Elves who don't speak Westron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kalimac · 10-05-2002, 05:29 PM

I hope this is the right board for this question - putting it here because it doesn't have anything to do with translations or vocabulary, just general stuff. Anyway, I was rereading FOTR (of course!) while taking a break this afternoon, and was thinking about part where the Fellowship enter Lothlorien and Haldir speaks to them in the Common Tongue, and explains that his brothers - along with many of the other Lothlorien Elves - know very little or nothing of that speech. But when you think about it, it's hard to believe that any Elf, with thousands of years to work with, would never during all that time pick up at least a good smattering of Common Speech. Especially since Lothlorien seems to have had more traffic in the earlier, happier days, so presumably most of the Elves there would have learned some form of Common Speech for when they were travelling from Lorien to Rivendell and back, if nothing else.

But what form of Common Speech? Hundreds of generations of Men and Hobbits have been born, lived, and died during the time between Isildur's death and Bilbo finding the Ring. Shouldn't the Common Speech have changed quite a bit during that time? You'd think that whatever version of Common Speech that Isildur spoke would have as little in common with the version that Frodo speaks as Anglo-Saxon has with modern English - in fact, probably less, since three times as much time has passed.

So - and I'm sorry for this huge buildup - how do the Elves keep up with this? Did Haldir's brothers et al actually learn Common Speech, albeit they know the version that was spoken 500 years or so ago and which would be useless to Frodo & Co.? Is Elrond only able to communicate with the Fellowship because he's in constant contact with the outside world and is able to keep up with the linguistic changes? Or does Common Speech just not change that much, and Haldir's brothers etc. just never bothered to learn it even once?

Maybe Tolkien said something about this somewhere, if he did it'd be good to see that. Otherwise - any opinions? Thank you very much for reading this to the end, by the way [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

Diamond18 · 10-05-2002, 05:39 PM

I don't have anything illumating to add on the subject of Haldir and co., so I won't. Though it is a good question.

I just wanted to remark that though Tolkien does talk in the Silmarillon about changing languages and all that, Middle-earth strikes me as very unchanging in all the countless years that comprised the three ages. Clothes, manners, technology in weapons and architecture, etc. did not change there in eons as much as it changes in decades for us.

I kind of like that, since I'm not a huge fan of change in my own life. I know, silly little hobbit, but anyway... It does seem to be a bit unrealistic, even if the same Elves have been around all this time.

I'm sure this also ties in to how when Saruman figures out machines, Tolkien makes it out to be a very bad thing. But I won't go into that, since it strays too far from your question about Haldir, which far higher minds will be able to answer, I'm sure. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

akhtene · 10-05-2002, 06:55 PM

Nice question, Kalimak

From what I read in the Appendix, Westron was in origin the language of the Atani and probably suffered much Elven influence. Furthermore, Numenorians returned ro using their ancestrial language after ages of speaking Elven, so most probably they borrowed a lot from it into their tongue. Thus I'm trying to say that Westron couldn't have been absolutely alien to elves.

As for changes in the language, they don't happen in a day. Those who (like Elrond) were using it for regular communication must have had chance and time to update their vocabulary and what else you need to understand another. Only if you stay cut off the rest of the world, you may start facing the fact that your language is outdated. And becides, the motivation to learn or keep up a language disappears.
Perhaps JRRT had some other explanation to this. For most part those are just my ideas brought up by learning and teaching a language. And by the 3rd night at the screen...

Lomelinde · 10-05-2002, 09:10 PM

I think you pretty much answered your own question as you were pondering it.

Either the Lorien Elves stopped trying to keep up with the ever-morphing language of their mortal friends (whom they rarely saw anyway), or they figured it would be a waste of effort from the get-go to learn a tongue they would probably seldom use.

Although, if I had that much time on my hands, I would learn a new language just to keep from going insane with boredom.

lathspell · 10-06-2002, 11:01 AM

Nice question indeed!

I think most Elves of Lothlorien were in no way interested in the 'Outside World'. And I guess that if they didn't know it, it doesn't mean that they never knew it. It may be so that after the disaster of Khazad-dum and all the nasty happenings that made travellers travel less often, they just forgot and afterwards never tried to learn or relearn it, because there was in no way contact with the other races.

About the changing of languages I can only give one example that I know of by head. When Theoden meets the Hobbits at Isengard he calls then Holbytla. They tell him that they call themselves Hobbits and then he speaks: 'Your tongue is strangely changed over the years' (or quite like this)
So... yes, the languages do change in M-e, but I can't say in what manner.

greetings,
lathspell

**lindil** · 10-07-2002, 12:37 AM

Lothlorien was an amazingly insular society.

I doubt if many wanted to even go to Rivendell. Galadriel had created a little valinor, time moved there so slowly it truly was 3000 or so years behind the rest of the world. I imagine it was for an elf rather addicting.

Recall that Celeborn says to Legolas that that he had been to long sundered from his kin in Thranduil's realm.

So probably very, very few Elves in Lorien knew the CT. Why would they? Compared to any Elven -speech , aduniac and it's later descendant must have seemed harsh and unlovely. if they were going to learn anything it would probably be Quenya! Or try and keep their native Sylvan dialect alive.

Yes they had the time, but few had the need or it would seem the desire. Mortals [and their speech as lindir would say] were not their concern.

Susan Delgado · 10-07-2002, 01:03 AM

Galdriel creating a little Valinor, I like that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

All I can say is, for a race so fixated on the past, it probably wouldn't seem necessary to most of the Elves in Middle Earth (especially the ones in Lothlorien) to keep up with events pertaining to the future. Their own native language would seem like enough to them.

10-05-2002, 05:29 PM	#1
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Elves who don't speak Westron I hope this is the right board for this question - putting it here because it doesn't have anything to do with translations or vocabulary, just general stuff. Anyway, I was rereading FOTR (of course!) while taking a break this afternoon, and was thinking about part where the Fellowship enter Lothlorien and Haldir speaks to them in the Common Tongue, and explains that his brothers - along with many of the other Lothlorien Elves - know very little or nothing of that speech. But when you think about it, it's hard to believe that any Elf, with thousands of years to work with, would never during all that time pick up at least a good smattering of Common Speech. Especially since Lothlorien seems to have had more traffic in the earlier, happier days, so presumably most of the Elves there would have learned some form of Common Speech for when they were travelling from Lorien to Rivendell and back, if nothing else. But what form of Common Speech? Hundreds of generations of Men and Hobbits have been born, lived, and died during the time between Isildur's death and Bilbo finding the Ring. Shouldn't the Common Speech have changed quite a bit during that time? You'd think that whatever version of Common Speech that Isildur spoke would have as little in common with the version that Frodo speaks as Anglo-Saxon has with modern English - in fact, probably less, since three times as much time has passed. So - and I'm sorry for this huge buildup - how do the Elves keep up with this? Did Haldir's brothers et al actually learn Common Speech, albeit they know the version that was spoken 500 years or so ago and which would be useless to Frodo & Co.? Is Elrond only able to communicate with the Fellowship because he's in constant contact with the outside world and is able to keep up with the linguistic changes? Or does Common Speech just not change that much, and Haldir's brothers etc. just never bothered to learn it even once? Maybe Tolkien said something about this somewhere, if he did it'd be good to see that. Otherwise - any opinions? Thank you very much for reading this to the end, by the way [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

10-05-2002, 05:39 PM	#2
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,561	I don't have anything illumating to add on the subject of Haldir and co., so I won't. Though it is a good question. I just wanted to remark that though Tolkien does talk in the Silmarillon about changing languages and all that, Middle-earth strikes me as very unchanging in all the countless years that comprised the three ages. Clothes, manners, technology in weapons and architecture, etc. did not change there in eons as much as it changes in decades for us. I kind of like that, since I'm not a huge fan of change in my own life. I know, silly little hobbit, but anyway... It does seem to be a bit unrealistic, even if the same Elves have been around all this time. I'm sure this also ties in to how when Saruman figures out machines, Tolkien makes it out to be a very bad thing. But I won't go into that, since it strays too far from your question about Haldir, which far higher minds will be able to answer, I'm sure. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-05-2002, 06:55 PM	#3
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 392	Nice question, Kalimak From what I read in the Appendix, Westron was in origin the language of the Atani and probably suffered much Elven influence. Furthermore, Numenorians returned ro using their ancestrial language after ages of speaking Elven, so most probably they borrowed a lot from it into their tongue. Thus I'm trying to say that Westron couldn't have been absolutely alien to elves. As for changes in the language, they don't happen in a day. Those who (like Elrond) were using it for regular communication must have had chance and time to update their vocabulary and what else you need to understand another. Only if you stay cut off the rest of the world, you may start facing the fact that your language is outdated. And becides, the motivation to learn or keep up a language disappears. Perhaps JRRT had some other explanation to this. For most part those are just my ideas brought up by learning and teaching a language. And by the 3rd night at the screen... __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

10-05-2002, 09:10 PM	#4
Lomelinde Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ha! Wouldn't you like to know? Posts: 80	I think you pretty much answered your own question as you were pondering it. Either the Lorien Elves stopped trying to keep up with the ever-morphing language of their mortal friends (whom they rarely saw anyway), or they figured it would be a waste of effort from the get-go to learn a tongue they would probably seldom use. Although, if I had that much time on my hands, I would learn a new language just to keep from going insane with boredom. __________________ The Dwarf breathes so loud I could've shot him in the dark, drunk, blindfolded and hanging upside down from a tree.

10-06-2002, 11:01 AM	#5
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Nice question indeed! I think most Elves of Lothlorien were in no way interested in the 'Outside World'. And I guess that if they didn't know it, it doesn't mean that they never knew it. It may be so that after the disaster of Khazad-dum and all the nasty happenings that made travellers travel less often, they just forgot and afterwards never tried to learn or relearn it, because there was in no way contact with the other races. About the changing of languages I can only give one example that I know of by head. When Theoden meets the Hobbits at Isengard he calls then Holbytla. They tell him that they call themselves Hobbits and then he speaks: 'Your tongue is strangely changed over the years' (or quite like this) So... yes, the languages do change in M-e, but I can't say in what manner. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

10-07-2002, 12:37 AM	#6
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	Lothlorien was an amazingly insular society. I doubt if many wanted to even go to Rivendell. Galadriel had created a little valinor, time moved there so slowly it truly was 3000 or so years behind the rest of the world. I imagine it was for an elf rather addicting. Recall that Celeborn says to Legolas that that he had been to long sundered from his kin in Thranduil's realm. So probably very, very few Elves in Lorien knew the CT. Why would they? Compared to any Elven -speech , aduniac and it's later descendant must have seemed harsh and unlovely. if they were going to learn anything it would probably be Quenya! Or try and keep their native Sylvan dialect alive. Yes they had the time, but few had the need or it would seem the desire. Mortals [and their speech as lindir would say] were not their concern. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-07-2002, 01:03 AM	#7
Susan Delgado The Perished Flame Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: behind my eyes Posts: 1,096	Galdriel creating a little Valinor, I like that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] All I can say is, for a race so fixated on the past, it probably wouldn't seem necessary to most of the Elves in Middle Earth (especially the ones in Lothlorien) to keep up with events pertaining to the future. Their own native language would seem like enough to them. __________________ "Man as a whole, Man pitted against the universe, have we seen him at all 'til we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?"