's downfall was his pride, itself a sin, and his hunger for more power and immortatilty, another sin, and his arrogance, yet another sin. Melkor is problably the only person who hasn't turned evil through sheer awe or trickery, Sauron and the Balrogs were awe-strucked by Morgoth, Ulfang was tricked by Morgoth and Wormtoungue was fooled by Saruman. Ar-Pharazon, due to his arrogance, pride etc, allowed himself to be deluded by Sauron. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-20-2003, 09:43 AM	#7
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	ok ok if you define proud and greedy as evil, but the point is he was not evil for the sake of evil as such. He was not a totally corrupted character, and because of this he could still have enough good in him to be good to the woman he loved, so much so she loved him in return. This was all I meant nothing to do with Fate vs Free Will. On the subject of evil, has there been a discussion on whether or not gollum had redeemed himself oh his evil when he died or not? __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

01-21-2003, 04:26 AM	#8
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	Interesting point about Sauron corrupting Ar-Pharazôn. While he was definitely imious right from the start, Ar-Pharazôn was not foolish enough to attack the Undying Lands until Sauron whispered sweet nothings into his ear. So, Ar-Pharazôn may not have been evil from the start, but he was proud, arrogant and perhaps a little naive. Prone to evil, you might say, moreso than someone like Aragorn would have been. But in this case it definitely took two to tango - Ar-Pharazôn with his position of power and his pride, and Sauron with his words and manipulations. Similar in that respect to the Théoden/Wormtongue episode, although of course the outcomes were quite different. Regarding Gollum, I have recently been posting on this thread, and I'm sure there are many others out there. The search engine is a wonderful thing. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.