Elves and Ringwraiths

[Gurthang]

Does anyone besides me find it rather ironic that the men who accepted the rings from Sauron became more powerful than elves?

Now, it is generally assumed that on a normal day elves are more powerful than men. Not necessarily in strength, but in will, magic, skills, and vitality. But, the men who were consumed by the nine were different. They almost gained more from their 'transformation' than they lost.

One perk is that they became invisible. This would come in handy for eavesdropping , but it also creates a good fear tactic and would be useful in combat. They became semi-immortal. They could not die, and their spirits would always remain even if they were defeated, so they never could truly be defeated.

Due to these changes, it seems to me that the Nazgul became more powerful than the average elf. They were seduced by their rings(which is bad), but ended up more powerful than before(which is good for them, bad for everyone else). Which brings me back to the beginning. Doesn't that seem like its backwards?

[Boromir88]

No one could combat all 9 at once, but one-on-one, a lot of people could contend with them. Heck, Aragorn took 5 of them, anymore he might have been defeated though. I believe Gandalf combatted all 9 on Weathertop, but he had to retreat. In a fight, no one could take on all 9. One-on-one, I feel as a different story, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, Cirdan, Gildor would probably mop the floor. But, these are some of the most powerful elves on Middle-earth (well Gildor left, but he was once there). To an average elf (which I would classify even below Legolas who I think is above-average) then ya the Wraiths would beat them. But a man can beat an average elf.

[Gurthang]

So the average man could beat the average elf one-on-one? I'd always thought of the Eldar as a superior race, being the first-born and all. But maybe that reputation comes from their countless years fighting Morgoth before men showed up.

But Boromir brings up a good point. The wringwraiths relied on their numbers quite often when they battled. At least when facing one opponent, or a small group of weaker ones, such as the hobbits. In big battles, like outside Minas Tirith, they spread out more to take out as many of the grunt soldiers as possible. Which makes sense. They didn't want to confront Gandalf right at the beginning, after all.

[Fingolfin II]

Gandalf said that Aragorn and Glorfindel together couldn't defeat the Nazgul on foot. As Boromir said, it is doubtful whether anyone not wielding the Ring can defeat all Nine by themselves. However, if anyone could do it, I'd back Gandalf the White- he was capable of fighting the Nazgul when he was Gandalf the Grey and he could defeat (albeit, he might not be able to kill- the prophecy) the Witch-King in the form of Gandalf the White.

As to whether who would win out of Elves and Men, I'd say it's an individual thing. Turin beat Saeros and Beren defeated Celegorm and Curufin, though I'd certainly say that Elves would probably be the superior fighting race, as they are in lore, music, etc.

Remember, the Numenoreans learned a lot from the Eonwe and the Eldar, as well as discovering a lot for themselves, so my bet is that any Elf from the Blessed Realm (and even the 'average' Elf) has a greater chance of defeating a man. However, there are exceptions. It's hard to say who'd win a fight between the 'average' Man and the 'average' Elf, because although Men are said to be stronger, we all know there are many factors in a fight rather than just brute strength- i.e. stamina, speed, skill, etc. It's like asking who would win a fight between Fingolfin and Hurin, or Gil-Galad and Tuor, or Aragorn and Glorfindel- there's no real telling who would win.

To get back to the original question, I would say yes, the Nazgul are stronger than most Elves as a result of the power instilled in them by Sauron's Nine Rings. However, we have seen that some Elves, such as Glorfindel and even Men - specifically Aragorn and Eowyn - have defeated the Nazgul, whether temporarily or in Eowyn's case, for good. Elves born in the Blessed Realm live both in the Ringwraith and 'normal' world and are said to have a great power against the 'shadows of Men' that are the Nazgul.

However, as I said before, this is an individual case, so therefore sweeping generalisations cannot be made. I acknowledge though that Elves are the 'superior race' in general compared to Men. To me, the Nine Rings put the Ulairi (I'm getting sick of saying 'Nazgul' all the time ) on the same plane as most Elves, though people like Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel could defeat them individually. Whether they could defeat them in whole group remains to be seen.

EDIT: The Nazgul have an advantage over Men that they can travel unseen and also the advantage of fear. After all, this is said to be the King of the Nazgul's main weapon (aside from that beastly mace- urgh!).

[davem]

But the Rings don't make them more powerful in themselves - they become enslaved to Sauron & its basically his power which they manifest, not their own. Its more a case, I think, of Sauron being more powerful than the Elves - yet even he was no undefeatable. He was beaten by Elendil & Gil-galad, even when he had possession of the Ring.

The power thing is a difficult issue, as this 'power' is more a negative thing than a positive one. It is a 'power' to negate, consume & destroy, not to create & build. The power of the High Elves could drive it back - hence Glorfindel could drive back the Nine simply by approaching them. The Light of Aman was in his face: he had seen the Two Trees before they were destroyed. The Darkness could not stand against that so the Nazgul were driven back.

I think that what we're dealing with is not a contest of strength - whether the Elves are stronger that the Nazgul in the sense of one human being more powerful than another - but of different 'forces' creation vs destruction, life versus not death but 'unlife', Light versus 'unkight'. Or 'presence', being, versus 'absence', unbeing

[drigel]

If there is anything to compare, its possibly with the unseen side of things. Elves can walk both in the seen and the unseen world. Mabye thats what is implied here: that while a mighty enough elf could destroy the physical rainment of a Nazgul, the undead spirit could never be destroyed while Sauron existed. Hence the "Nazgul can never be defeated" quote. An elf could clearly see that. The unhoused Nazgul spirit would simply recloak itself (in time) in another physical shell...?..?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

Gandalf said that Aragorn and Glorfindel together couldn't defeat the Nazgul on foot. As Boromir said, it is doubtful whether anyone not wielding the Ring can defeat all Nine by themselves. However, if anyone could do it, I'd back Gandalf the White- he was capable of fighting the Nazgul when he was Gandalf the Grey and he could defeat (albeit, he might not be able to kill- the prophecy) the Witch-King in the form of Gandalf the White.

As to whether who would win out of Elves and Men, I'd say it's an individual thing. Turin beat Saeros and Beren defeated Celegorm and Curufin, though I'd certainly say that Elves would probably be the superior fighting race, as they are in lore, music, etc.

Remember, the Numenoreans learned a lot from the Eonwe and the Eldar, as well as discovering a lot for themselves, so my bet is that any Elf from the Blessed Realm (and even the 'average' Elf) has a greater chance of defeating a man. However, there are exceptions. It's hard to say who'd win a fight between the 'average' Man and the 'average' Elf, because although Men are said to be stronger, we all know there are many factors in a fight rather than just brute strength- i.e. stamina, speed, skill, etc. It's like asking who would win a fight between Fingolfin and Hurin, or Gil-Galad and Tuor, or Aragorn and Glorfindel- there's no real telling who would win.

To get back to the original question, I would say yes, the Nazgul are stronger than most Elves as a result of the power instilled in them by Sauron's Nine Rings. However, we have seen that some Elves, such as Glorfindel and even Men - specifically Aragorn and Eowyn - have defeated the Nazgul, whether temporarily or in Eowyn's case, for good. Elves born in the Blessed Realm live both in the Ringwraith and 'normal' world and are said to have a great power against the 'shadows of Men' that are the Nazgul.

However, as I said before, this is an individual case, so therefore sweeping generalisations cannot be made. I acknowledge though that Elves are the 'superior race' in general compared to Men. To me, the Nine Rings put the Ulairi (I'm getting sick of saying 'Nazgul' all the time ) on the same plane as most Elves, though people like Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel could defeat them individually. Whether they could defeat them in whole group remains to be seen.

EDIT: The Nazgul have an advantage over Men that they can travel unseen and also the advantage of fear. After all, this is said to be the King of the Nazgul's main weapon (aside from that beastly mace- urgh!).

Give us a proof that men are stronger than Eldar.
Don't come with that "Turin thing" because he wasn't fighting an Eldar.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Give us a proof that men are stronger than Eldar.
Don't come with that "Turin thing" because he wasn't fighting an Eldar.

Yes, he was, actually, according to the definition of "Eldar" used in the published "Silmarillion"- there the Nandor were Teleri, thus Eldar. Mind you, Tolkien's concept of "Eldar" vs "Avari" was one he revised quite a bit, as he did many other things... but that's in itself a reason not to get too dogmatic on these sort of issues.

More to the point, the member of whom you're demanding "proof" made that post ten years ago, and hasn't been around for a while... so I'm afraid you could be waiting a long time for a reply.

Welcome to the Downs!

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Give us a proof that men are stronger than Eldar.
Don't come with that "Turin thing" because he wasn't fighting an Eldar.

Men are no where near as strong as an average elf and they lack the 'magic' the elves have. The exceptions being the men with divine ancestry or the ones practicing black magic.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans who experienced a new enlightening and restoration in the Numenor. The Numenoreans are not distinguishable from the Eldar. When Tolkien compares the average heights the Numenoreans are equal with the Noldor.


However, if we are talking about individual houses then the House of Hador and Beren are physically the stronger than elves. Tolkien may have decided to drop the story of even Fingon being unable to wear the Dragon's helm, but there is lot's of other evidence.

Turin and Beren are probably the two strongest physically out of any elf or man. After that comes the House of Hador and House of Fingolfin. The early Numenorean Kings being descendants of Hador and Fingolfin would be there as well.

[King of the North]

The "power" given to the nine is not a gift. Once they accepted the rings they were seduced and were bound to the One Ring. Their sole purpose is to find it. That is the only reason why they have power. Always they feel the presence of the ring, they yearn for it. They are slaves to Sauron's will. Never, will they stop hunting for it. Being a nazgul is not as good as u would like to believe.

[Boromir88]

Neithan, I would classify an average elf as right around Legolas' ability. Not Noldor elves, they are some of the more powerful elves. So just your basic elf Silvan or Sindarin elf warrior.

Obviously someone could hold a different view .

[drigel]

Being a Noldor in itself wouldnt neccessarily translate into being a powerfull warrior. I would say the Eldar in general would apply as more powerfull. Granted, most Eldar in ME at this time were Noldo, and most of these had seen many years of war. By LOTR, there werent a lot of Eldar around ME, but there would be no comparison IMO with any other type elf.

But, as warrior prowess goes, I would submit that there were at least as many (if not more) Sindarin elves who I would rate as high (at least on the warrior skills rating).

Silvan/Avari - eh .... probably quite a few who were way up there on the "ranger" type skills: hunters, trackers etc., that could translate very well into warrior type skill sets. But yea for the most part - better at partying than fighting

Against a Ringwraith, any elf who didnt bring an Eldar to the fight would be sorely tasked.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, we cannot judge, whether a Nazgul is more powerful as an elf, because their strengths are lying in total other fields.
As Neithan pointed out, the Nazgul's dreadful weapon was the fear. They aren't really good warriors. Aragorn (as it was altready posted serveral times) banished five of them at Weathertop. He didn't kill them, because they are really difficult to kill (at least the body). But not very difficult to banish.
The Nazgul fear themselves a lot. They fear flowing water, fire, "Elbereth", their master ;-) ...
Banishing them is not the problem, if the person, who tries, have enough bravery to fight against them. There is the crux.
It is necessary for fighting against them, that the person have got a strong spirit, strong will power, like Aragorn have it obviously. He can fight against them and banish them. Obviously Glorfindel have these attributes, too.
Elves seems to have an advantage over Men anyway. Men are mostly more weak. A good example, where we can see the weakness is the Ring.
So, when we are talking about who is more powerful: Elf or Nazgul, then I would say, that a Nazgul is a more powerful weapon against not strongminded enemies (i.e. Battle at the Pelennor), but Elves are generally better warriors and could defeat (or banish) the Nazgul, when they are strongminded enough.

[Boromir88]

Nothing against you Brandybuck, but the problem with that argument is this...

Due to these changes, it seems to me that the Nazgul became more powerful than the average elf.

That is the subject that is up to in debate. Your examples, which are valid, all deal with some of the most powerful people people in middle-earth. Aragorn, for a man, is one of the more powerful men, and better swordsmen. The thing that's in debate, is that an elf is usually more powerful then a man. But, in the 9 wraiths it seems like their rings enhanced their ability, making them stronger then the elves.

In some cases, Elrond, Aragorn, Glorfindel, Gandalf, are able to drive away the nazgul, but these are again some of the most powerful people on middle-earth. Where a wraith would mop the floor with one of you every day elves.

I think when comparing them, the nazgul are stronger then MOST elves, would be fair to say. Certainly not all elves, because as shown, they can be beaten, however it takes people like Glorfindel or Gandalf to do that, and they are no slouches.

Elf or Nazgul, then I would say, that a Nazgul is a more powerful weapon against not strongminded enemies (i.e. Battle at the Pelennor), but Elves are generally better warriors and could defeat (or banish) the Nazgul, when they are strongminded enough.

I agree, and let's look at the people who are able to do that. The four mentioned above. Imrahil and his knights were able to withstand the shriek, now would they be able to defeat the nazgul? We don't have any word of them squaring off, so no one knows. Since, they are able to withstand the shriek though, and not cower in fear, one could assume that they could "banish" the nazgul.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Does anyone besides me find it rather ironic that the men who accepted the rings from Sauron became more powerful than elves?

Now, it is generally assumed that on a normal day elves are more powerful than men. Not necessarily in strength, but in will, magic, skills, and vitality. But, the men who were consumed by the nine were different. They almost gained more from their 'transformation' than they lost.

One perk is that they became invisible. This would come in handy for eavesdropping , but it also creates a good fear tactic and would be useful in combat. They became semi-immortal. They could not die, and their spirits would always remain even if they were defeated, so they never could truly be defeated.

Due to these changes, it seems to me that the Nazgul became more powerful than the average elf. They were seduced by their rings(which is bad), but ended up more powerful than before(which is good for them, bad for everyone else). Which brings me back to the beginning. Doesn't that seem like its backwards?

Hi everyone,

I remember reading that "...Elves do not fear them" (ringwraiths), though I can't for the life of me cite the quotation and place it to someone, though, I recall encountering the quote when looking up Annatar, the Ost-In-Edhil and history of Elves and Sauron. The nub of it was that Elves--already in two worlds at once--are either immune, or more resistant to the fear effects of the Nazgul--(and this bit we know from many precedents, including what was said about Glorfindel, for example, and what occurred when he assisted Frodo).

I've been trying to fathom what, exactly, it is then, that defines the core difference between Nagul in the wraith/spirit world and Elves when they are in that realm. Icy touch, death stares and so on don't come with the Eldar when they go into their 'fey' form. So, I don't believe the key difference is about 'good versus evil' Spirits, though this is implicated, somehow.

I'm wondering whether there is some variation on the channelling of Spiritual Energy through the Spirit Realm, in the very metaphysical 'organisation' of the flesh of the two distinct kinds of Spirit beings. Recalling, here, that Morgoth and Sauron were pervertos who got lustful and greedy about messing with Eru's and the Valar's Music of Creation, ergo Orcs from Elves, for example. Blarogs (beings of Shadow and Fire) and what Gandalf said to the Balrog, in a metaphysically significant comment: "I am a wielder of the Secret Fire". Some kind of stepping up to the plate, to match Mr Balrog's 'shadowy' version of 'metaphysical fire'. Presumably, 'Secret Fire' meant something to do with, perhaps, Eru's 'flames in the void' sort of thing.

If I had to think of 'metaphysical dimensions' to collapse to make a ringwraith, I'd be channelling a perversion of the Spirit Flame thing Eru goes on about. One that drains Life from the (mortal) body and replaces the flesh with Shadow Fire/Spirit, or that fortifies the lifespan by being a big 'power sink' syphoning the energy of life into the Undead being. A variation of the Elven Spirit world, but one that is life draining, c.f. life sustaining. I've often imagined that when one of the Nine used the Ring, before transmuting into Undead, some part of their Mortal essence was drained away into Sauron, while, instead, Sauron's mental and material presence grew in the man. I recall reading that the Nine, when they were not yet fully altered, grew unable to tell the difference between a thought that was theirs, and one of Sauron--until their Wills were one and the same, basically. This event is very 'Sauronic' and very much how the literature implied how me operated. For example, when he discorporated when the Ring was Unmade, all his Orc legions were basically free of his will. The Sauronic presence was about how he could permeate through Nature and Beings.

To support the idea of 'life draining' or 'Spirit Fire that syphons life--wraith', I cite their opposite in their 'Elviish' variant: The Three Elven Rings that, inspired by Celebrimbor seeking to manifest a 'minivalinor' in Middle Earth, basically, seemed to extend what happened in the Elven body, over a dominion or place, without violating life force or will of others (Lothlorien. Galadriel's capacity to stop 'fading' and to bear a variation of what occurs in Valinor to Middle Earth). The Silmarils, the Phial of Galadriel, the Two Trees, the Elessar, and so on, were all artefacts that were not just 'bright lights' but were, somehow, living lights radiating with 'life itself'--the eternal flame.

Cheers
Irviniel (Imrahil's older sister. She's not very happy with the 'boy prince' thing and decided to stomp her foot and make a realm for herself )