Denethor and Gandalf, total opposites?

[Boromir88]

Denethor and Gandalf, have this fond, sort of comical hate towards eachother, but they both brought diferent "qualities" to the table to help Minas Tirith "prevail." Not only prevail, but not one enemy entered Minas Tirith. Both, contribute to the victory of Minas Tirith, and without one Minas Tirith could have very well fallen. So I ask, if Minas Tirith would have been without Denethor or Gandalf would they have one?

Here is my argument,
Denethor learned a lot, and benefitted from the palantir (also was his downfall). He made very few mistakes in the defense of Pelennor and in the defense of Minas Tirith. His one mistake I could see was him sending out Faramir to go reclaim Osgiliath, which turned out to be an utter disaster. Other then that, he had walls set up, he had Gondor's armies coming in, he had sent Hirgon out to find Theoden, lit the beacons. Denethor did very well in setting up the defenses for Gondor. Without him, Gondor's defenses wouldn't have been ready in time.

What Gandalf brings to the table, is his leadership, his "pep-talks." It was said whenever Gandalf was around the hearts of men rose. Lets say Gandalf brings that "fire" to be in which I don't see any more "fire" left in Denethor, he is getting consumed by madness. (Truthfully Denethor had plenty of "fire" lol if you know what I mean). He just didn't have those leadership qualities, as Gandalf did.

Gandalf and Denethor have this comical hatred towards eachother but if Gondor didn't have one or the other, I believe it wouldn't have been victorious.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I don't think you'll find too much disagreement there.

[Guinevere]

Well, Denethor was only concerned about the wellfare of Gondor; and about the rule of his realm, but Gandalf was concerned about the fate of all the good people of Middle-earth. " For I am also a steward. Did you not know ?" he said to Denethor.

To Pippin who observed the two old men they seemed at first very similar, Denethor even appeared more kingly and powerful to him. But then " he perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled."

[ohtatyaro]

But to each his own - Denethor was not supposed to care. Gandalf was not supposed to care about the east, and so Denethor was not supposed to care about more than his country. He was not that bad, as they picture him, I think

[Amanaduial the archer]

Nice post, Boromir.

Denethor was 'blinded by his grief' - it caused him to act rashly. In the end, it could be argued that he became almost a liability in the fight because he seemed to be going mad, determined to have things end his way - when he took Faramir and decided to burn them both, I think it was maybe his way of trying to take control of events that were rapidly spinning out of his grasp, of ending things the way he determined and so having some of his power at the last. Maybe he felt some sort of jealousy or resentment towards Gandalph: Boromir, you said:

What Gandalf brings to the table, is his leadership, his "pep-talks." It was said whenever Gandalf was around the hearts of men rose.

So in this case, it seems, words spoke louder than actions This would probably have hurt Denethor: he had given his life for his city, to lead it strongly as a warrior, one of his sons giving his life for it - giving his life fighting, not talking. But when this white wizard came, this man whose robes were so clean and white it was as if he had never fought a battle in his life, and with a few fine words he stole the hearts of Denethor's people, while moving against the Steward (or so it would seem in Denethor's eyes, for Gandalph obviously wished to finally return the King to his throne) and taking advantage of his hospitality...well, you can see Denethor's point of view.

In this case, but not necessarily throughout LotR, Gandalph and Denethor may be seen as opposites in a way, in the ways they chose to fight (Denethor with actions, Gandalph with words), but maybe this made things rather more difficult in Minas Tirith - there was bound to have been some sort of undercurrent emotional battle between the two characters because of their conflicting interests, and without this - therefore without one of them present to stir things up - it may have gone more smoothly, and success more assured. Maybe things would even have turned out differently for Denethor at the very end, had he still remained entirely in control without the White Wizard to 'challenge' his authority.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Actually, Gandalf takes action and uses swords at times in both The Hobbit and LOTR. In LOTR itself Denethor is somewhat sympathetic, including behaving graciously towards Pippin (not the moronic movie characterization of Denethor).

But on later reflection, JRRT seemed to find Denethor quite flawed. In Letters #183: "Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it were, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of the east and southj would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest."

[ohtatyaro]

not the moronic movie characterization of Denethor

yes. definitely yes! Or, no, definitely no!

I mean I agree

[Isowen]

I think Gandalf was wrong to hide truth from Denethor, as Gondor is his city. And Denethor was being very stubborn so I doubt they could have won without the help of either of them. So Gandalf should have been a bit "nicer" to Denethor, after all his son had just died and in come two complete strangers telling him how to rule his city! And Denethor should have been open to suggestions, if he really cared about Gondor, but I suppose it is hard to trust people you've known for little time! Gandalf did most of the battle work while Denethor was up in the citadel setting fire to himself and his son!

[Voralphion]

Gandalf was not supposed to care about the east

Actually he was and did, he just thought that the best resistance to Sauron would come from the west, primarily the remaining elves, the descendents of the edain and their allies such as Rohan.
Denethor was entirely focused on Gondor and therefore his own power. He thought very little of the other inhabitants of Middle Earth including Gondor's allies. He thought of Sauron as a political rival, as someone who should be defeated because he infringed on Gondor's power not someone who should be defeated because they are a tyrant and are evil.

[ohtatyaro]

Very good post, Voralphion

He thought of Sauron as a political rival, as someone who should be defeated because he infringed on Gondor's power not someone who should be defeated because they are a tyrant and are evil.

And this is basically true. But not quite. I mean, people are not ready to die becuase of merely political rivalry, are they? Denethor says something like 'better be dead than enslaved', I just can't find the quote

The key to Denethor's failure lies far deeper in the history of men and can be traced back to the Akallabeth: "[death] became a grief to them only because coming under the shadow of Morgoth it seemed to them that they were surrounded by a great darkness, of which they were afraid; and some grew wilful and proud" (The Silmarillion). The weekness that we see in Denethor is the same weakness that brought the Numenoreans to Darkness. Seeing his sons die and the ending of the line of the Stuards of Gondor, the shaddow of death desended on him and he grew afraid. By the time Gandalf came to Minus Tirth he had already conquered Death and come back. The chief juxtaposition between the two charactors is that Denethor is "under the shaddow" and Gandalf is submerged in Light. Therefore I would say that yes the they where both instrimental in the defence of Gondor, Denethor through death, sacrifice and grief (the price paid by all involved in war), and Gandalf in the defence against the very power of the ring, which is fear.