**RotK - General impressions and opinions**

where were the rangers...? where were the flags of the king...? where were the man in the Shire...? Is this Lord of the Rings: the Peter Jackson film?....hmmm?

[Gorwingel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And as the final nail in the coffin for book readers 'Sam' gets to walk in the wrong door. So instead of the door of bag-End closing where it all began in The Hobbit, we get #3 bagshot row. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, that bothered me so much <BR>When I first read the spoilers for the ending I assumed that they would be ending at Bag-End, but I was wrong. It would have been nice if they had ended at Bag-End and they should have ended there. But I guess the director decided that he did not have enough time to say to the audience that Frodo passed down Bag-End to Sam and his family, and so thus it had to end at the Gaffer's hole, the incorrect hole. But I don't know, it just bugs me.<P>I also too thought that they seemed to be hurring through the story, and that is very odd for me to be saying that about a 3 1/2 hour film. For me it seemed like they spent 2 seconds with this charater, and then had to move to another charater, and so on and so on. This one seemed the most like <I>Lord of the Rings: Cliff Notes</I> to me. I still enjoyed it though, I thought that it was a really great, wonderful film, and an amazing achievement. Those were just my major gripes.

[Kalimac]

Whew - saw it last night, now I can finally look at the board again.<P>I'll leave detailed stuff for the individual character threads, but overall, just wanted to say that it was excellent. But too rushed, like a lot have said. I'm guessing the EE will take care of this - I got a lot of the same impression I first got with FOTR, that it was basically hopping from one climax to another. The FOTR EE took care of that - adding more mortar to the story, so to speak - and from all the loose threads left in this one (Eowyn and Faramir standing together at the end, but their relationship not spelled out, the references to Denethor's farsightedness but not to his Palantir), I'm guessing it will as well.

[doug*platypus]

I thought you guys might like to read the first impression of a friend of mine. He has read the books, but probably not to the point that many of us on the Downs have. I'm always interested to see what the man in the street says about the movies.<P>By the way, I previously made a gross misjudgment in labelling the Bagshot Row/Bag End change as minor. As I have pointed out elsewhere, no detail is too minor on this site, and rightly so. I myself have minor gripes with Gandalf's white staff among other things, and I had no right to imply that the views of other posters were not valid simply because on this point they did not agree with my own. Apologies to lindil.<P>Without further adieu (by the way, there is no point replying to or flaming this review as the person who wrote it does not frequent the Downs):<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> First impressions were ok, the ludicrous amounts of hype kind of affects your objectivity, even though I've tried to avoid it I've still probably heard more from the actors outside their roles than in them. Nice to have some big scale battle scenes, but while I thought PJ's insistence on having emotional involvement with the characters (how many times do we have to see frodos tear rimmed eyes) was a good idea and made for a better movie, how about some more strategy and bigger picture evil vs good? ie more gandalf, and where the heck was saruman? On the dvd I guess, no complaints there. I loved the orcish commander (goonies!) the trolls, the fell beasts, actually all the monsters, it really was a spectacular. At the risk of sounding critical (I hear collective groans) what was up with eowyn/aragorn? Aragorn is definitely my biggest sore point. Eowyn crying all over him while he stands and looks like a shocked and witless king (??) He really didn't do it for me in this movie, in the first two, yeah.. but in 'Return of the King' despite all the adoring gazes that the king of rohan bestowed upon him, the only reason I would follow his heroic charges into battle would be because gandalf believed in him/he is the one etc.. not because of any great charisma or leadership. I think he looked out of his depth the whole time, not taking hold of the role and doing anything with it, apart from growing a beard. The one time that aragorn did take control of the situation, suggesting that they lead a diversion outside mordor, McKellen looked more amused than impressed. One last complaint (you know I have to do this) will have to be laid down about the witchking, leader of the nazgul. OK, fine his fell beast got killed by a lady of the court, but please.. one swing of his mace for her shield, shoulder, arm and then never mind the 'fool! no mortal man can kill me, oh no it's a lady I'm paralysed and totally shocked to see a woman in battle in these medieval times' crap, lay down the terror, lay into her, feast on the king and get into it. I'm sure one little hobbit stab wouldn't slow him down too much, being immortally cursed and all that. I always wanted those guys to go a bit harder, the scenes where they are terrorising the fleeing knights across the plain were awesome, and swooping the castle wrecking stuff, fantastic. Favourite scene would be the whole Mt doom sequence, from minas morgul on, frodo and sam up the mountain, loving that. The start scene where smeagol takes the ring chilled me, really well done the way the ring took control so fast, freaked me out. Elrond, great, I thought he looked impressed by the whole situation, especially when he sorted the sword out for a wooden aragorn and when he gave arwen away. The lighting of the beacons was majestic, god please defend new zealand. The whole end sequence I enjoyed, I could talk about the hobbits enjoying a very lengthy goodbye scene at the river just before running off to get some tattoos done or something but I won't, it was very lovely to see that they were genuine and really felt it was the end of something. and yes, I know, very crucial to the story, but where was saruman again? what was gandalf up to in minas tirith before the attack when he took control of the cities defence? excuse me, I go too far. someone please buy me the dvd for christmas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kalimac]

Oops, one thing I meant to write earlier. Gorwingel, that change could be ameliorated a good bit just by having Frodo add a sentence or two at the Grey Havens about "Bag End is yours, Sam." I hope they do, largely because even a non-book-reading audience is going to wonder, hey, what did happen to it? That's a nice piece of property to just walk away from. In that case, we'd know what happened, but Sam would still go back to Bagshot Row since in the movie universe, his family is still living there and going straight to an empty Bag End would be a little pointless.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, it's been a few days since I saw the film, and this is the first chance that I have had to post here. Probably a good thing too, since I was just too awestruck to be objective straight after seeing it.<P>Actually, I probably still am. I don't think that I have ever sat through the closing moments of a film before with my mouth just gaping and tears streaming down my face. I <I>never</I> cry in films. I have to see it again as soon as possible, although sadly probably now not until after Christmas. <P>No doubt in my mind that this is the best of the three films. I have been an avid fan of Tolkien's book for some 25 years. Each of the films has caught, for me, the sense of wonder that I experienced on first reading the book. But this film, much moreso than the other two, encapsulated for me the main themes that I have always taken from the book: Frodo and Sam's bond of friendship, Sam's incredible loyalty and committment to Frodo, the development of Merry and Pippin from naive young Hobbits to heroic warriors in their own right, the sense of hope in a situation of utter hopelessness, incredible bravery against seemingly overwhelming odds, the comradeship and eventual friendship of Legolas and Gimli. And much more that I could mention. A real emotional rollercoaster. I don't think that I have ever felt quite so emotionally drained after watching a film.<P>And all that wrapped up in a fantastic visual treat. As always, the visualisation, for me, was almost exactly spot on.<P>The highlights for me:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Smeagol and Deagol - I felt that this really enhanced the impact of the Ring's power;<LI>The first shot of Minas Tirith - breathtaking;<LI>The parting of Merry and Pippin - Boyd and Monaghan were magnificent here;<LI>Everything else that Pippin/Boyd did;<LI>Everything that Sam/Astin did - here at least Jackson and Tolkien saw eye to eye - Sam is the real hero of the story;<LI>Gollum - the highlight of TTT and, if anything, better here - I completely forgot that he was a CGI character;<LI>Shelob - terrifying, and much moreso for her looking (and, even more scarily, moving) just like a real (albeit very large) spider - after the so-called Wargs, I was worried about Shelob, but now I am happy;<LI>The Paths of the Dead - the close-ups of the Dead King and his army were awesome (one minute a face, the next a skull), although the long shots (ie the "green virus") were a tad disapointing;<LI>The Beacons - absolutely stunning from a cinematographical point of view (although I didn't envy the guys who had to man some of them);<LI>Faramir's "suicide" mission, accompanied by Pippin's mournful song;<LI>The Seige of Minas Tirith and the Battle of Pelennor Fields - absolutely stunning, and I liked the way that it built up with one visual treat followed up by an even greater one;<LI>The charge of the Rohirrim - Thedoen's speech was utterly rousing and the charge was magnificent;<LI>The Oliphaunts - I have always loved the Oliphaunts;<LI>Eowyn and the Witch-King - never mind losing the original dialogue, it worked for me (although I would have preferred more to have been made of Merry's contribution);<LI>Cirith Ungol - shame that Shagrat and Gorbag's discourse was massively cut, but great that Sam got to play the great warrior, and Sam's moment of hesitation before returning the Ring to Frodo was first class;<LI>THE EAGLES! - I don't know why but they bring tears to my eyes every time they appear;<LI>Sammath Naur - I don't think that it could have been more perfect, save that I would have cut down on the shots of Gollum struggling with an invisible Frodo, which were on the verge of looking silly - but Astin and, especially Wood, were magnificent - Elijah's Frodo came of age for me here.</UL><P>So, just about everything really. <P>Oh, OK. A few gripes:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Too much of an imbalance between Merry and Pippin - much as Pippin is one of my favourite characters from the book, I would have liked to have seen more of Merry's development and (as I said before) more made of his involvement in the slaying of the Witch-king;<LI>Saruman's absence - I suspected that the lack of any resolution to his involvement would be noticeable, and (to me at least ) it was - hopes for the EE here;<LI>No Gandalf/Witch-King - the way the Witch-King was built up, this would, I think have added to both characters in the film - hopes again for the EE;<LI>Things were waaay too close together - not just in Mordor, but also Minas Tirith and Osgiliath - it seems like all Faramir and his troops had to do was to cover the distance of a few football pitches before they got from one to the other - I can understand the need to show the relationship between the two (and Cirith Ungol/Mount Doom/Barad-Dur/the Black Gate), but I am sure that this could have been done while still keeping more faithfully to the "real" distances;<LI>Arwen supposedly being sick and tied to the fate of the Ring - it was never explained why this was, and it seems totally gratuitous;<LI>Denethor - I have no problem with his character change to an unstable and basically unsympathetic character since things needed to be simplifed for film format and there was never going to be enough time to develop the complex character of the book, but he should at least have been allowed to die with dignity.</UL><P>And it's not really a criticism, and certainly not one that many here would make, but I did feel that the film took too long to end. After the climax of the Black Gate/Sammath Naur, we had numerous "tying up" scenes, and I felt that these went on just a bit too long for this film (although the length is not out of place as a wrap up for the full 10 hours or so taken up by all three films). But, as I said, this is not a criticism for me, since I cannot see what could have been cut out here. It was utterly necessary to have Aragorn's coronation, the Hobbits returning to the Shire, Frodo explaining his sense of alientation and, of course, the Grey Havens. I do wonder what non-book fans will have been making of this, although I think that it is a credit to Jackson that there was minimal seat-shifting going on during these scenes in the cinema where I was. It did, however, really bring home to me the correctness of omitting the <I>Scouring of the Shire</I>. Much as I would have liked to have seen it in, this would have been asking too much of audiences.<P>So, one or two minor gripes. But they really do pale into insignificance, as far as I am concerned, in the context of the utter magnificence of this film. Certainly the most riveting, moving and spell-binding film that I have seen for many a year, perhaps ever. <p>[ 11:49 PM December 21, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Everdawn]

A burning Question, since we few here in Australia dont get ROTK till boxing Day. <P>Is there in Imrahil or Beregond?

[Phervasaion]

Theres definately no Beregond and i cant remember seeing Imrahil. If he was then he had a very minor part.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

No, neither of them were in it.<P>Ok, minor gripe would be I wish Frodo had told Gollum that if he touched him again he would end up in the Cracks of Doom...<P>Major gripe would be Denethor. In the book he was much more cunning, much more nulti-layered. He was grieving- but he was still cunning, he used his grief as a cloak to interrogate Pippin. And he did by no means abandon the cities defences. The beacons were lit and armies summoned. Then in the film...he was a 2D character. Overcome by grief, and that was it. I suppose it highlighted his preference for Boromir over Faramir, but I'm sure John Noble could've coped with a more complex character given the chance. I thought he was very good with what material he had. So why couldn't they have made him even a little more wise? Just so that Pippin could show his worth did not seem too good a reason for me...

[BeeBombadil]

I saw the movie again on Sunday...much better the second time around though I still miss the Houses of Healing. I caught a lot more on the re-viewing, much more detail. If you liked it the first time, you might like it better the second...or third...or fourth...or...

[Theron Bugtussle]

I will pretty much say, Amen, to Saucepan Man's overall impression of this movie. It may indeed be the best movie I have ever seen. Though, it is of necessity predicated on the previous two to set it up--it is a single story, not three.<P>I get emotional at movies when I have invested intellectually in the characters, in the writing, and in the principles being enacted--which means rarely. However, this movie had me bawling with little restraint when I knew that any minute now, Sam would say, If I can't carry the ring, I can carry you and the ring. When he did, and picked up Frodo and staggered determinedly on, I "lost it." <I>Thank God for Tolkien.</I> <P>My fourteen year old son, who has not read the book by the way, but has heard the BBC radio drama, commented, that movie kicked my a*s. By which he meant, he was moved beyond compare.

[Finwe]

Amen to Saucepan Man's post! I felt the exact same way about RotK! I saw it for the second time on Friday, and I still cried like a baby at the very end. It was the first movie that literally had me frozen in my seat, with tears streaming down my face.

[Meela]

I just got back from my second viewing. It's improved. And I cried more.

[*Varda*]

It was amazing. Of course, there are always those few little moments that I don't like, but as was previously said by somebody, they really do just pale into insignificance. That was the best movie of the lot, the best movie I have ever seen, and who knows - maybe it's the best I ever will see?<P>The scenery was breathtaking, the acting was moving...I only saw it today, so I'm really quite lost for words. I cried from the Pelennor to the end, so PJ's obviously doing something right. I'm not usually one to cry so much at films.

[Arcuwen]

Wow, where do I start?! I'm trying to find a word to describe how good it was, but none of them come close to how I felt about it. Let's just go with excellent, moving, and amazing for now. There were some parts that I thought could have been better. First, Sauron's eye. The whole spotlight thing was a little corny. It reminded me of a video game...avoid the spotlight! Secondly, Theoden's death was by far not as moving as I thought it would be. After balling while reading that part of the book, I was somewhat disappointed. No Scouring of the Shire, but that was to be expected. Eowyn and Faramir! They cut it out almost all of it! Well, maybe it'll be in the extended addition. Finally, Saruman. I was a bit confused about why they didn't really give the whole Saruman situation an ending.<P>Highlights of the movie for me...I don't know where to begin! Well...let's see...Pippin was AWSOME! Just everything about him was amazing! How can you not love Samwise in this movie? Arwen...thankfully didn't take over the whole movie. Denethor was so good! John Noble did an amazing job. His jump off the cliff was kind of hokey, but oh well. Gollum and Shelob were excellent. My arachnophobic friends sure didn't like Shelob because she was so real looking. Pelennor Fields was intense and breathtaking. It was so great I felt as if I was in the midst of battle alongside the soldiers...maybe sitting in the 3rd row had something to do with that also. The lighting of the beacons probably was my favorite part. Howard Shore has outdone himself again. They did a good job with the Gray Havens scene, much better than I expected them to. There are so many more things I've just begun to think of, but I've probably said too much already. So what are you waiting for...go see it! If you've already seen it...see it again!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I know that I am in the minority, but the movie left me a bit cold, as if it happened in a parallel universe to the book. It had none of "the feel" of Tolkien's work to my mind though some spots seemed very well done in their own right, like Pippin's song and the lighting of the beacons, quite beautiful. <P>At least I'm not as upset as I was with TTT. They didn't murder it, just changed the tone quite a bit. But I'm bizarrely apathetic toward it.<P>Did miss the red arrow,the mithril coat, houses of healing, Aragorn and the palantir, etc. And was it just me or did Sam and Frodo suddenly get hobbit clothes back again in Mordor? Suspenders and all. I can't imagine an orc using suspenders, they definitely seem more of the belt type! <P>Sean Astin did do a superb job, though.<p>[ 5:36 AM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Hilde Bracegirdle ]

[Everdawn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No, neither of them were in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>*faints* Ahhhh! but they are who I was counting on seeing! Well i guess the movie is still worth the wait, is it not?

[Lathriel]

Just saw it tfay and i have to see it again!<BR>I loved the movie except for one thing. Arwen connected to the ring...sure... <BR>However I think Elijah Woods acting is the strongest in this movie. <BR>I only cried once before for a movie but during this movie I was on the verge of tears often. I said to myself, if PJ does a good job i will cry in the end and i did!<BR>Favourite parts:<BR>Faramir riding forth to Osgiliath while Pippin is singing and Denethor, he is just eating! While his son is riding towards almost certain death<BR>The beacons, the views were awesome.<BR>Ride of the Rohirrim<BR>And you got to give credit to Howard Shore. I thought the music was awesome! When Frodo is almost at the cracks of doom a flute begins to play (Played by Sir James Galway best flute player in the world) And I thought the music went so well with the moment it almost gave me goosebumps.<BR>I just hope that in the EE they will have some mention of the house of healing. <BR>Me and my two friends decided we are going to see it again together.<BR>If I was dictator of New Zealand i would make PJ make the Hobbit!

[mark12_30]

Regarding hobbit-clothes and suspenders: I'm guessing that in the scriptwriters' minds, by the time Sam gets to Frodo, Frodo's mithril shirt is gone but his clothes (shirt and suspenders) are still in a rumpled pile in the corner where the orcs were fussing over them. The mithril shirt was the big deal, in their mind. Frodo didn't collect any lembas-peices off the floor, and all that... <P>Non-canonical, I know.

[Theron Bugtussle]

<B>Hilde Bracegirdle</B>, I know what you mean, and at minimum, confirm your right to hold a minority opinion. Expressing how I felt about PJ and his 'improvements' over Tolkien affecting my viewing of this movie (See the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002528" TARGET=_blank>Movies Forum official RotK Frodo thread</A>), I can see how strongly people can be affected by the movie interpretation.

[Firefoot]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Amen to Saucepan Man's post! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My thoughts exactly. I thought this was an excellent movie - much better than FotR or TTT. The changes they made in RotK didn't seem to be as major because the movie on the whole was so good. The emotion was so real and compelling. I was in absolute awe of this movie.<P>Some complaints:<P>Where were the Dunedain?? That was one of my favorite parts in the book!<P>The Mouth of Sauron. They could have done this part so well and I'm not sure why they took it out! They better put it in the EE.<P>Everything was too close together. Especially in Mordor and from Osgiliath to Minas Tirith.<P>Gimli was too, well, funny. I was rather annoyed that he is used for comic relief.<P>When Frodo wakes up it was incredibly cheesy, I thought. Sort of like in Rivendell when Frodo wakes up.<P>Favorite parts:<P>Pelennor Fields. This was amazing!<P>Sam - Sean did an excellent job!!<P>The Eagles.<P>Pippin's song and everything else about Pippin.<P>Sammath Naur.<P>The Rohirrim and Theoden's speech. <P>Eowyn and the Witch King.<P>Just about everything else about the movie was amazing too. I was so surprised. It didn't seem like the same director could have done this movie.<P>Looking at everyone else's posts our theater group was completely unresponsive!! No one clapped except for my cousin and I. No one cheered or anything!

[HCIsland]

First post here about the film, though I have seen it twice now.<P>I wonder if others found this, but I had the same experience with Towers that, despite my best efforts, I spend the whole movie anticipating how they will handle and upcoming sequence that I don't end up just letting the film do it's magic. I had the opportunity to see it again the next night by volunteering as a chaperone for a birthday party my two sons were invited to. Man, that worked well. <P>Both times I left the film shell-shocked and I completely agree with others that I have never been to a 3 hour and 20 minute film that felt rushed. It was incredible. I know there are aspects that were removed that we all would have rather seen in the film - Saruman, Denethor and the palantir, Gandalf and the Witch-king, Faramir and Eowyn - but I just can't imagine how more could be stuffed into this movie without it being completely overburdened.<P>I expected scenes like Frodo and Sam on the side of Mount Doom and Grey Havens, but the shot that got tears rolling down my checks was when everyone bowed before the hobbits. Damn you PJ, you caught me of guard with that one. <P>It's been a while since I've been here last - I ducked out when the spoilers started coming in a little too fast and furious for me. It's good to be back.<P>H.C.

[Tintalle]

I got so lucky that I had the chance to watch it twice via advance screening (in my country it'll show on Jan. 9th!!). So what can I say???<P>IT WAS AWESOME! Everything about it! Even with the diversions from the book and loss of some parts of it, I say it's still the best movie/trilogy ever made. (There was a review I read hours ago comparing Godfather and Rings ... and they insist the Godfather is the best trilogy. My answer would be there is no basis for comparison, and of course, Rings is the BEST!)<P>Normally as a book lover, I would nitpick on details ... but I think Peter Jackson, cast and crew deserve credit. After all I wouldn't have seen Middle Earth in film if they didn't take that bold step (adapting a well loved/revered, so detailed book into film)'cuz we have to admit the task was daunting (and dangerous - he's dealing with rabid fans like me here !). I'm pretty happy with the quality on how the film was made. After all there's still the Extended DVD version to look forward to. <P>So I say kudos to everyone involved in this project for being very visionary!!! <p>[ 12:43 PM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tintalle ]

[Thulorongil]

Return of the King was an amazing movie and a fine interpretation of the book, despite all the problems I have with it. <P> <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The beacons!! The entire breathtaking sequence through the mountains with equally breathtaking music. Howard Shore has once again outdone himself!<BR><LI>I think that John Noble did an excellent job as Denethor. Faramir's mission, its accompanying song, and the events that led up to it were very sad, and retained the emotion of the original story.<BR><LI>"Go home, Sam." One of the few scenes in a movie that leaves me close to tears. Gollum's "sneaking" is well done, as is Frodo's slowly siding with him. Once again, Sean Astin plays an excellent Samwise and really makes the whole movie!<BR><LI>I was very worried about the Paths of the Dead when I realized that Peter Jackson would most likely show scenes inside of them. I must admit, though, that he did a good job. I don't think that Aragorn really should have tried to strangle a ghost and as someone said before, there was "the green virus," but the rest made up for it. Just the little details like the dead king's changing face; first you see his expression and then it looks like a skull, and you aren't sure which one you're really seeing.<BR><LI>The Grey Havens was beautiful and another tear-jerking moment. Annie Lenox's "Into the West" is wonderful, as well.<BR><LI>We got to see Bilbo again! I don't know what I was thinking, as there had to be a Grey Havens scene, and Bilbo has to go to the Grey Havens, but for some reason I wasn't expecting him back. His asking Frodo if he could see his old ring again was a good moment, too. Ian Holm's great.<BR><LI>Shelob was awesome! I must have had a little senior moment when I invited my two arachnophobic friends to come see RotK with me! Oh well, the expression on their faces and the bruises on their hands from gripping the seat are just more evidence that She was well done, from her realistic body, to the disturbing tunnel, to Frodo's gruesome face afterwards.<BR><LI>All the scenery in this film was spectacular. I am very pleased that they recruited Alan Lee; he's one of my favorite Tolkien artists. Everyone at Weta, Amin mela lle!<BR></UL>There are so many other things, also, but alas, there are not enough hours in the day!<P>Of course, I did have many problems with the movie, too.<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Théoden's death was not sad enough! If I was sobbing when I read it, I should have been at least in tears in the theater. I think what happened was that there wasn't enough Merry involvement. In the movie it barely seemed like he did anything to defeat the Witch King, and he never even pledged himself to Théoden. Peter Jackson should have at least put in, "Tell me of the Shire." I am eagerly awaiting the Extended Edition, as I've seen a spoiler pic of Merry kneeling before the king.<BR><LI>Why was Arwen's life bound to the ring??!! I vexed everyone around me by bursting out laughing after that line! Just, why?!<BR><LI>The Witch King's new fashion accessory, that weird mask/crown thing must have affected his thought process. One would think that he'd see the hobbits when he flew right over them! Can't he always sense when the ring is near? Also, what were Sam and Frodo thinking, stopping to rest and watch the gigantic army march past? I know that we need to see how scary and big the army was, but please...<BR><LI>All I have to say is, "A diversion!" Hmm, ya think?<BR><LI>Did Déagol really need to be pulled along through the water by that fish? I understand him falling out of the boat to see the ring, but was that whole bit of getting tugged along necessary?<BR><LI>Denethor really should have just died the way he did in the book, instead of running off the cliff. You'd think that it would be kind of tough to run that whole distance while your body's on fire.<BR><LI>I was upset that we didn't get to see the planting of the sapling of the White Tree! Once again, eagerly awaiting the EE.<BR><LI>I was hoping that at least one of the three movies wouldn't have Gimli as just comic relief. Alas. At least it wasn't as bad as it was in Two Towers.<BR><LI>I was also waiting for Gandalf to battle the Witch King. It didn't seem like he did enough in the movie, other than order a bunch of soldiers around.<BR><LI>Sauron was disappointing, too. I thought that the filmmakers did such a good job with him in the first two movies, that it would stay just as good in the movie that focuses on him. The Eye is not his whole being! Why did it look around and look confused as the tower was collapsing? And the whole spotlightish thing was dumb. [You stole my idea, Arcuwen!] I had said to Arcuwen and my arachnophobic friends that it reminded me of the setup of a video game. Avoid the beam of light or you lose a life! It wasn't really the menacing and powerful evil being that he should have been. <BR></UL><P>I'm sure I'll be back after thinking of more and seeing it for my third and fourth times!<p>[ 6:25 PM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Thulorongil ]

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

I saw the movie last night, and i know it's been said a lot, but that movie was incredible. Stunning. During the charge of the Riders of Rohan i just sat there with my mouth wide open and a huge grin on my face. Personally i'm not worried about most of the stuff left out because it will probably be on the EE, but the only things i have problems with, is the absence of the raising of the shire, and how the men of gondor just got the crap kicked out of them at Osgiliath. Overall 11 out of 10. Just have to keep holding my breath until EE.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why was Arwen's life bound to the ring??!! I vexed everyone around me by bursting out laughing after that line! Just, why?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Although I didn't laugh (or felt like it) this part was confusing to me as well, and seemingly unneccessary. I think having Arwen make her choice (Tolkien was always a little vague on how this process worked anyway) was fine as it locks her down to Middle Earth, but wouldn't that alone accomplish the motivations necessary for Elrond and Aragorn, as now her fate is the same as everyone else who cannot cross the sea?<P>I was wondering if somehow this plays into Aragorn looking into the palantir. I know this scene was cut, but I had read that Aragorn was to look into the palantir and see Arwen dieing (in fact I think the Aragorn's dream sequence was this material reshuffled). We know that it cannot show things that are not true, so perhaps the idea was Sauron would show Aragorn this unnerving image (and it would be, considering he thinks she is safely on her way by now) before Aragorn is able to master the seeing stone and challenge the Dark Lord.<P>I don't know.<P>Speaking of Arwen, did anyone else find the scene of her seeing her son incredible. When I first saw the group of elves in the forest I thought, "okay, here we get the lame reason why Arwen has to go back." Then wham, he hits us with that emotionally charged image. I thought it was brilliant.<P>H.C.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I never cry in films.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Same here. And I nearly did in this one. <P> A few highs, lows, & in-betweens for me:<P> Highs:<P>*The great shot of Minas Tirith from above as Gandalf & Pippin near the top.<P>*Definitly the lighting of the beacons (one of my favorite parts)<P>*Shelob (could've been better [or maybe worse is the word?], but she was good enough [or bad enough...]<P>*The Witch-King (helmet & mace were sweet), & Minas Morgul.<P>*The new death scene for Gollum. I think to have him fall over the edge while celebrating would've made it look rather cheesy in the the movie. Although I'm quite glad he didn't have Frodo push him in !<BR> <BR>*"Well, I'm home." (or 'I'm back, I can't remember ) I was SO glad they put that in there...<P>*The Harbor scene . Especially the shot of Frodo smiling .<P>* Others will be posted later <P> In-Betweens:<P>* Sam hearing Gollum's <I>murder</I> plans.<P>* Denethor pigging out while Faramir rides on his suicide mission (this one is closer to the high list than the low list ).<P>* The Eagles basically beating up on the winged beasts (a little more even, perhaps?)<P>* More will be posted later...<P> Lows (I have plenty, but they'll be posted once I've got plenty of time):

[Lathriel]

A lot of you people are saying that Minas Tirith and Osgiliath were too close together but I checked a map I have in the illustrated LOTR version.(That one has to be accurate) And I figured that the distance was at least 10 miles in between the two cities. So Osgiliath and Minas Tirith aren't that far appart.

The Battle for the Pelannor Fields was very nice. I was marching in my seat as the hosts of Mordor approached the city.<P>I could hear myself chanting "Grond! Grond!" - It was Glorious.<P>The Morgul Lord was so much more than I expected. I've wondered for years what it would be like to SEE him and not just imagine it. <P>And when the Morgul Host issued forth from Minas Morgul? Wow! (only I wish they were more regimented and orderly - like the Uruks or the Southrons in TTT.<P>I'm so grateful to have lived to see Tolkien's masterpiece done RIGHT on film. When you think about the movie, "Willow", you'll understand what I mean. <P>I've been obsessed with Middle Earth for over 20 years. To see it all come alive on screen is something I cannot put into words.<P>Thanks to Peter jackson et al! And thanks to Professor Tolkien!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm guessing that in the scriptwriters' minds, by the time Sam gets to Frodo, Frodo's mithril shirt is gone but his clothes (shirt and suspenders) are still in a rumpled pile in the corner where the orcs were fussing over them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I'm forgetting the the average movie goer isn't fidgeting in their seat going "What are you doing?! You're going to need those smelly nasty orc clothes when all those orc troops pass by and you are trying to hide from them!" Of course they must have simply ditched them.<P><B>Theron Bugtussle</B> Thanks for the link. I can see why a few alterations might have been considered for the movies, some just change the characters entirely, don't they? I'm thinking of Gandalf's speech in FoTR, something like "I must go and speak with Saruman the head of my order, he is both wise and ...." Tolkien was so good about letting us know that Gandalf gave nothing away, and acted quite independently.

[The Only Real Estel]

Cont. from above post:<P>Lows: <P>*Frodo telling Sam to leave.<BR> Deffinitly my least favorite part of the movie, Frodo & Sam always stuck together in the books, & that was one of the great things about the books, & the movies pretty well disrupted that.<P>*Gandalf 'throwing' Denethor back onto the pyre.<P>*What dignity there was in Denethor's death scene being sacrificed for a chance to spectacularize it.<P>*Arwen's life being tied to the Ring. <BR>It was just a ridiculous side-plot, again, trying to create extra suspense when none was needed.<P>*Everything had to be rushed along (except for the battle), & you could really tell in spots where they where trying to cram this in, rush along to this, find a quick bit of time for that, etc. That's the evils of having to move Shelob & Minas Morgul to RotK, even if it did 'fit the timeline' better. Imagine how squashed everything would've been had they attempted to get the Wizard Confrontation in there as well ! Not to say that I wouldn't have liked to see it .<P>*The special effects left some to be desired on occasion, but for the most part they were pretty good.<P>*The cutting of the Wizard Confrontation...<P>*The cutting of the Houses of Healing.<BR> Seriously, Eowyn & Faramir hook up seemingly with next to no contact, & Merry seems to suffer absolutly no ill-effects or gets any credit for saving Eowyn.<P> That's all I have time for for now... .<p>[ 5:41 PM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I am glad they didn't have Aragorn or Gandalf fight Sauron though. <P>If they had put that in, the entire film would have been ruined for me. As it is, I really enjoyed the film. Having said that, I do think it could have been a lot better. Just to avoid accusations of being over-critical of the film. I know I have been quite negative about it in the other threads, but I did really enjoy it.

[Ughósh the Abominable]

See, I went *expecting* to cry...but was disappointed. I suppose I have only my self to blame; I got my expectations way higher up than I suppose they reasonably should have been.<P>Many of the scenes that should have been really dramatic - dramatic enough to make me cry - simply weren't, or were melodramatic, leaving me saying "OK, PJ, you don't have to shove it in my face, I get that it's supposed to be dramatic." Some scenes that I thought defined the book - such as the part where Aragorn unfirls his banner on the mast of the Corsair ship as his forces are sailing up Anduin - simply weren't there, while others - such as Sam being "kicked out" of the Gollum-Frodo-Sam trio, only to come back a couple scenes later - I thought totally unnecessary, just as the part where Aragorn falls off the cliff in Two Towers was unnecessary; it's all the same thing: Peter Jackson thinking the movie isn't dramatic enough, and trying to pack artificial drama in so modern audiences, used to soap-operas, don't get bored. Frankly I think he would've been a lot wiser to forget the weird new scenes and use the time saved to enable him to leave in scenes he actually had to cut for the theatre release - like, for instance, the encounter with Saruman. Cutting Frodo's "Go home, Sam" speech and replacing it with the Saruman scene would have made the movie as a whole drastically better for me, personally.<P>There were scenes I thought excellent. The death of the Witch-King was straight from the book; that was one part I always loved, and I was delighted to no end when I saw it so perfectly represented on screen. Everything from Shelob on in the Frodo-Sam-Gollum storyline was excellent.<P>But now we come to Minas Tirith. In my considered opinion, this entire battle sequence was awe-inspiring - until Aragorn showed up. The Dead Army, instead of playing the minor (yet vital) role they did in the book, instead took all desperation and drama from the Battle of Pelennor Field as soon as they arrived in the movie version. That battle was supposed to be a struggle to the bitter end; Aragorn's arrival in the book was a clear turning of the tide, yet even so, the battle was fought for the rest of the day, and it was clear by the end of it that victory had been by the barest of margins; this is important, because it makes clear to the reader that though Men have turned back the tide *this* time, the will not be able to do so again. But since the Dead take part in the movie version, it looses that desperation; it looses its ability to affect me emotionally. It makes the battle look like cake; it makes Sauron look impotent, and it gives the War of the Ring a feel of certain victory for Men. True, the Dead are dismissed immediately afterward; but they do so only *after* leaving the most emotionally affecting battle of the entire book trilogy completely bereft of drama. I should have cried right there in the theatre. Instead I found myself shaking my head and laughing sardonically.<P>Furthermore: why was Pelennor Fields fought in what looked like total daylight? In the book, the battle in the sky between Sauron's darkness and the morning light peeking through before the wind from the South is clearly a reflection of the raging tide of the battle on the field itself, and therefore gives the entire conflagration what can only be called supernatural significance, and therefore furthers this scene's emotional potency. Yet this element seems entirely absent from the film. I understand this may have been difficult to do cinematically; but still, I think if PJ had taken just a bit of extra effort to attempt this affect, I would be much happier.<P>Finally: why does the ROTK movie make it seem as if everything in Middle-Earth is about a brisk 5-minute walk from everything else? In one scene we see Aragorn proposing his plan to march on the Black Gate; a snap of the fingers, and he's there, all gussied up, with an army at his back. What? I'm not saying PJ should show the journey in real-time; I'm saying he could at least through in some scenes of chit-chat between the commanders or major characters who are making the journey, as with the journey from Edoras to Helm's Deep in Two Towers. Or maybe PJ could just show a travel-montage like he did in much of Fellowship, when the characters are travelling long distances and it just shows them from an aerial view with a nice angle on the surrounding landscape. That could be really sweet when it's an army marching to battle. I'm hoping that something like the above will maybe be in the Extended Ed.<P>There's all kinds of other things I didn't see that I was expecting too; but I'm not worried to much, because there are *so* many places in the theatre release where it's painfully obvious they cut stuff to make the film short enough; that means that much of the stuff I'm looking for is no doubt in the Extended Ed. Things like the White Tree's rejuvination, the Wild Men of the Woods, Aragorn's attack on Pelargir, and Faramir and Eowyn's rendezvous.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Furthermore: why was Pelennor Fields fought in what looked like total daylight? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe it's to increase what little visibility there is during battle scenes ? Really though, I was kind've disappointed in the lack of being able to see much of anything. In FotR & TTT they made sure the camera moved enough, but in RotK it really peaked out. I understand that he wanted to do this to keep the movie at PG-13, but having battle scenes that practically make you dizzy might not be the answer (FotR & TTT were bordering dizziness already )...

[BoromirsBeard]

RotK... Good!<P>Smeagol transforming with dodgy makeup and latex into Gollum... Bad!<P>Minas Tirith... Good!<P>Lighting the beacons... Good!<P>Can't even tell which battle you're in because they're all so close together... Bad!<P>Denethor eating/ Pippin singing/ Faramir on a suicide mission... Good!<P>Denethor pouring petrol on his head... Good!<P>Reforging sword... Good!<P>Sending Elrond instead of introducing his sons... Fair enough!<P>Spooky dead warriors... Good!<P>No houses of healing... Bad!<P>Sam being framed with Lembas crumbs... Good! (but why didn't he EAT IT when he found it again? hehehe)<P>Frodo's face when he says the ring is his... Good!<P>Aragorn's coronation... Good!<P>Aragorn trying to give grand speeches in his somewhat high-pitched voice... Oh well!<P>Really ugly Bilbo... Bad!<P>Really ugly Bilbo asking about the ring... Good!<P>Kinda small silly-looking ship with no-one on board, just Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel waiting... Bad!<P>Repeat: RotK... Good!

[Arwen Imladris]

Overall, it was great. I think that it may just replace FOTR as the best movie ever. <P>What I hate: The palantir scene with Pippin, The Pyre scene, bits of the diologe by Legolas and Aragorn, Minas Morgul - What the pie is with the crazy green light?<P>What I can learn to deal with: The Mumakil stunt with Legolas, The Sam-Frodo-Gollum-Shelob story plot changes, the lack of rangers, the lack of Elladan and Ellrohir.<P>What I loved: Frodo's transformation, Sam hero moments, the grey havens, Arwen + Elrond reactions, Aragorns speech at the black gate

[Catlyn21]

There are no words to describe how good it was... The only things I missed were Eowyn and Faramir getting together (i told everyone around me in the theater about that, lol) and that it doesn't really clear up the end with Legolas and Gimli (yes, i am one of those Legolas fangirls! oh, I'm so ashamed of myself...) <P>Thank you Peter Jackson!

[Everdawn]

As a movie fan, i loved it! As a book fan, im not so sure. <P>Prince Imrahil was next to Éomer in my fave Characters and i really would have loved to see "Amroth for Gondor! Amroth to Faramir!" and the Lord of Dol Amroth riding out of the city, oh darn it, i imagined it in my mind all the same, and let me tell you, what i saw was amazing. I really thought they could have had Imrahil there to heighten the notion that Denethor lost his mind and the city was trusted tot he keeping of the Prince.<P>And i owuld have loved to see Beregond and the romance between Éowyn and Faramir but to a lesser degree of Imrahil.<P>I would have appreciated more Karl Urban though, he was in it for such a short time.

[dragoneyes]

Before I say anything, I must express my utmost amazement at Shelob. The silence before she struck was truely that: silence. Not one person in our tiny little cinema ate, drank or even moved, everyone's breath was held. Then she stabbed him and there was a collective "ooh!" and I've never heard such a reaction from a cinema audience around here. But then we had Elijah's reaction face (frothing or no frothing?) which I felt was a fraction too long. One more thing: was I meant to feel sorry for Shelob when Sam stabbed her? She made the sweetest little whining noises that just made me lose all emnity for her, she is only trying to eat.<P>Now, what to start with? I was pleased with all of the actors and their acting, even if Elijah had the camera on him for that little bit too long a few times. I didn't cry, but that was to be expected as I never do.<P>Be warned that I shall probably concentrate on the bad things as those are the things that leap out at me most.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the movie left me a bit cold, as if it happened in a parallel universe to the book <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That was very much the same for me, I couldn't quite explain it to my friend but it was something like that.<P>Billy's face started to annoy me, but I've had that against him ever since I read the book and saw the movie again, he just doesn't have the face of a Pippin. I'm weird like that and just tried to ignore it while I was watching.<P>I liked Pippin pledging to Denethor (though Merry could have done with one) because it showed a shadow of a different Denethor, smiling as Pippin muddled his way through the lines. Of course the feel soon changed and he just became downright evil but in that short moment he was a real human being.<P>I was sitting in my seat hoping against hope that they wouldn't fire the heads over the walls, it was the one thing that I wouldn't have minded too much being omitted from the book because I can't stand dead bodies, I was cringing away from Frodo when he was "dead". But as soon as that orc mentioned the "present" and then went on to tell the others to load the catapaults I knew it was coming. It's not a complaint, I'm glad they put it in, but it was really horrid.<P>Like many others here, I could have done without the roving eye of Sauron across the plains of Mordor, though it was pretty cool when Frodo was caught in the light (why he wasn't seen is beyond me).<P>The Arwen and the ring thing pushed me to ask my friend next to me if she knew anything more about it, we were both confused, and it seemed pointless as it wasn't mentioned again, which is a good thing.<P>Sammath Naur was dangerously close to being funny with Gollum on an invisible Frodo's back, but it managed to pull it off. Frodo falling off the edge, however, and having to be pulled up again was getting a little cliche (and how do you get a good grip on a blood drenched hand?). Frodo's pure evil smirk at Sam when he claimed the ring was pure genius, loved it.<P>Unfortunately, there are the parts that are painfully and obviously missing, they have all been mentioned here so I feel I need not say anything more about them.<P>Last thing, there are probably many more but I have the worst memory, there was too much light. I was happy for them to have light on Pellenor fields because I could see how that would be ridiculous in darkness, but Shelobs lair could have easily been darker, when he got out Galadriel's phial, I really didn't see the point as, truth be told, it didn't make too much difference.<P>Well, that's me done. No wait, the "green virus" bugged me too, how ironic that at the end they decided to skip on the green and have the yellow door of #3 <P>That's me done.<p>[ 4:56 PM December 29, 2003: Message edited by: dragoneyes ]

[Theron Bugtussle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><B>dragoneyes</B>: I could have done without the roving eye of Sauron across the plains of Mordor, though it was pretty cool when Frodo was caught in the light (why he wasn't seen is beyond me).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why he wasn't seen is obvious--the beam of light was a special effect. Heh, heh! <P>The <I>real</I> Sauron would never let his gaze be reduced to a cheap, visible effect, or his minions would know when he was not looking at them, and might be tempted to slack off in their badness.