Numenorean Likenesses

[Glirdan]

Now, I wil admit that I haven't done any reasearch to see if there's a thread similar to this ( ) so if there is, please feel free to add any link and what not. Also, If this thread shouldn't be hear, please be my guest and move it.

As I was watching television a little while ago, a sudden thought burst into my mind: are we going to end up like the Numeanoeran's? But before you answer, I want you to give what I'm about to say some thought.

The Numen's (for short), at the end of their ruling, became greedy and violent. All of this was influenced by the works of Sauron. Can we base our lives today on that simple little fact? It is human nature to be greedy, and, as we are told (or some of us believe) the war in Iraq was started by Bush over oil (that is a general thought amongst many people I know). Is it possible that, because of this and other factors that can arise as well as the human nature of greed, is it possible that we ourselves would end up destroying the earth we live in over that one little word? We've already destroyed Iraq over it (and other reasons as well), will we end up doing this to our world (by we, I mean mankind in entirety)?

[narfforc]

This glob of dust may be here for a long time, in some form or other, whether the human race as we know will is another matter, maybe sometime in the future seven spaceships may escape this madness and find peace on a planet to be named Middle-earth, the problem is we are cursed with the Pandora's Box syndrome and how will we purge ourselves of our base instincts, will we transport our disease across the universe or will mankind grow up one day and become Elven.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There is a similarity in the growing arrogance and greed
of Numenoreans in their prosperity and relative safety
from Middle-earth travails, and the arrogance and greed
of, mainly but not exclusively, the curent American
Republican ruling establishment toward the world outside the U.S.
America's relative (despite 9/11 when compared
to, say, Europe) safety and ability to project power to the
other regions of earth is remarkably similar to the Numenoreans.
Perhaps regular elections might have saved Numenor?

[Glirdan]

Perhaps regular elections might have saved Numenor?(Tuor)

Ah! Democracy! What a wonderful solution. Who knows? Maybe it would have saved them.

This glob of dust may be here for a long time, in some form or other, whether the human race as we know will is another matter, maybe sometime in the future seven spaceships may escape this madness and find peace on a planet to be named Middle-earth, the problem is we are cursed with the Pandora's Box syndrome and how will we purge ourselves of our base instincts, will we transport our disease across the universe or will mankind grow up one day and become Elven.(narfforc)

This is an interesting theory that I myself actually thought of. It all depends who departs in those space ships now doesn't it? We cannot send the VIP's (aka, the President of the States, the Prime-Minister of Canada, the Queen of England [although that probably wouldn't be a bad choice]) as the same greed and power will travel with them and all the others, just as it would have been if Ar-Pharazôn would have departed for Middle-Earth instead of Valinor. But if we (by we, I mean us Downer's [for the most part]), just like Eärendil, departed on those ships instead of the VIP's, would we be able to stem the greed and arrogance?

[ninja91]

Well, I dont see the need to bash Bush, and for that matter I do not know why politics is being discussed.
But yeah, I would not mind becoming and elf...

[Glirdan]

Ninja, I'm not bashing just Bush (although I really don't like the guy), I'm maknig an inquiry(sp?) about our lives! Look at it this way: we know that the Professor incorporated WWII as well as many other symbolic representations (such as religion and science). How do we know that he didn't incorporate mankind's foolishness, greed and arrogance?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Look at it this way: we know that the Professor incorporated WWII as well as many other symbolice representations (such as religion and science). How do we know that he didn't incorporate mankind's foolishness, greed and arrogance?

I think he did.

One thing we should maybe remember, is that Tolkien himself (if I'm not totally mistaken), like his character Faramir, dreamed of a great wave that wipes away...

I think the issue has been become more emphasized and clear lately. Maybe we could compare the tsunami in East Asia and the hurricanes on the North American coast as the sea against the humans, like with Númenórë.

Maybe Tolkien was a prophet.

[Glirdan]

Maybe Tolkien was a prophet.

Now that's what I call a creepy thought. *Shudders*

One thing we should maybe remember, is that Tolkien himself (if I'm not totally mistaken), like his character Faramir, dreamed of a great wave that wipes away...

I think the issue has been become more emphasized and clear lately. Maybe we could compare the tsunami in East Asia and the hurricanes on the North American coast as the sea against the humans, like with Númenórë.

This is an interesting idea and new information to me. I rather like this comparison. My reason being is this: in any great novel (Mary Shelley's Frankenstein for instance) when somebody dies in water, they are cleansed of their sins. The same case applies to fire. We could even link this to the great flood where only Noah and his family survived. Could Tolkien have been comparing Eärendil to Noah?

[Raynor]

Could Tolkien have been comparing Eärendil to Noah?

I wouldn't say so; the closest to that would be Elendil (Tolkien calls him a "Noachian figure" in letter #131). He discussed in the letters and the Notion Club Papers about about Earendil being a divine messenger (but not Christ).

[Lalwendë]

At an entirely non-political, non-philosophical level, many people may well suffer a Numenorean fate in some way as our growing demand for land has led people to build on land which it is not safe to build on. We drain water meadows in the UK to build housing estates and they invariably end up flooding, and though people at the moment only lose their furniture and carpets, if the ice caps continue to melt they will start to lose a lot more.

The idea of the all-consuming wave is a common one in world cultures and myths, and Tolkien picks up on this. I'm sure such myths will continue to have relevance as time moves on; cultures have been lost to the waves before and they will be lost again. I suppose the element of greed comes into modern examples where people are building over our natural meadows and trying to tame rivers and seas that do not need to be tamed, as we could live elsewhere?

[Glirdan]

The idea of the all-consuming wave is a common one in world cultures and myths, and Tolkien picks up on this. I'm sure such myths will continue to have relevance as time moves on; cultures have been lost to the waves before and they will be lost again. I suppose the element of greed comes into modern examples where people are building over our natural meadows and trying to tame rivers and seas that do not need to be tamed, as we could live elsewhere?

Actually, a certain "mythological" civilization that comes to mind is Atlantis. We have absolutely no proof proving or disproving that Atlantis in fact existed, kind of like the case with Numenor. The only difference is that Eärendil brought scrolls and other artifacts with him back to Middle-Earth. However, almost all of those are now lost with the exception of the two (or is it three?) Palantiri along with the few scrolls that were salvaged. Can we link this Atlantis? I believe yes, no matter how weak it is. I myself do believe that there was an island that was sunk due to natural disasters. I mean, look at the state of California! Pretty soon, the entire state will be sunk under water due to the movements of the earth's tectonic plates. Here's how I look at it: once California goes under, how much proof will we have to prove that California did exist? Not a whole lot except old maps and other old records which might end up being burned or recycled (well, the maps will anyway). Yes, there is a point to all this jumbled up madness and here it is: besides the fact that they were also men, how many ways can we compare ourselves to the Numenoreans?

[Thinlómien]

Númenor was certainly Tolkien's Atlantis.

After its downfall it was called Atalantë (you don't even need to be a linguist to see the similarity between Atalantë and Atlantis) which is simply the Quenya word for "the downfallen".