Snow angels - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 10-04-2005, 08:56 AM

Can elves make 'snow angels?'

For those of you who aren't familiar with the concept, a snow angel is where one lies on snow-covered ground, then moves one's arms in a flapping motion. The legs are opened and closed repeatly, maximizing and minimizing the distance between the feet. After a few minutes of work, one then gets back up off of the snow. The resultant impression in the snow is that of an angel where the wings were created by the arm-flailing and the skirt/gown by the leg motion.

It's pretty cathartic, especially when done in the cold silence of a moonlit night.

Anyway, in FOTR we learn that when the Fellowship is attempting the Redhorn Pass that Legolas barely makes an impression in the snow with his slipper-covered feet. Is this something that he is actively doing, meaning that he could sink into the snow if he so chose, or is it something innate to elvish kind, where snow angels would exist only in their dreams?

Lalwendë · 10-04-2005, 09:20 AM

Would Legolas want to lie down in the snow anyway? It would mess his hair up!

Anyway, I think this could partly be answered by the 'custard theory' I put forward last December. You can apparently walk on custard (it would need to be considerably more than a bowlful) and not sink if you keep moving; this is similar to quicksand in that it is viscous enough to mean that the water (the stuff that dilutes the solids thus making custard, snow and quicksand perilous obstacles for unwary travellers) is displaced by your weight as you move around.

If the snow is 'viscous' enough to allow you not to sink in if you continue to trip lightly along (a la Legolas), but to leave a slight impression, then yes, Legolas could make snow angels. But maybe Gimli would also be busy making ultra-tightly-packed snowballs to throw at him for wasting precious time in larking about while they attempted to cross Caradhras?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-04-2005, 09:52 AM

It must be a skill. Elves still have mass and weight as Men do. They can crush things if they wish. It makes me think that they have a control over 'leaving a mark', say. And that's particularly important when it comes to nature. Men do 'leave a mark', everywhere as it is.

So Elves can enjoy the natural world without affecting it. Men cannot.

Gothmog · 10-04-2005, 12:53 PM

As Eomer said: elves have mass and weight just like men so it should be a "skill".

Regarding the oh so famous "custard theory", I don't think that's the case with snow. Look at a hare running on the snow. It doesn't sink if it sits still. Neither would Legolas. When walking in snow you either sink or you don't. Well, you might sink to different depths depending on your weight and for example the size of your feet, but it's not like quicksand (or custard I guess) where you sink slowly.

A thought came to me when I visualized the hare. Is it possible that elves have giant feet?

No, maybe not...

But if we go back to the original question: snowangels. Even if it is a skill to walk on snow, it's not sure if it's a "passive" skill or something that can be turned on and off. But during the snow-walking Legolas do leave impressions, though they're faint. That would mean faint angels...

I'm from the north of Sweden so consider me a snow-expert

alatar · 10-04-2005, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Regarding the oh so famous "custard theory", I don't think that's the case with snow. Look at a hare running on the snow. It doesn't sink if it sits still.

Also consider the consistency of the snow (fluffy, frozen over) and the weight/area distribution of the hare (note that to stay atop of snow, one wears snowshoes to widen the area by which one's weight is displaced. Conversely, to stay atop of fashion, one wears stilletoes...

).

Lalwendë · 10-04-2005, 01:29 PM

Custard...drool...

I'm sure that if you walked across custard, your feet would leave some kind of temporal impression, just as they do if you walk across wet sand, the kind of indentation that would last a little while, but not for long. The weight of your body would temporarily 'press' the water on that patch of sand/custard away, and then it would gradually seep back into its original position.

Now I know that snow is slightly different, as it is not a solid mixed with a liquid, it is a liquid in a different state. But whether or not you would be able to walk on snow would also depend upon whether it is hard or soft snow. If it was hard snow (such as is, or was, found in the polar regions) then you would be able to walk on it and leave little impression - similar to hard compacted sand. Soft snow would possibly support the weight of a small animal, but not so a human. Unless Legolas had hollow bones it must have been something about the way he moved on the snow to stop him falling.

Perhaps his grace and poise enabled him to walk on it much as it would allow a ballet dancer to stand on her toes (whereas I would probably end up in casualty). So if he was lying down in the snow then yes, he would be able to make a snow angel much as anyone else could.

alatar · 10-04-2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Would Legolas want to lie down in the snow anyway? It would mess his hair up!

Anyway, I think this could partly be answered by the 'custard theory' I put forward last December. You can apparently walk on custard (it would need to be considerably more than a bowlful) and not sink if you keep moving; this is similar to quicksand in that it is viscous enough to mean that the water (the stuff that dilutes the solids thus making custard, snow and quicksand perilous obstacles for unwary travellers) is displaced by your weight as you move around.

Though I only attended 10% of my physics classes (talking about falling cannon balls is fun, but shooting one off would be much more entertaining...), I'm just not buying it. Even assuming that I would float on custard (whatever that is...hmmm, my English-to-English dictionary describes it as some type of pudding), I would make some noticeable impression in it. My guess (have to go to the MegaMart tonight and buy all of their pudding stock to be sure) is that if I were to lay atop a tub of custard, I would sink. Assuming that it was really really thick, I would at least sink to 1/4 of my body width.

And so I'd be able to make pudding angels.

Snow is less dense than custard. Water is more dense than snow/ice. Could Legolas get his slippers wet? Could he have walked across the Anduin? Methinks not.

Bêthberry · 10-04-2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Can elves make 'snow angels?'

I think a correlative question is 'would they want to?'

The play of elves seems very serious stuff, full of Art, Wonder, Beauty and High Moral Purpose, but making snow angels reflects the very heart of play, at least for children--creativity and curiosity about all elements of the world, play for no ulterior purpose other than sheer delight in doing something, the release of pent up energy, no concern for posterity or eternity but a complete abandon to this moment in time.

No, doesn't sound like elves to me.

On the other hand, his slippers could be made of the same elven material as their cloaks and provide a physical defiance of gravity similar to the cloaks' defiance of sight. Either way, elves light, er lite!

Galadriel · 02-05-2011, 12:19 AM

Sounds generic, but if they can gather enough strength to hammer away at swords and shields, I'm pretty sure they can press their backs to snow. After all, they're elves. They might just consider it a work of art, and when they're done they'll stand up and say 'Whee! Snow art! Now let's rebuild Gondolin."

Though one thing did fox me:

"...and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow - an Elf." Unless, of course, he meant those tiny leaves that grow from the ground

10-04-2005, 09:20 AM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,814	Would Legolas want to lie down in the snow anyway? It would mess his hair up! Anyway, I think this could partly be answered by the 'custard theory' I put forward last December. You can apparently walk on custard (it would need to be considerably more than a bowlful) and not sink if you keep moving; this is similar to quicksand in that it is viscous enough to mean that the water (the stuff that dilutes the solids thus making custard, snow and quicksand perilous obstacles for unwary travellers) is displaced by your weight as you move around. If the snow is 'viscous' enough to allow you not to sink in if you continue to trip lightly along (a la Legolas), but to leave a slight impression, then yes, Legolas could make snow angels. But maybe Gimli would also be busy making ultra-tightly-packed snowballs to throw at him for wasting precious time in larking about while they attempted to cross Caradhras? __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-04-2005, 09:52 AM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	It must be a skill. Elves still have mass and weight as Men do. They can crush things if they wish. It makes me think that they have a control over 'leaving a mark', say. And that's particularly important when it comes to nature. Men do 'leave a mark', everywhere as it is. So Elves can enjoy the natural world without affecting it. Men cannot. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-04-2005, 12:53 PM	#4
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 443	As Eomer said: elves have mass and weight just like men so it should be a "skill". Regarding the oh so famous "custard theory", I don't think that's the case with snow. Look at a hare running on the snow. It doesn't sink if it sits still. Neither would Legolas. When walking in snow you either sink or you don't. Well, you might sink to different depths depending on your weight and for example the size of your feet, but it's not like quicksand (or custard I guess) where you sink slowly. A thought came to me when I visualized the hare. Is it possible that elves have giant feet? No, maybe not... But if we go back to the original question: snowangels. Even if it is a skill to walk on snow, it's not sure if it's a "passive" skill or something that can be turned on and off. But during the snow-walking Legolas do leave impressions, though they're faint. That would mean faint angels... I'm from the north of Sweden so consider me a snow-expert __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...

10-04-2005, 01:29 PM	#6
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,814	Custard...drool... I'm sure that if you walked across custard, your feet would leave some kind of temporal impression, just as they do if you walk across wet sand, the kind of indentation that would last a little while, but not for long. The weight of your body would temporarily 'press' the water on that patch of sand/custard away, and then it would gradually seep back into its original position. Now I know that snow is slightly different, as it is not a solid mixed with a liquid, it is a liquid in a different state. But whether or not you would be able to walk on snow would also depend upon whether it is hard or soft snow. If it was hard snow (such as is, or was, found in the polar regions) then you would be able to walk on it and leave little impression - similar to hard compacted sand. Soft snow would possibly support the weight of a small animal, but not so a human. Unless Legolas had hollow bones it must have been something about the way he moved on the snow to stop him falling. Perhaps his grace and poise enabled him to walk on it much as it would allow a ballet dancer to stand on her toes (whereas I would probably end up in casualty). So if he was lying down in the snow then yes, he would be able to make a snow angel much as anyone else could. __________________ Gordon's alive!

02-05-2011, 12:19 AM	#9
Galadriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion Posts: 551	Sounds generic, but if they can gather enough strength to hammer away at swords and shields, I'm pretty sure they can press their backs to snow. After all, they're elves. They might just consider it a work of art, and when they're done they'll stand up and say 'Whee! Snow art! Now let's rebuild Gondolin." Though one thing did fox me: "...and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow - an Elf." Unless, of course, he meant those tiny leaves that grow from the ground __________________ "Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil Last edited by Galadriel; 02-05-2011 at 12:31 AM.