Are you Satisfied?

[Lindale]

Personally I'm content... I mean, I'd like more, but if it's all that is, then it's all. No more little books like the ones with Starwars. And if there indeed is more, then wouldn't the stories get a bit confusing?

[narfforc]

I am satisfied with what Tolkien left us as it stands, however I would like more. I feel that there is a possibility of more, inasmuch as the history of most things is a continous thing, it is still being written. I agree with Lalwende , in the view that Tolkien was pretty much burnt out at the end of The Third Age, he still had not finished, or had published his great work, The Silmarillion. I believe he neither had the will or strength to start a new story, his continuation of The History of Middle-earth was more important, and he would not be side-tracked again. I disagree with even Tolkien himself, that a story of The Fourth Age could not be written, or be of interest, he left many loose ends that could be expanded upon, the difference of me writing about The Dagor Dagorath and Tolkien introducing new themes based on old ones, is immense, yet I have done it, and in my mind, I believe had Tolkien taken up these new themes, he could have done this thing. I am but a lowly scholar of the great man, and my writing skills are puny compared to him, however my imagination knows no bounds, and I have for my own enjoyement written of The Return of Pallando. To do this I have had to take canonicity out of the argument. I did this by treating Tolkien as translator instead of author. He discovered/translated The Red Book of Westmarch and The Silmarillion, these are mainly a view of how The Elves and the Victorious West saw things (they did not know all things, Tolkien says so). Now imagine another ancient book turns up ala The Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi, this book is called The Black Book of Melkor, it is compiled by The Black Numenoreans and scholars from the East. The story told from their perspective is similiar, however it contains new themes that are not known to the West, here are just a few, for I can already hear the screams:

Melkor and Ungoliant destroy The Two Trees, and steal the Silmarils, however he also takes another great treasure, a flower from Telperion. He bathes this in the unlight of Ungoliant and puts forth his power into the corupted seeds. With these seeds he grows The Dark Tree, which he plants in caverns deep in the Mountains of the East, with this tree are The Fathers of The Orcs, the original Elven stock (it is their children that Melkor twisted into the Orcs). The Tree gives out an Unlight that will be needed to free Melkor Lord of Arda.

In the beginning Melkor corrupted many to his service, Alatar is one of these, this fact has been hidden from the Valar, the reason for this, is that Melkor forsaw the possibility of his fall, and he needed some form of insurance for his release/return, this was to have been Saurons domination of The Elves via The Rings of Power, however Sauron falls from his task due to his own will for domination. Enter Alatar, and a number of artifacts needed to consruct the Staff of Power, the key to unlock the Gates of the Night and allow The Dagor Dagorath to begin.

This is but a very brief description of my personal story, I have included them to show in some way a possible continuation of the story, there may be other better stories out there.

Please do not answer this thread with the usual SHOW ME WHERE TOLKIEN SAYS THAT, I know he did not, and even if I was secretly a member of the Tolkien family, and wrote this book, it would still have people howling at the moon.

My desire is for more, for other things, Aule would be proud of me...................


.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

First of all I appologise for not reading all of the previous posts and therefor beeing most likely to say things already said before. What can I say?! I am lazy today.

Anyways I like some others have a desire to read more and then again, I am afraid it would ruin it. I mean The world created by Tolkien is so complex, so detailed so uncomprehencable wonderfull that I wuld fear, almost expect any follow up to be a major dissapointment. On the other hand I have a craving for new material and stories from and about Tolkien. (Luckely I dont posses it all yet)

If there were to be published new material by Tolkien, I would prefer it not beeing about the 4th age. I would much rather learn more about the previous ages. There is so many places, where we dont hear anything about what happens for long periods of times. Or even just get some of the stories in a more detailed version. This wish is partly granted by the publications of "Unfinished Tales" but not completly. For one it would be better if there were not competing stories and of course I would prefer if Tolkien him self had finnished them.

We have so many characters, so many kingdoms that it should be no problem to make a even more detailed history of ME or maybe hear more about what is happening in Aman, surely History does not stop as soon as the Noldor leaves. The only problem is that we don't have Tolkien.

As I said I have the desire to read more, but I am actually quite pleased with what we got.

oh and narfforc I have read The Followship and The Two Townies, is there more coming up ?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Narfforc

To do this I have had to take canonicity out of the argument. I did this by treating Tolkien as translator instead of author. He discovered/translated The Red Book of Westmarch and The Silmarillion, these are mainly a view of how The Elves and the Victorious West saw things (they did not know all things, Tolkien says so).

Of course, 'canonicity' in the context of Tolkien is more complex than with other writers, a, because the Legendarium never achieved a fixed form & we don't know what form it would have taken had Tolkien had time to complete it &, b, because his wish was for 'other hands' to add to it.

It would be easy to say that 'canon' was what Tolkien wrote & published during his lifetime, but clearly if his intention during his lifetime was that others would contribute to it then he himself possibly had no concept of a strict canon. His desire to dedicate it to his country was in a sense a 'letting go' of it. It seems to me that as long as a work is in the spirit of Tolkien & & doesn't actually contradict the published work it is not going to be a problem to the man himself (CT's opinion, on the other hand, is another matter).

I agree with Lalwende , in the view that Tolkien was pretty much burnt out at the end of The Third Age, he still had not finished, or had published his great work, The Silmarillion. I believe he neither had the will or strength to start a new story, his continuation of The History of Middle-earth was more important, and he would not be side-tracked again.

CT says that the reason his father could not finish The Sil was that he was simply too tired - dismissing the theory that some people put forward that Tolkien couldn't bring himself to finish it because he felt that finishing The Sil would be finishing his own life (a theory CT must have come across, though I haven't). It seems that however much Tolkien attempted to set limits on his creativity it didn't work - deciding to forget a Fourth Age story in order to focus on the Elder Days merely resulted in his work on that period flying off at all kinds of tangents.

Unfortunately, we know he could get sidetracked by external stuff - reading Asimov among other things. As CT says, the whole creation had gotten too large & complex & he had gotten too old & too tired. (If you haven't seen the documentary JRRT: a Film Portrait, I can only advise you to try & get hold of it. I reckon the interview with CT takes up a good half an hour or more of film time & its probably the only filmed interview he's likely to do. Watching him read the final section of LotR is an very moving experience. Unfortunately the documentary was only available on VHS for a few years in the mid-late '90's so its difficult to find now & I used to panic when I watched my copy in case the machine chewed it up. Appropos of nothing at all can I just state here & now how cool DVD recorders are )

[narfforc]

Yes Davem I remember reading a letter or something where Tolkien is almost pleading with his son to try his hand at writing, and if he could not find his own style why not the style of his father, I cannot find it to quote, maybe you already know of it. To Rune Yes, The Retinue of the King is almost finished, I have just finished The Pyromaniac Denizen and The Houses of Squealing, I am working on The Last Debacle and The Back Gate Opens.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by davem

CT says that the reason his father could not finish The Sil was that he was simply too tired - dismissing the theory that some people put forward that Tolkien couldn't bring himself to finish it because he felt that finishing The Sil would be finishing his own life (a theory CT must have come across, though I haven't).

¬emphasis mine...

And think of it, it would be tiresome for us too, if we read everything Tolkien wrote and could have written.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lindale

¬emphasis mine...

And think of it, it would be tiresome for us too, if we read everything Tolkien wrote and could have written.

I suspect Tolkien would have agreed with you. What he wanted was to complete a final version of The Sil which he was happy with, not simply produce endless variants of the stories. Trouble was he couldn't bring the work to a final form. What CT has given us (rightly or wrongly), is all his father's attempts, over a long lifetime, to achieve that goal.

Personally I think much of HoM-e is redundant (even though a great deal of Tolkien's linguistic writings were not included & have subsequently been published in Vinyar Tengwar). Much of what's included could have been summarised without any loss. Still, we must be grateful to CT for the work he put in, & great deal of the material in HoM-e is of real value. Some is great literature.

[littlemanpoet]

Seems to me we need a new writer to step up and do something just as powerful and meaningful, and Harry Potter ain't the answer (imho), good and fun as it is.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

(If you haven't seen the documentary JRRT: a Film Portrait, I can only advise you to try & get hold of it. I reckon the interview with CT takes up a good half an hour or more of film time & its probably the only filmed interview he's likely to do. Watching him read the final section of LotR is an very moving experience. Unfortunately the documentary was only available on VHS for a few years in the mid-late '90's so its difficult to find now & I used to panic when I watched my copy in case the machine chewed it up. Appropos of nothing at all can I just state here & now how cool DVD recorders are )

Old VHS tapes can be burnt onto DVDs. Why don't you do that for posterity? It's a matter of conservation, not copyright. I'm sure there are film libraries that are into this kind of thing, especially those which wish to preserve early films. Why don't you look into it?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Old VHS tapes can be burnt onto DVDs. Why don't you do that for posterity? It's a matter of conservation, not copyright. I'm sure there are film libraries that are into this kind of thing, especially those which wish to preserve early films. Why don't you look into it?

Well, 'cos I thought it might be illegal - like scanning copies of Tolkien's works into word files & stuff, so even though we have a DVD recorder connected up to our vhs recorder & I could just copy it over, I swear if its not legal I never done it.

Of course, if Bb is correct then I may do it - but if its not legal to do it & I did do it, it was because Bb told me it was ok, & I can't be held responsible & I think Bb should be arrested for corrupting an innocent Tolkien fan & have the book thrown at her.

I definitely did not do it one Sunday afternoon 2 months ago - unless it is legal to have done it, in which case....

Hope that clears things up.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, 'cos I thought it might be illegal - like scanning copies of Tolkien's works into word files & stuff, so even though we have a DVD recorder connected up to our vhs recorder & I could just copy it over, I swear if its not legal I never done it.

Of course, if Bb is correct then I may do it - but if its not legal to do it & I did do it, it was because Bb told me it was ok, & I can't be held responsible & I think Bb should be arrested for corrupting an innocent Tolkien fan & have the book thrown at her.

I definitely did not do it one Sunday afternoon 2 months ago - unless it is legal to have done it, in which case....

Hope that clears things up.

I swear I have never heard davem sound quite so loyerly. He could put Sauce or Mithadan, our two resident (or in one case absent) loyers to shame! The things one learns to imitate here on the Downs.

But don't you be tying yerself to my coattails there. In my country making a personal copy for one's own private use is not illegal. I don't know how many times I have to tell people this. So if it's a book you want thrown at me, well, make it a Tolkien book, please, preferably one not copied by any illicit means in your country. Or if a book is not available, why any form of digital formatting would accomplish said punishment.

So if you came over here and did it, or sent it to me to do, then it clearly would not have been/be illegal, whatever act of consensual activity you may or may not have committed one Sunday afternoon 2 months ago. Not that I'm saying I have the technical gadgetry to accomplish this feat of conservation.

Now, were you to make more than one copy, number even not specified, to share with your fellow Tolkeeners here on the Downs, now that even here would constitute an infringement, which is why I didn't suggest it in the first place, even though you did advise us to get ahold of it. Of course, it would be very tempting, especially after explaining to us how interesting the interview is, to be able to provide us with the means of seeing the interview. Which is not to say make multiple copies. But you could loan out your copy--Lal having made her own personal copy so you have a fall back in case Royal Mail is just not reliable.

I think I'm drifiting here but you probably can intuit where things may or may not have been leaning especially after advising us of how cool DVD recorders are.

Originally Posted by Lal

The Fourth Age was the age of Men. Elves and Dwarves were diminishing, and Men were forbidden from entering The Shire. The Istari had gone. The Orcs were being hunted down. As far as we know, the Oliphaunts were all wiped out. No, I'm sorry to say that the Fourth Age just couldn't cut it in comparison to those Ages which had gone before.

There are a lot of books, films, comedy series and so on where I feel like I would love to see more, but in many cases being saturated with more and more 'product' just results in diminishing quality. If they had made more episodes of Fawlty Towers, Father Ted and The Royle Family then I think each series would have got less and less amusing. You only have to look at soap operas or series such as The Wheel of Time, which all seem interminable with the same plots being revised in the case of soaps (how many times have Ken and Deirdre split up?) to see why more is not necessarily A Good Thing.

Were all the Istari gone? I think Child and Durelin are using Radagast in their new 4th Age RPG.

And I have to say, apropo of British Television generally, or at least the sort that gets imported over here, that the really brilliant thing is that they are produced with an end in sight. This is one reason why, with some exceptions, I find HoMe to be such a, well, saturation point. Which I believe brings to me to one of the rare times--LMP take note--that davem and I agree.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Now, were you to make more than one copy, number even not specified, to share with your fellow Tolkeeners here on the Downs, now that even here would constitute an infringement, which is why I didn't suggest it in the first place, even though you did advise us to get ahold of it. Of course, it would be very tempting, especially after explaining to us how interesting the interview is, to be able to provide us with the means of seeing the interview. Which is not to say make multiple copies. But you could loan out your copy--Lal having made her own personal copy so you have a fall back in case Royal Mail is just not reliable.

Unfortunately it would only work on the PAL system, not on the US NTSC, so even if I was to make my (very probably non-existent) copy available to anyone across the pond they wouldn't be able to watch it.

So to all our US Downers I can only say 'See, now you're sorry about the War of Independence, aren't you?'

[narfforc]

Hi Davem, I have a JVC DVD/VIDEO/HD, I have used this to store all my old videos onto disc, my DVD player plays all zones. So next time you are anywhere near my hovel/cave bring it with you, you could stay, bring the lovely Lal with you, I will supply the Orc-brew and we can kill two eagles with one stone, for I have not seen this film and you could read my The Return of The Blues (The Continuing Mission to Boldly Continue the Mission)

[davem]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Hi Davem, I have a JVC DVD/VIDEO/HD, I have used this to store all my old videos onto disc, my DVD player plays all zones. So next time you are anywhere near my hovel/cave bring it with you, you could stay, bring the lovely Lal with you, I will supply the Orc-brew and we can kill two eagles with one stone, for I have not seen this film and you could read my The Return of The Blues (The Continuing Mission to Boldly Continue the Mission)

Well, as I say, I almost certainly don't have it on DVD, so I would have to bring the video, but we may pop along anyway soon - if we can find the time.

And I think now is about the time to stop talking about certain things......

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

So to all our US Downers I can only say 'See, now you're sorry about the War of Independence, aren't you?'

Maybe its payback for only being able to get Mike Leigh's amazing films Nuts In May and Naked on region 1 DVD. Grrrrrrrr.