Arwen and Aragorn? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Orual · 11-27-2002, 10:23 PM

A friend of mine and I were discussing Arwen this evening. More specifically, why Aragorn fell for her. My friend felt that she was a limp character, with very little "spark." I said that she simply didn't have that much time in the book, and he pointed out that Tolkien could've given her more time. I agreed, but said that there was no opportunity. He asked then, why didn't she go and fight? I cringed and said that that was Eowyn's role, not Arwen's. She was, y'know, the Elven--at this point I restrained myself from saying "princess" and settled on something stupid like "woman." He gave me a look, and I told him that perhaps it was Elrond being over-protective, and her obedience.

I also said that perhaps Tolkien was trying to parallel Aragorn with Beren. He argued that if that was true, wouldn't Arwen have been more like Luthien? More Xena-like, as my LotR circle likes to say? More warrior princess? I had no answer. Have any of you? This is an interesting subject, and I was wondering if y'all had any thoughts on it.

~*~Orual~*~

Kalimac · 11-28-2002, 01:45 AM

It's a bit late so this will probably be slightly muddled. I agree that Arwen is a bit of a cipher in LOTR proper but the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen says a lot about her by implication.

Comparing her and Aragorn with Beren and Luthien isn't off at all; I think what your friend is doing is imagining that for someone to have "spark" (assuming that means an interesting and strong character) they have to be very physically active. It's true that these days, "strong women" in books and movies tend to be Xena-like; martial-arts or swordsmanship goddesses who also tend to be a bit lippy. Eowyn is very, VERY distantly related to this image, in the sense that she's a shield-maiden, and more interested in physical, fairly masculine pursuits, as well as being openly stubborn (resisting Aragorn's instructions to stay behind, complaining about it, etc - and she was certainly within her rights to do so, so don't think I'm knocking this angle too much). Luthien is also vaguely related to this image, in the sense that she goes out and takes action on her own.

Arwen is a different sort of person; like a lot of women (and men) physical action is not her metier. She doesn't slob around all day, but physical activity/warfare is not an end in itself for her. Who knows why this is - maybe she's just not inclined, maybe her father and elder brothers were very protective (especially considering what happened to her mother). Her strength is in patience, and if your friend thinks that this means she's weak or without spark, ask him how long he could spend waiting for something which he wanted but which he knew he might not receive - WITHOUT breaking down or trying to make a grab for the thing before it was the right time. Arwen loves Aragorn, but for a long time she's in serious doubt as to whether they'll ever be able to act on this; Elrond's stipulation that they could marry when Aragorn regained his kingdom must have seemed about as likely to her as Beren succeeding in getting a Silmaril must have seemed to Luthien. She doesn't want to hurt either her father or Aragorn, and the only way to avoid completely crushing one or the other is to wait in a sort of suspended animation until the condition is fulfilled or until Aragorn dies, one or the other.

Why doesn't she help him go out and regain his kingdom? Well, what on earth could she do? She's only one Elf, and besides, like Beren and the Silmaril, there's a strong presumption that this is something he has to do on his own. Aragorn is probably much happier - and more strengthened - by knowing that Arwen is waiting for him to the end than by knowing that she has broken faith with her father to run off with him before the time was right. (Not to mention the whole immortality factor - she had to have guts to give that up, especially after having had all those years to ponder the consequences).

Hope this made some sort of sense (I guess this was kind of long after all [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ). BTW, Luthien isn't quite the right parallel in one way - Elrond was vastly superior to Thingol, from what I can remember - he deserved allegiance from his daughter.

[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

Lostgaeriel · 11-28-2002, 02:08 AM

Perhaps by patiently waiting for Aragorn to 'earn the sceptre', she shows her faith in him being able to fulfill his fate. (Estel is Hope in the sense of Faith or Trust. For more on that see Hope and Hopelessness.) The Standard she made for him is evidence of this estel. Her faith may be a greater support to him than going with him as a helpmate. Besides, while she is in Rivendell, he need not worry about her safety while he fights the War of the Ring; he can concentrate on his task.

Further, by 'staying home' she negates the possiblity of Elrond claiming that Aragorn did not earn his crown because Arwen helped him - he didn't do it on his own. (Not that I know how she could have helped by going with him.)

[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

Bill Ferny · 11-29-2002, 09:57 AM

Quote:

He argued that if that was true, wouldn't Arwen have been more like Luthien? More Xena-like, as my LotR circle likes to say?

I choked on my apple at the thought of Lúthian being like Xena.

Orual · 11-29-2002, 11:29 AM

Well, I think what my friend was getting at was that he didn't find Arwen very, I don't know how to say this, motivated? I brought up the same points later on that you did, Kalimac, but he argued "I know, but we're talking about the FATE OF THE WORLD. The war was more important than what her father wanted her to do." He really respects Eowyn for doing that--going into battle against Theoden's wishes--but I see it differently. Granted, Eowyn going into battle turned out to be for the best, but nonetheless she broke Theoden's trust and left the people that she had promised to lead while their king was at war. I respect Arwen more for her patience and obedience, not to mention her unconditional love for Aragorn. I think that a lot of people see Arwen as a weak character because of that love; they say "oh, she's willing to give up her immortality for this man, she must also be willing to submit herself to him" or whatever. I don't know what their reasoning is, but I've heard it argued. (Not well, but c'est la vie.) I don't see it that way at all.

LoL, Bill! Hope it wasn't too big a chunk of apple! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Yeah, I know Xena's not exactly the perfect parallel for Luthien, but she's the best-known female warrior-type that we could think of...

~*~Orual~*~

Kiara · 11-29-2002, 03:06 PM

Can you imagine the time Aragorn would have trying to gain the kingdom if he had the worry of Arwen's presence on his mind? I can just picture my husband going off to war and me deciding to go as well: everytime something dangerous happened, he would get whip-lash trying to make sure I was safe, and he just one soldier in the fight.

Now if Arwen, the future queen, were going to be present in the war that her future king was to wage (to lead!) for his kingdom, she would be doing much more harm than support. Come on (to those who think her weak), is it not beautiful and awesome anymore for a woman to "stay at home" and be there, safe, to receive her hero after the battle is won?

Don't compare Eowyn to Arwen, they are just not on the same level (elven majesty submitted to human mortality/human royalty rebelling and [excuse my harsh criticism] grasping at roles she was not meant to have).

(Sadly, were I to compare myself to these women, I am more like the one I condemn and wish to be the one I exalt).

Kalimac · 11-29-2002, 11:01 PM

Orual, hmmm...I think he's compressing things a little bit; the only answer I can think of to his first statement is "What war?" Aragorn fell in love with Arwen approximately eighteen years before Frodo was born; the Ring at that point was hidden in the Shire and being used solely to hide from fearsome threats like the Sackville-Bagginses (God, I love that name [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). There were more minor battles and skirmishes going on, of course, but no enormous "Middle-Earth In Peril" War of the Ring going on. The Necromancer had been driven out of Dol Guldur not too long before; as far as ME was concerned, it may have looked like the beginning of a rather hopeful time. Aragorn spent most of that time as a Ranger, fighting with the Rohirrim, etc, preparing for the day when he would reclaim his throne. It's hard to see how Arwen could have helped with this - it's his throne, not hers - think of it as being rather like an intense course of study; she could be as encouraging as she liked, but in the end Aragorn and Aragorn alone was the one who had to succeeded or fail in his ventures (or his exams, to continue the simile).

As for why she didn't suddenly gird herself with a sword when the War of the Ring came along - she probably saw it (among other things) as the crisis point of Aragorn's solitary quest; this was his hour, and it wouldn't be so much that he wouldn't want her to help as that she couldn't, simply by the fact that she wasn't him and he had to stand or fall on his own merits. Besides, as has been pointed out, what could she DO exactly? Inspire him? She did that ably enough by being in his memory - and probably moreso for the fact that he was able to hold the idea of her as something wonderful to return to and to live for, rather than someone who had to be feared for and guarded every second.

Lastly - well, it's true that she could have done the same deed that thousands of girls in folksongs have done and disguised herself to accompany him, like Eowyn. No good. Apart from the fact that she would be breaking faith with her father, and all the previous problems with Aragorn fearing for her etc., what if she got killed, or he did? In the first case, it would be a Pyrrhic victory, since Aragorn makes it clear in ROTK that he'll marry Arwen or nobody (and if she's not available, there will be no heirs). In the second, she would have lost both her husband and her immortality, gotten the worst of both worlds. It's hard to imagine Arwen going off like that *without* marrying him, or indeed of his allowing her to go with him in that situation without marrying her. But it would be too soon, and the consequences would probably have been horrendous.

11-27-2002, 10:23 PM	#1
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 901	Arwen and Aragorn? A friend of mine and I were discussing Arwen this evening. More specifically, why Aragorn fell for her. My friend felt that she was a limp character, with very little "spark." I said that she simply didn't have that much time in the book, and he pointed out that Tolkien could've given her more time. I agreed, but said that there was no opportunity. He asked then, why didn't she go and fight? I cringed and said that that was Eowyn's role, not Arwen's. She was, y'know, the Elven--at this point I restrained myself from saying "princess" and settled on something stupid like "woman." He gave me a look, and I told him that perhaps it was Elrond being over-protective, and her obedience. I also said that perhaps Tolkien was trying to parallel Aragorn with Beren. He argued that if that was true, wouldn't Arwen have been more like Luthien? More Xena-like, as my LotR circle likes to say? More warrior princess? I had no answer. Have any of you? This is an interesting subject, and I was wondering if y'all had any thoughts on it. ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-28-2002, 01:45 AM	#2
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	It's a bit late so this will probably be slightly muddled. I agree that Arwen is a bit of a cipher in LOTR proper but the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen says a lot about her by implication. Comparing her and Aragorn with Beren and Luthien isn't off at all; I think what your friend is doing is imagining that for someone to have "spark" (assuming that means an interesting and strong character) they have to be very physically active. It's true that these days, "strong women" in books and movies tend to be Xena-like; martial-arts or swordsmanship goddesses who also tend to be a bit lippy. Eowyn is very, VERY distantly related to this image, in the sense that she's a shield-maiden, and more interested in physical, fairly masculine pursuits, as well as being openly stubborn (resisting Aragorn's instructions to stay behind, complaining about it, etc - and she was certainly within her rights to do so, so don't think I'm knocking this angle too much). Luthien is also vaguely related to this image, in the sense that she goes out and takes action on her own. Arwen is a different sort of person; like a lot of women (and men) physical action is not her metier. She doesn't slob around all day, but physical activity/warfare is not an end in itself for her. Who knows why this is - maybe she's just not inclined, maybe her father and elder brothers were very protective (especially considering what happened to her mother). Her strength is in patience, and if your friend thinks that this means she's weak or without spark, ask him how long he could spend waiting for something which he wanted but which he knew he might not receive - WITHOUT breaking down or trying to make a grab for the thing before it was the right time. Arwen loves Aragorn, but for a long time she's in serious doubt as to whether they'll ever be able to act on this; Elrond's stipulation that they could marry when Aragorn regained his kingdom must have seemed about as likely to her as Beren succeeding in getting a Silmaril must have seemed to Luthien. She doesn't want to hurt either her father or Aragorn, and the only way to avoid completely crushing one or the other is to wait in a sort of suspended animation until the condition is fulfilled or until Aragorn dies, one or the other. Why doesn't she help him go out and regain his kingdom? Well, what on earth could she do? She's only one Elf, and besides, like Beren and the Silmaril, there's a strong presumption that this is something he has to do on his own. Aragorn is probably much happier - and more strengthened - by knowing that Arwen is waiting for him to the end than by knowing that she has broken faith with her father to run off with him before the time was right. (Not to mention the whole immortality factor - she had to have guts to give that up, especially after having had all those years to ponder the consequences). Hope this made some sort of sense (I guess this was kind of long after all [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ). BTW, Luthien isn't quite the right parallel in one way - Elrond was vastly superior to Thingol, from what I can remember - he deserved allegiance from his daughter. [ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-28-2002, 02:08 AM	#3
Lostgaeriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Toronto the Good Posts: 479	Perhaps by patiently waiting for Aragorn to 'earn the sceptre', she shows her faith in him being able to fulfill his fate. (Estel is Hope in the sense of Faith or Trust. For more on that see Hope and Hopelessness.) The Standard she made for him is evidence of this estel. Her faith may be a greater support to him than going with him as a helpmate. Besides, while she is in Rivendell, he need not worry about her safety while he fights the War of the Ring; he can concentrate on his task. Further, by 'staying home' she negates the possiblity of Elrond claiming that Aragorn did not earn his crown because Arwen helped him - he didn't do it on his own. (Not that I know how she could have helped by going with him.) [ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ] __________________ Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting.

11-29-2002, 11:29 AM	#5
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 901	Well, I think what my friend was getting at was that he didn't find Arwen very, I don't know how to say this, motivated? I brought up the same points later on that you did, Kalimac, but he argued "I know, but we're talking about the FATE OF THE WORLD. The war was more important than what her father wanted her to do." He really respects Eowyn for doing that--going into battle against Theoden's wishes--but I see it differently. Granted, Eowyn going into battle turned out to be for the best, but nonetheless she broke Theoden's trust and left the people that she had promised to lead while their king was at war. I respect Arwen more for her patience and obedience, not to mention her unconditional love for Aragorn. I think that a lot of people see Arwen as a weak character because of that love; they say "oh, she's willing to give up her immortality for this man, she must also be willing to submit herself to him" or whatever. I don't know what their reasoning is, but I've heard it argued. (Not well, but c'est la vie.) I don't see it that way at all. LoL, Bill! Hope it wasn't too big a chunk of apple! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Yeah, I know Xena's not exactly the perfect parallel for Luthien, but she's the best-known female warrior-type that we could think of... ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-29-2002, 03:06 PM	#6
Kiara Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: wish 'twere Ireland Posts: 50	Can you imagine the time Aragorn would have trying to gain the kingdom if he had the worry of Arwen's presence on his mind? I can just picture my husband going off to war and me deciding to go as well: everytime something dangerous happened, he would get whip-lash trying to make sure I was safe, and he just one soldier in the fight. Now if Arwen, the future queen, were going to be present in the war that her future king was to wage (to lead!) for his kingdom, she would be doing much more harm than support. Come on (to those who think her weak), is it not beautiful and awesome anymore for a woman to "stay at home" and be there, safe, to receive her hero after the battle is won? Don't compare Eowyn to Arwen, they are just not on the same level (elven majesty submitted to human mortality/human royalty rebelling and [excuse my harsh criticism] grasping at roles she was not meant to have). (Sadly, were I to compare myself to these women, I am more like the one I condemn and wish to be the one I exalt). __________________ "What if you slept, and what if in your sleep you dreamed, and what if, in your dream, you went to paradise and there plucked a beautiful flower...and what if when you awoke, you held that flower in your hand? Ah, what then?"

11-29-2002, 11:01 PM	#7
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Orual, hmmm...I think he's compressing things a little bit; the only answer I can think of to his first statement is "What war?" Aragorn fell in love with Arwen approximately eighteen years before Frodo was born; the Ring at that point was hidden in the Shire and being used solely to hide from fearsome threats like the Sackville-Bagginses (God, I love that name [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). There were more minor battles and skirmishes going on, of course, but no enormous "Middle-Earth In Peril" War of the Ring going on. The Necromancer had been driven out of Dol Guldur not too long before; as far as ME was concerned, it may have looked like the beginning of a rather hopeful time. Aragorn spent most of that time as a Ranger, fighting with the Rohirrim, etc, preparing for the day when he would reclaim his throne. It's hard to see how Arwen could have helped with this - it's his throne, not hers - think of it as being rather like an intense course of study; she could be as encouraging as she liked, but in the end Aragorn and Aragorn alone was the one who had to succeeded or fail in his ventures (or his exams, to continue the simile). As for why she didn't suddenly gird herself with a sword when the War of the Ring came along - she probably saw it (among other things) as the crisis point of Aragorn's solitary quest; this was his hour, and it wouldn't be so much that he wouldn't want her to help as that she couldn't, simply by the fact that she wasn't him and he had to stand or fall on his own merits. Besides, as has been pointed out, what could she DO exactly? Inspire him? She did that ably enough by being in his memory - and probably moreso for the fact that he was able to hold the idea of her as something wonderful to return to and to live for, rather than someone who had to be feared for and guarded every second. Lastly - well, it's true that she could have done the same deed that thousands of girls in folksongs have done and disguised herself to accompany him, like Eowyn. No good. Apart from the fact that she would be breaking faith with her father, and all the previous problems with Aragorn fearing for her etc., what if she got killed, or he did? In the first case, it would be a Pyrrhic victory, since Aragorn makes it clear in ROTK that he'll marry Arwen or nobody (and if she's not available, there will be no heirs). In the second, she would have lost both her husband and her immortality, gotten the worst of both worlds. It's hard to imagine Arwen going off like that without marrying him, or indeed of his allowing her to go with him in that situation without marrying her. But it would be too soon, and the consequences would probably have been horrendous. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.