Lament for the Elves

[Imladris]

I don't understand the thinking of elves these days. They've been turned into a pack of effeminate men who care only for hair oil and shampoo. Look at the pics of Legolas crying for his shampoo. I do realize that there were jokes between Viggo and Orlando, but I beg you to notice that Legolas does have a smudged face at the end of FotR. I also beg you to notice that Legolas fights with a bow, while Viggo fights with a sword. The logical conclusion is that Legolas is clean because he does not come in contact with the blood, thus he cannot become dirty.

As some of you know, I own a game in the Shire about Balin leading the dwarves into Moria. On the way, they had a run in with the elves. I suddenly became aware of this dreadful problem by the insults exchanged:

Girly-elf boy

Hair-preening nancy-boy

Lassie

So my question is this: why are elves viewed this way. Were they this way? Is it because in my RPG it's dwarves vs elves. If so, would the dwarves call the elves these names, or any insults along these lines? When I read the books, I definitely did not get the impression that elves cared for hair shampoo. Am I over-reacting?

Cheers,
Imladris.

PS. If any of you who are in my game view these quotes and recognize them as your own, please do not be offended. It is nothing against you. I'm just merely curious. Also, I did do a search and there were no plausible results. Although with a forum this big, I'm sure it's all the trick of having the right key word...

[Evisse the Blue]

I am not familiar with the RPG forum all that much so I don't know your game - however, I clearly understand what you're getting at. And I think it is mostly because of the movie portrayal of Elves, they do favour that sort of comments. I don't think anyone thought about Elves as prissy before Fotr came out. Tolkien always portrayed his Elves as strong warriors, majestic and not epheminate, like, I'm afraid, they appear in the movies. This is not movie bashing, it's just stating a fact.

[Firefoot]

Yes, I'd say it came about because of the movies. In the books I cannot imagine Dwarves using these kinds of insults. Also, here is an excerpt from BoLT 2 about what Tolkien thought about this stuff (always been one of my favorites because it is so against the movie portrayal )

Long afterwards my father would write, in wrathful comment on a 'pretty' or 'ladylike' pictorial rendering of Legolas:
He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of the Fellowship.

It would seem, being that Tolkien died before the movies came out, that this "ladylike" idea of Elves has been around for a long time, though JRRT never meant for them to be seen this way.

[Imladris]

But doesn't that quote you mentioned, Firefoot describe movie-Legolas? The elves were Fairfolk -- they were fair, not rugged. Granted, Legolas would probably have looked better if they had gone with black hair, but let's face it, he doesn't act effeminate. Elrond definately did not look/act effeminate. Haldir did not look/act effeminate.

[Bêthberry]

Dear Imladris,

I wish to make a comment here on behalf of the mods of all the RPG fora, but I am sure my words do not preclude comments from Pio, Child, Mith and others.

All games at the Barrow Downs must be true to the spirit of Tolkien and not merely a general form of fantasy or Middle Age scenario. It is true that as gamers move from The Shire to Rohan to Gondor, there are greater expectations for understanding Tolkien's Middle earth and greater scope for interpreting his work. In fact, the Golden Hall for Rohan explicitly states the expectation that gamers will know the books and not merely Peter Jackson's movies.

That said, if you as the Game Founder are uncomfortable with aspects of the posts in your game, I would think you could contact your gamers via PM and explain your thoughts, asking them to reconsider their phrasing.

I do this regularly as I moderate games and The White Horse in Rohan and I know that Pio and Child also help new gamers understand Middle earth in The Shire.

Of course, I think your thread is about more than just our games here; it is, as I see it, related to issues of how books are read and interpreted. In literary theory, this is referred to as the cultural dissemination of books (which is akin to but different from literary criticism).

There are wide-ranging ways in which we come to know texts. Some authors are part of the cultural furniture with which we furnish and decorate our houses of the imagination. People can refer to and understand authors' characters, stories and events even before reading the primary texts themselves. Or, indeed, they can read other authors' interpretations of their books before reading the 'original'. We can know "Wuthering Heights According to Spike Milligan" and Jane Urquhart's Changing Heaven before we ever read Emily Brontë's Wuthering Heights itself. We can know Henry James' take on 'Jane Eyre' in The Turn of the Screw before we read Charlotte Brontë's novel. We can know Francois Truffaut's Two English Girls before we know the Brontës. And then there is Jules and Jim. I know students whose first exposure to Wuthering Heights was from a Second City TV sketch, a wordless skit using semaphor.

This does not, of course, mean that books exist only in this process of cultural referral. But it is one way in which our understanding of books is filtered through this cultural static.

And, of course, another way to look at this question is to ask why Peter Jackson portrayed the elves as he did.

[Imladris]

So, Bethberry, are you saying that the way we view stories is affected by culture? Of course, people would also have different images of the things Tolkien described.

As for the games -- I was in no way implying that you held poor games. If I had thought about it like I do now I would have asked them to edit it. As it is, this just struck me a few days ago and those were written a few months ago. *shrugs* I didnt think it was that big a deal to go and ask them to edit. It was merely an example that was more serious than pictures of Legolas shouting for his shampoo in the Middle-earth Mirth section.

[Bêthberry]

I am suggesting, Imladris, that a 'pure' or 'original' reading of Tolkien is no longer possible (if it ever was). Readers must work through the ideas they have in their head about Middle earth, elves, dwarves, etc--ideas now largely generated by the movies and marketing--in order to try to understand Tolkien's text. Strong readers will do this. Less experienced readers will not. And many will never bother to deal with Tolkien's text but will remain within a movie/cultural static perspective.

I didn't mean to imply that you run a poor game, not by any means. I simply wished to clarify a point about what we expect of games here--a point which others might not understand as clearly as you do now.

[Lalaith]

Haldir did not look/act effeminate.

Hmmm....

[Amanaduial the archer]

Personally, I enjoyed that particular section of the game particularly, and I don't think I was alone But wait, you missed a few of the choicest:

fairy-boys

treehugger

And of course, Lin's fluent cursing...

Sissy long-haired creamy-skinned pointy-eared...

However...

In this particular case of dwarves and elves: The emnity between the two races has obviously and for several combined ancestoral reasons lasted for generations. Also, in a 'cat-fight', when insults fly, as was the case when Balin's crew chanced upon the Prince and his courtiers in 'Last Hope for Moria', almost anything would be picked on by both sides! Obviously, compared to the dwarves, hardy, stout and thought to have 'sprung from stone', the litheness, elegance and height of the elves of then-Mirkwood is a huge contrast. Indeed, the elves were standing up for themselves, with such insults as:

Garden gnome!

Is this a stereotype of dwarves? Well, yes. Their height is a fundamental point of their appearance and one which other races, including the readers/viewers, would immediately pick up on - possibly even the first one they would pick up on. In the same way one of the first things to be noted upon in the case of the elves is their enduring 'vitality' and, lets face it, beauty. The elves are, as you said 'fair folk' - and this is immediately remarkable. The references to their appearance are usually, if not always, favourable. Take, for example, a description of Glorfindel in 'Many Meetings' from FotR:

Glorfindel was tall and straight: his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young...his eyes were bright and keen and his voice like music

The film has, of course, enhanced this stereotype: Orlando Bloom's having been cast as Legolas probably didn't help very much in 'combatting' this - but then, does it really need to be 'combatted' as such? The first description of Legolas was rather sparse, only a few lines:

There was also a strange elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father Thranduil, King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood.

That's it. One sentence for our first glimpse of Legolas, less than half of which actually concerns his appearance. More is given to Boromir, even - he gets a whole paragraph! And bearing in mind the sparseness of this first look at Legolas, is it really a bad thing that the film-makers decided to build Legolas into the elegant, fine-looking character who appeared in the films? This finery of appearance, as well as his elegance and litheness, is befitting to the race - look at the other descriptions of the other elves, like Elrond (see Many Meetings and The Council of Elrond for a few examples), Glorfindel (as seen above as an example), Arwen or even the Elf-kings of old, such as Gil-Galad. It may be a selective sample of the race, but it is the only one that we have - all the elves who we encounter, as far as I can see, are indeed, very, very 'fair'. And Legolas is obviously wise, a thinker rather than simply a pretty boy - maybe he does come across as a bit of a fool sometimes in the films ("A diversion" - RotK. You all know what I mean - ah yes, all of the readers of the books cringed at that point ), but he is always noble and pure, as his speech and words are wise and deep (even more so in the books). So maybe we can look back at the immortal philosophy of Roald Dahl's 'The Twits' - those with bad thoughts begin to look bad and ugly and twisted, but if you have good thoughts and do good things, your appearance will reflect that accordingly.

(And for anyone who would like to see more of the insults exchanged in the RPG thread in question, look especially at page four at Will Whitfoot's first post - pure genius...)

~Aman

[The Saucepan Man]

It seems to me that this stereotypical image of Elves as rather effeminate beings with long (often blonde) hair and high cheek bones has arisen primarily for two reasons.

First, in many children's tales (of relatively modern origin), Elves are depicted as diminutive, fairy-like creatures. An example would be the story of the Elves and the Shoemaker, but there are many other examples. And although Tolkien made clear in his writings that this was not how his Elves were to be viewed (and even expressed some regret at using the word "Elf"), many will still come to his works with preconceived notions of what Elves are. Unfortunately, his portrayal of the Rivendell Elves in The Hobbit doesn't exactly help his cause ( ) and many readers first come to his works is by way of that book. But I think that it is fair to say that he was at pains to disabuse readers of such preconceived notions, particularly in the Silmarillion, but also in his depiction of the Elves that we meet in LotR (and even in the Mirkwood Elves later on in The Hobbit - Galion certainly seems to be a bit of a lad ).

But the second reason for this stereotypical image does, I think, lie in Tolkien's own description of his Elves. Notwithstanding his efforts to portray them as strong and majestic, he also (as has been said) conceived of them as a "fair folk". And it is difficult for those visualising his works (artists and film-makers alike) to depict them as such without borrowing from society's own notions of attractiveness. Which quite often means long flowing hair, delicate features and high cheekbones.

As Firefoot has quite rightly pointed out, this way of portraying Elves pre-dates the films. It is apparent in much of the artwork depicting Tolkien's works. And it is certainly apparent in the films. Whoever was responsible for casting certainly went for long blonde hair and high cheekbones when it came to casting the Elves, particularly the "chorus line" that turns up at Helm's Deep. Elrond is a notable exception, and, despite his boyish good looks, I would nevertheless maintain that Orlando Bloom's Legolas is no cissy.

Of course, it is Orlando who has become the butt of the "hairbrush and shampoo" jokes. But I have a feeling that this is not a new phenomenon. Such jokes are certainly more prevalent now, given the widespread popularity of the films (and accompanying resurgence in the popularity of the books), and also courtesy of the relatively recent technology which allows pictures (such as film stills) to be manipulated and distributed via the internet. But I seem to recall that the Legolas character in "Bored of the Rings" was rather obsessed with his appearance. And, when I drew a picture parodying the Fellowship some 20 or more years ago, I depicted Legolas with angular features, preening his hair and admiring himself in a compact mirror.

Both examples, of course, are a form of parody. As, indeed are the many jokes and images involving Legolas that are currently circulating. But I believe that the parody has its roots in the two basic reasons for the stereotype that I outlined above.

[Imladris]

It's not that I didn't enjoy the insults on the game, because I did. I'm just wondering if it was canonical or not with Tolkien. I personally think that Aman and Saucepan Man explained it very well and I honestly had not thought of it that way before.

So elves are prime material for being made fun of then? Good for parody?

[Amanaduial the archer]

In a spoof, every little thing has potential to be exaggerated. For example, in a few of the spoofs I have seen, Gandalph's pronunciation of Mordor has been played upon (so that every time he says it he has to take a huge breath before and then say "Morrrrrrrr*gasp*dorrrrrr"; as the spoof carried on, this just continued to get longer and longer). This is because someone has obviously picked up upon the fact that in the films, Ian Mckellan does, on several occasions, elongate the 'r' sound in Mordor, and it is perfect to play on. And as just about anyone who has seen the films is aware, Orlando Bloom does possess "boyish good looks", as do "the chorus line" (thank you, Saucepan ), and this is perfect to play upon in a spoof.

Originally Posted by Saucepan man

And, when I drew a picture parodying the Fellowship some 20 or more years ago, I depicted Legolas with angular features, preening his hair and admiring himself in a compact mirror.

Begod, the man is a psychic! Ahead of your time indeed, sir!

[Guinevere]

Well, after all, Legolas is described as "fair of face beyond the measure of men" in "The last Debate". But what is "fair" ? As long as we only had the books, it was up to the individual reader's imagination and taste.(which could differ widely)
And then there's the fact that elves have no beards (except Cirdan)...
As far as I remember it isn't mentioned in the books how they were dressed, or what length (or style) their hair was. (Except Glorfindels long golden hair streaming behind him when he came riding along)

[Lord of Angmar]

Elves are tall and fair, they talk to trees and are in tune with nature, they delight in dancing and singing and generally have good fashion sense. Spurred on by Legolas's portrayal in the Lord of the Rings movies and the common notion of elves as fairies with long pointy ears and Tinkerbell-wings, Middle-earth's Elves are as close to metrosexuals as you will find in Middle-earth, at least to that majority of the moviegoing public who are no more acquainted with the literature of JRR Tolkien prior to the release of the movies than they are with Caedmon's Poem or Gilgamesh.

I am unfamiliar with your RPG Imladris, but anyone who refers to Elves as "nancy-boy" and "lassie," even in the context of a game, does not seem fit to be participating.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Originally Posted by Lord of Angmar

am unfamiliar with your RPG Imladris, but anyone who refers to Elves as "nancy-boy" and "lassie," even in the context of a game, does not seem fit to be participating.

Lord of Angmar, the point in the game is that it is not the players who are referring to the elves as such, but the dwarves who they were writing on behalf of; as one acquainted with the books, you must know that, with the exception of Legolas and Gimli, dwarves have little love of elves. This came out duly and not inappropriately.

[The Saucepan Man]

... as one acquainted with the books, you must know that, with the exception of Legolas and Gimli, dwarves have little love of elves. This came out duly and not inappropriately.

I have to agree with Angmar that the references seem rather inappropriate. Not because they involve Dwarves insulting Elves, since that has clear precedent in Tolkien's works. But rather because they (or at least some of them) are modern phrases and terms of construction such that I would not imagine denizens of Middle-earth using. But I suppose it is no worse than film Gimli calling film Legolas a "pointy-eared Elf" or referring to an Orc's central nervous system.

[Amanaduial the archer]

True, some of them are maybe not entirely appropriate - but then, when exactly are the books based? There is no set time for them, and the language over the thousands of years Tolkien's works run over never actually seems to change - maybe there are specific elven insults. But I don't speak elvish, and neither do the majority of players on the game Imladris and I are running - sure, elvish insults may be more appropriate, and could be more amusing to an elf...but we aren't elves. An RPG needs a touch of humour here and there - the insults exchange with the dwarves was simply a way of creating one of these 'touches'

[mark12_30]

Even in LOTR, Frodo had to check Lobelia's umbrella.

In The Hobbit, Thorin's dwarves had no problems throwing insults... "As soon as I saw the little fellow puffing on the mat... looks more like a grocer than a burglar."
In terms of the RPG, these were trespassing Dwarves insulting Mirkwood elves. If the dwarves were throwing insults at ther Vanyar, that would be different, no? Or at Elrond or Galadriel, perhaps.

In The Hobbit (which, really, this RPG is more based on than the LOTR) Thranduill's elves have their laughable moments. The butler and jailer snore together in a drunken stupor; the portcullis elves sing "Roll roll rolling down the hole, Heave-ho, Splash- Plump, Down they go, Down they bump."

Legolas's power and elegance notwithstanding, the Mirkwood Elves are a humbler, simpler, and more humorous race than the stuffy Noldor. At least, I always thought so.

[Bêthberry]

An RPG needs a touch of humour here and there - the insults exchange with the dwarves was simply a way of creating one of these 'touches'

Really, Aman, for shame. As if only the Seventh Age could produce humour. And as if there weren't humour enough in The Hobbit for gamers to mine.

[Lord of Angmar]

Saucepan Man, you said exactly what I meant. It is fine and enjoyable to use humor in RPGs, but I cannot see a Dwarf of Middle-earth using the term "nancy boy". "Lassie," maybe, since I believe it is Middle English in origin, but it is still a stretch.

[Imladris]

I just looked up the word "Nancy." *stunned silence* If I had known it meant that before hand I would definitely had asked the person to edit immediately. Actually, I think that I will ask them edit just because of what it means and because it is definitely anti- canonical.

Just throwing this out because I'm intensely mortifyed, has Tolkien in any of his insults called a man girlish?

[Will Witfoot]

Well I do recognize those quotes *hangs head in shame*, as I am the culprit behind two of them.

I guess I'm just used to the way the Elves are portrayed in Warhammer world (which is one of my obsessions), where they are (at least by my interpretation) quite fastidious and cocky.

My appologies. I shall edit immediately.

[Bêthberry]

I shouldn't think the point of this kind of discussion is to mortify or embarass people and I certainly hope my comments have not been taken to do that. The thread began with a very important point from Imladris, that many things simmer in that cauldron of our imagination, many things that often we are initially unaware of, which can often distract from how others see our writing. A large gap falls between the intention of the writer and the act of reading.


Will Witfoot, you bring a very important acknowledgement out into the open with your recognition that Warhammar spices your Tolkien gaming. If you, and other gamers here, have learnt something about your writing for the RPGs at Barrow Downs from this thread, then all well and good I say.

Imladris, jolly good of you to check out the dictionary meaning of 'Nancy boy.' As to your question of whether Tolkien would have called a man girlish as an insult, let's think a bit about what his style of writing is and what kind of attitude lies behind that original phrase.

I think we would all agree that Middle-earth represents an idealised world. The elves remember a light of purity or wholeness and the other races strive to do justice to that light. Characters can be petty and mean-spirited and fallible (some of the hobbits and Boromir and Denthor, Grima) but the nasty, viscious stuff falls to the orcs and even with them there is a limit to what they say.

Secondly, Tolkien's representation of women is idealistic in that the major female characters are respected, even revered. Frodo's reaction to Goldberry can be seen to include sexual attraction or interest, but it is clearly described and expressed within his growing sense of the significance of the elves. (That, if my memory serves me right, is a topic that has not been discussed here, how LOTR presents the elves, first from the frightful, wild legends reported by the hobbits, to a more serious, exalted role.) Even Eowyn's attraction to Aragorn, which is clearly a young woman's nascent awareness of the attractiveness of male power, is described respectfully. Sexuality in LOTR is not mere lust. The "Mirror of scorn" is not prevalent in Middle-earth, perhaps because of the importance Tolkien places on pity and perhaps because he has chosen to focus upon how good overcomes evil rather than to explore evil itself.

Given this kind of thinking about Middle-earth, it seems very doubtful to me that Tolkien would ever denigrate women by using female terms to deride men (besides the fact that I cannot remember any, but my memory is a faulty spoon with which to stir the broth).

There is a decorum in Tolkien's writing which much in modern writing and, even, modern culture and expression, just does not have.

My apologies if I have rambled on. I think this discussion is very valuable as a way of contributing to our understanding of what the RPG fora are about and particularly what it means for gamers as they move from The Shire through Rohan to Gondor. But perhaps that means I have taken this thread off topic. Sorry, Imladris.

Edit: As a sort of PS, Aman, I would point out that we do have a sense of historical perspective about the timing of Tolkien's world. The War of the Ring occurs at the end of the Third Age, and we are living in the Seventh Age. (hence Child's name). And we can construct how many thousands of years belong to the first ages.

[Lord of Angmar]

I agree wholly with what you have said Bêthberry. Not only would Tolkien never stoop as low in his writing as to have one of his characters insult another by calling them feminine or 'girlish', he probably would not even understand why someone would do so. Calling a man 'womanly', or, as it has been so un-eloquently put, a 'nancy' (which is really a disgusting term when you learn its origins, which I'll admit I did not know before this thread began), connotes the idea that the man being insulted is somehow weak, feeble, cowardly, or just overtly feminine in the traditional sense of the word. Since in Tolkien's writing many of the most powerful characters are women (Galadriel, Eowyn, Luthien, etc.), and since none of his female characters display any of the stereotypical qualities of Victorian femininity, any such insults would be meaningless.

I do not mean any of the above to offend or upset the RPGers who used such terms; it can easily be forgiven since, admittedly, the movies (and traditional mythos behind 'elves') have turned the Lord of the Rings Elves into somewhat effeminate creatures in the eyes of many.

[mark12_30]

THis brings up the issue, then, that if we are going to perform a sweeping edit, we've got to find something else for them to bicker about. In TOlkien's world, what *were* the plausible insults?

"For some elves tease and laugh at them, and most of all at their beards."
"Don't dip your beard in the foam, father! It is long enough without watering it."
"Mind Bilbo doesn't eat all the cakes! He is too fat to fit through key-holes yet."

Old treasure wars?

The laws of hospitality?

Food for thought.

[Bêthberry]

Dear Helen and All,

Ummm, I don't think the point here is to make "sweeping edits" as Helen so names the activity. Will Witfoot offerred to make certain edits, but there has not been a large hue and cry for major reworking of any games. That was certainly not my suggestion. Nor do I think we need to set up a prescribed list of "canonical insults."

Perhaps this link which Aylwen Dreamson provided for the Rohan thread on RPG resources will be helpful in suggesting how to address the issue which Aylwen described by saying, "you can't rightly call another character a name from these days, can you? "

Elizabethan Insults


My point was merely to suggest that people think a little about aspects of language such as tone, modernity, connotations, style, etc. And in the process to point to some of the qualities of writing which distinguish the different RPG fora we have here.

Really, I think SaucepanMan said it best when he commented

But rather because they (or at least some of them) are modern phrases and terms of construction such that I would not imagine denizens of Middle-earth using. But I suppose it is no worse than film Gimli calling film Legolas a "pointy-eared Elf" or referring to an Orc's central nervous system.

[Lalaith]

Like Bethberry, I confess to faulty memory about insults in Tolkien. But, if it's any help to RPGers and others, there is an authentic tradition of insult-trading in Norse literature - which is after all where Tolkien got inspiration for dwarf names, runes and culture.
It's called 'flyting', and examples can be found in the Eddas and sagas.
And while I personally disapprove strongly of homophobic language, I would also add that the very severest of insults in the old literature do indeed refer to womanish behaviour in men. (In Njalssaga, for example, one Viking accuses another of being "the mistress of the Svinafell Troll, who uses you as a woman every ninth night.")
But bear in mind that this kind of insult was forbidden by law and usually sparked off the most hideous killings and blood feuds. So they were not flung around casually.
And while it is conceivable that dwarves might resort to such behaviour, I can't really see the elves either initiating or responding.

[Frodo Baggins]

I am quite glad this subjuect has been brought up. I have become quite sick of all the jokes portraying elves as sissys obsessed with hair care products. I have no problem with them being fair, I find that quite attarctive. And delicate does not necessarily mean fragile. Delicate could be refined and cultured. Defenitely Elves are wise and powerful, and also beautiful. But far from prissy.

Quick Edit here:

I also do not have a problem with long haired elves, male or female. I mean, corrct me if I be wrong but I always understood the fact that Elwe was called "Greycloak" because of the length and colour of his hair.

[Vanwatholiel]

Thank goodness somebody brought this up. I have been wondering, and seething at how people could say that Elves are self-centered and like to wash their hair. Elves are strong, mighty beings, granted not rugged, but fair, and delicate. Delicate does NOT mean fragile. They are full of wisdom. They are not human. I think that we are looking at them from a human point of view. To humans, they are prissy and sissy, but in Tolkiens world, they are the most wonderful beings in middle earth.

I believe that Elves deserve a lot more credit than they are getting. Gee, I am sooooo happy that somebody said something. The way the Elves, especially Legolas have been persecuted is wrong. Twisted and wrong. Sooo all things said, Legolas and the Elven species have been persecuted, but that ends now. Thank God. Thank you Imladris!