Where's Arwen's mother? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legolas'Beloved · 01-09-2003, 10:17 PM

It's basically as simple as that. Where is her mother? In the book, it says,

"But her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon erantry: for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs."

So, is this saying that she was killed by the orcs? And why was she killed by them? Also, another question about elves: If they are immortal, what happens when they get stabbed? Does the damage just heal or do they die and then come back to life? But, it seems like I remember reading something somewhere about them going to a place and wandering around for a little while then coming back to this world. Was I just dreaming or do they go to like a wandering place? And one more thing: Does anyone know if Legolas is immortal or mortal. And to clarify something: When Arwen gives Aragorn her charm, is her immortality in the neckalce or was it basically like a promise ring thing? Ok, so, I think that's all! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Konarmi · 01-09-2003, 11:34 PM

Arwen's mom, +
Queen Celebrian,
I can't find anythin in my Encyclopedia.

Kalimac · 01-09-2003, 11:40 PM

OK, to address these in reverse order.

1) The pendant was an invention of the movie, and while it was a nice symbol of Arwen giving Aragorn her heart, there's no suggestion either there or in Tolkien that immortality was or ever could be contained in an object. It's a token - think of a knight's lady giving him her kerchief before he rides off to the wars.

2) Legolas is an Elf. All Elves are immortal (even those rare exceptions like Luthien Tinuviel and Arwen who give it up later on are still born immortal). Therefore Legolas is immortal.

3) Arwen's mother is spoken of in the appendices and I *think* in Unfinished Tales (sorry, I know I've read about her somewhere, just can't remember the name of the source). She was waylaid by Orcs while traveling between Rivendell and Lothlorien and was "tormented" - details are not specified. She survived, but was so badly hurt that she found it necessary to take ship to the Undying Lands a year later to be fully healed, thereby leaving Elrond with the twins and Arwen to take care of. The impression left is that if she had not been attacked, Celebrian would not have left so early. But she is alive.

Legolas'Beloved · 01-09-2003, 11:43 PM

Ok, so, in the Two Towers, Haldir dies. Since he is an elf does this mean he is really dead or will he be back in The Return of the King?

Nurumaiel · 01-09-2003, 11:53 PM

Wait..... Arwen did have the pendant, did she not? I thought she gave it to Frodo at the end of ROTK....

01-10-2003, 12:02 AM

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
I thought Haldir is an immortal...how come he died in the the two towers? Will he come back to life?

Deathwail · 01-10-2003, 01:44 AM

When Elves die they go to halls of Mandos in Valinor where they may return in time ( Silmarillion page 42 ).So while they do return it does not sound like they are reborn right away so as in time as it means to humans they might not return for quite a while.Anyone else able to add more to this?

Susan Delgado · 01-10-2003, 01:55 AM

Except in very special and limited cases, they do not return to Middle-earth. After they leave the Halls of Mandos, they stay in Valinor.

Elves are immortal in all but two cases: they can die of injuries, and they can die of a broken heart. Basically, they aren't immortal the way the Greek Gods are immortal, but they are immune to age and sickness.

[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

Deathwail · 01-10-2003, 02:40 AM

Hehe so like a Balrog you wanna kill a Elf you should toss him off a high moutain [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Eruhen · 01-10-2003, 10:43 AM

Or slay him in battle or stab him in the back or any other way that a man can be violently killed.

When an Elda dies, his feä (spirit) goes to the Halls of Mandos in the west of Valinor. There they wander the halls and ponder the sins of their life until the Dagor Dagrath (Last Battle) comes or (very unlikely, since Tolkien eventually discarded this notion) is sent back to be born again in one of their descendents.

Also, the whole thing about Haldir and his friends showing up at Helm's Deep is never in the book. In fact, in the book, there are only three non-humans at Helm's Deep: Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf. Also, the real saviors of Helm's Deep are not Eomer and his company; it is Erkenbrand and the men that were guarding the Fords of Isen. Also, the Ents show up at the end and scare the Orcs, which makes it all the easier for the Rohirrim to rout them.

Sorry about all that. I'm just venting my anguish about the movie and waiting for the Special Edition of TTT! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

LePetitChoux · 01-10-2003, 11:41 AM

Except that it isn't the Ents. It is the Huorns.

01-10-2003, 01:53 PM

I wish i still had my TT book. I lost it on the beach. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

zacattack · 01-10-2003, 06:16 PM

Ok to settle this "Immortal" thing,Elves can't die of Old Age or Sickness but they can be taken into the care of Mando if their bodies are "broken" They will always return but in a different body,the exception to this is Glorfindel

Mandos · 01-10-2003, 06:26 PM

Also, the exeption of Feanor. In the Silamarillion I believe that it states that his likeness will never be seen again.So he is one of the Eldar who will not return it seems from the Halls of Awaiting governed by Mandos. Though this is most likely a result of the kinslaying that Feanor helped come about, and the Doom of the Noldor foretold by Mandos or the Herald of Manwe.

Silmarien · 01-13-2003, 01:38 AM

yes Arwen gives Frodo her pendant in the RoTK he holds it when his wound hurts or It's near the time when the ring was destroyed it seems to bring him comfort.

The movies are great but why did PJ have to change so much I sort of understand having to shorten it but why change anything else. Isn't it exciting enough?(sorry but heavy sarcasm.

Aeryn Evenstar · 01-14-2003, 09:02 PM

So Elves do come back if they die but in a different body? Right...like reincarnation? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Aragost · 01-14-2003, 09:36 PM

Peter Jackson Probably changed some things so the storyline would be a litte easier to follow, but he should not have brought elves to Helm's Deep, he should have brought the Huorns.

01-09-2003, 10:17 PM	#1
Legolas'Beloved Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 13	Where's Arwen's mother? It's basically as simple as that. Where is her mother? In the book, it says, "But her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon erantry: for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs." So, is this saying that she was killed by the orcs? And why was she killed by them? Also, another question about elves: If they are immortal, what happens when they get stabbed? Does the damage just heal or do they die and then come back to life? But, it seems like I remember reading something somewhere about them going to a place and wandering around for a little while then coming back to this world. Was I just dreaming or do they go to like a wandering place? And one more thing: Does anyone know if Legolas is immortal or mortal. And to clarify something: When Arwen gives Aragorn her charm, is her immortality in the neckalce or was it basically like a promise ring thing? Ok, so, I think that's all! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ Your dwarf breaths so loud we could have shot him in the dark.-- Haldir There's a foul voice on the air.--Legolas Elves RULE!!--Me

01-09-2003, 11:34 PM	#2
Konarmi Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 21	Arwen's mom, + Queen Celebrian, I can't find anythin in my Encyclopedia. __________________ .:Welcome to thelordoftherings.ca:.

01-09-2003, 11:40 PM	#3
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	OK, to address these in reverse order. 1) The pendant was an invention of the movie, and while it was a nice symbol of Arwen giving Aragorn her heart, there's no suggestion either there or in Tolkien that immortality was or ever could be contained in an object. It's a token - think of a knight's lady giving him her kerchief before he rides off to the wars. 2) Legolas is an Elf. All Elves are immortal (even those rare exceptions like Luthien Tinuviel and Arwen who give it up later on are still born immortal). Therefore Legolas is immortal. 3) Arwen's mother is spoken of in the appendices and I think in Unfinished Tales (sorry, I know I've read about her somewhere, just can't remember the name of the source). She was waylaid by Orcs while traveling between Rivendell and Lothlorien and was "tormented" - details are not specified. She survived, but was so badly hurt that she found it necessary to take ship to the Undying Lands a year later to be fully healed, thereby leaving Elrond with the twins and Arwen to take care of. The impression left is that if she had not been attacked, Celebrian would not have left so early. But she is alive. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

01-09-2003, 11:43 PM	#4
Legolas'Beloved Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 13	Ok, so, in the Two Towers, Haldir dies. Since he is an elf does this mean he is really dead or will he be back in The Return of the King? __________________ Your dwarf breaths so loud we could have shot him in the dark.-- Haldir There's a foul voice on the air.--Legolas Elves RULE!!--Me

01-09-2003, 11:53 PM	#5
Nurumaiel Vice of Twilight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on a mountain Posts: 1,139	Wait..... Arwen did have the pendant, did she not? I thought she gave it to Frodo at the end of ROTK.... __________________ In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand in every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.

01-10-2003, 12:02 AM	#6
t0MAt0 Guest Posts: n/a	[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] I thought Haldir is an immortal...how come he died in the the two towers? Will he come back to life?

01-10-2003, 01:44 AM	#7
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	When Elves die they go to halls of Mandos in Valinor where they may return in time ( Silmarillion page 42 ).So while they do return it does not sound like they are reborn right away so as in time as it means to humans they might not return for quite a while.Anyone else able to add more to this? __________________ He who arises in Might.

01-10-2003, 01:55 AM	#8
Susan Delgado The Perished Flame Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: behind my eyes Posts: 1,096	Except in very special and limited cases, they do not return to Middle-earth. After they leave the Halls of Mandos, they stay in Valinor. Elves are immortal in all but two cases: they can die of injuries, and they can die of a broken heart. Basically, they aren't immortal the way the Greek Gods are immortal, but they are immune to age and sickness. [ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ] __________________ "Man as a whole, Man pitted against the universe, have we seen him at all 'til we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?"

01-10-2003, 02:40 AM	#9
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	Hehe so like a Balrog you wanna kill a Elf you should toss him off a high moutain [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

01-10-2003, 10:43 AM	#10
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	Or slay him in battle or stab him in the back or any other way that a man can be violently killed. When an Elda dies, his feä (spirit) goes to the Halls of Mandos in the west of Valinor. There they wander the halls and ponder the sins of their life until the Dagor Dagrath (Last Battle) comes or (very unlikely, since Tolkien eventually discarded this notion) is sent back to be born again in one of their descendents. Also, the whole thing about Haldir and his friends showing up at Helm's Deep is never in the book. In fact, in the book, there are only three non-humans at Helm's Deep: Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf. Also, the real saviors of Helm's Deep are not Eomer and his company; it is Erkenbrand and the men that were guarding the Fords of Isen. Also, the Ents show up at the end and scare the Orcs, which makes it all the easier for the Rohirrim to rout them. Sorry about all that. I'm just venting my anguish about the movie and waiting for the Special Edition of TTT! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

01-10-2003, 11:41 AM	#11
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 721	Except that it isn't the Ents. It is the Huorns. __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

01-10-2003, 01:53 PM	#12
Etharius Guest Posts: n/a	I wish i still had my TT book. I lost it on the beach. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

01-10-2003, 06:16 PM	#13
zacattack Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Angband Posts: 70	Ok to settle this "Immortal" thing,Elves can't die of Old Age or Sickness but they can be taken into the care of Mando if their bodies are "broken" They will always return but in a different body,the exception to this is Glorfindel __________________ "The dwarf breathes so loud we could have shot him in the dark "What an excellent spot I choose"-Gimli "Would you like me to describe it to you or just fetch for a box"-Legolas

01-10-2003, 06:26 PM	#14
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	Also, the exeption of Feanor. In the Silamarillion I believe that it states that his likeness will never be seen again.So he is one of the Eldar who will not return it seems from the Halls of Awaiting governed by Mandos. Though this is most likely a result of the kinslaying that Feanor helped come about, and the Doom of the Noldor foretold by Mandos or the Herald of Manwe. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-13-2003, 01:38 AM	#15
Silmarien Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Lost but Found Posts: 207	yes Arwen gives Frodo her pendant in the RoTK he holds it when his wound hurts or It's near the time when the ring was destroyed it seems to bring him comfort. The movies are great but why did PJ have to change so much I sort of understand having to shorten it but why change anything else. Isn't it exciting enough?(sorry but heavy sarcasm. __________________ Though here at journeys end I lie in dakness buried deep, beyond all towers strong and high beyond all mountains steep, above all shadows rides the Sun and Stars forever dwell:I will not say the Day is done nor bid the Stars farewell!

01-14-2003, 09:02 PM	#16
Aeryn Evenstar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 14	So Elves do come back if they die but in a different body? Right...like reincarnation? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

01-14-2003, 09:36 PM	#17
Aragost Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arthedain Posts: 137	Peter Jackson Probably changed some things so the storyline would be a litte easier to follow, but he should not have brought elves to Helm's Deep, he should have brought the Huorns. __________________ Where there's a whip there's a will