gondors armies vs. rohans

[dwarfguard]

has anyone noticed in the movies pj portrays rohans armies as far superior in both size and skill than gondors armies?its obvious gondor was larger and a bigger force than rohan in the books.

[The Only Real Estel]

Welcome to the Barrowdowns, dwarfguard. It did seem like the Rohirrim were superior to Gondor, but I'm pretty sure there are several different good threads on this already. This one for sure, at least.

[dwarfguard]

thats a good thread, but i'm really referring to the sizes.Theoden said he had 6,000 spears, but even faramirs company was probably 200 to 300 at the most.Even Gandalf in the movie asked Denethor"where are gondors armies"?

[Gurthang]

When Gandalf asked "Where are Gondor's armies?" I think he was questioning why they were not on the front. It seemed that Denethor had not sent nearly enough troops to hold Osgiliath. Most of them were probably kept in the city, where they were useless. So Gandalf was really saying "Why are your soldiers hiding in Minas Tirith when that's not where the battle is?"

[Boromir88]

When Gandalf asked "Where are Gondor's armies?" I think he was questioning why they were not on the front. It seemed that Denethor had not sent nearly enough troops to hold Osgiliath. Most of them were probably kept in the city, where they were useless. So Gandalf was really saying "Why are your soldiers hiding in Minas Tirith when that's not where the battle is?"

I thought of it as totally different. The wonderful section in "Minas Tirith" we see all of Gondor's armies from the outer regions coming in for the defense of the city. I thought of Gandalf's saying as Denethor didn't send out word to come to Minas Tirith and make a stand, basically Gandalf saying "Denethor why didn't you send word for men to come in and fight..." Because right after this Gandalf says "Send word to Theoden of Rohan. You still have friends...etc"

[King of the North]

I too really noticed that PJ portrayed Rohan's soldiers as much better fighters than Gondorian warriors. At Helm's Deep Rohan's soldiers put forth their best effort and fought their hardest. The Uruk-Hai only triumphed by shear weight of numbers. It is common for people to fight their hardest when they are in their homeland defending their very existence, a great example in our own world was Berlin 1945.

But if that is the case then it did not apply to Gondor's soldiers. In both Osgiliath and Minas Tirith Gondorian soldiers get totally wamped on by orcs. There are two explanations for why this is. 1st being that Rohan was fighting Uruk-Hai and even though they are incredibly strong, I believe PJ intended for the new orcs in RotK to be even stronger. Therefore both Rohan's and Gondor's armies could be equal in fighting ability, but their foes' skills different. The 2nd possible explanation does not have anything to do with fighting abilities. Throughout FotR and TTT the orcs and uruk-hai get totally pwnzored. Perhaps PJ got tired of the consistent annihilation of the bad guys in the previous two movies and wanted the good guys to die for once. The first time I saw RotK I was kinda glad to see the good guys get wasted for a change. Also, that helped increase the suspense in the last chapter of the sage for those non-readers who had doubts about whether or not Gondor was going to win the war. Even the seemingly invicible Rohan cavalry gets butchered up a bit by the Mumakil. Whenever Rohan charges a field it must use hax or something cuz they are unstoppable. All in all, there is a lot more good guy death in RotK and since Gondor takes the brunt of the action and Rohan does not, Gondor might look like a worse fighting force.

[Lolidir]

Now that you point this out. The first thing that comes to my mind is that the uruk-hai that fought at Helm's Deep were from Saruman, and the ones from Gondor were mostly if not entirely from Mordor, made by Sauron (undoubtedly the more evil of the two). So in that respect the races of uruk-hai were different. Like that of the world today. The way they were made, or brought about and what was put into them. Bigger and stronger, meaner - possibly but the book doesnt really say.

Now as for which army was stronger and what not, I think is a bit of an unfair statement to make. You had the Rohirrim who all had horses, basically, and from there they had the long spears and it is much harder to kill a man on a horse with a spear than a man with a sword right in front of you.

As for fighting in dire need. In Rohan they had Aragorn, and he sparked that light of hope, if you can recall in the movie when they are in the armory and Aragorn and Legolas have the "heated discussion" and in which Legolas see that a false hope is better than no hope. Even Theoden recognizes that he didnt lead Rohan to victory but it was Aragorn. In Gondor there was Gandalf, but he was no Aragorn. The people had lived to long in fear and no one to lead them. At least in Rohan there was Eomer. The people in Gondor looked out the window and saw the vast number of uruk-hai and other enemies and lost all hope. No matter what you say Gandalf was no king, he was no Aragorn. Even if he did Gondor still didnt have Denethor behind it, and too have someone come in and try to do good without the help of the ruler just doesnt work as well as if you have both working for good as Aragor and Theoden did.

[Boromir88]

I think you could compare the two armies, it may be a little uneven, with Rohan mainly being Cavalry, and Gondor mainly being heavy infantry. I would argue that Imrahil's Knights of Dol Amroth were possibly the best Cavalry unit in LOTR (aren't afraid of the Nazgul), but since they didn't appear in the movie it doesn't make a difference...

Since their fighting styles are also different, I think it's going to come down to leadership, and depending upon the time, is who had the better leadership...Starting in TTT the advantage goes to Rohan, they have Theoden, Theodred, Eomer, and Gamling...Gondor has Denethor and Faramir (and Faramir's little buddy that follows him around). Darn...I wish Imrahil was in the movie...But once the Ring is destroyed, I'll give the advantage to Gondor..Now they have the newly acquired Aragorn, and Rohan lost their good leaders (excluding Eomer).

No matter what you say Gandalf was no king, he was no Aragorn. even if he did Gondor still didnt have Denethor behind it all, and too have someone come in and try to do good without the help of the ruler just doesnt work as well

Gandalf was as much as a capable leader as Aragorn, if not better. Remember it's Gandalf's duty to unite the people of middle-earth and aid them in combatting Sauron...

So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defense of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory.

I think this holds true even within the movies context, Denethor is even worse than he is in the book, and Gandalf does all the commanding. You see men following him, listening to him, and giving pep talks.

[Lolidir]

Originally Posted by Lolidir

In Gondor there was Gandalf, but he was no Aragorn. The people had lived to long in fear and no one to lead them. No matter what you say Gandalf was no king, he was no Aragorn. Even if he did Gondor still didnt have Denethor behind it, and too have someone come in and try to do good without the help of the ruler just doesnt work as well as if you have both working for good as Aragor and Theoden did.

i forgot about Gandalf uniting the peoples of ME. My point was that the people didnt have a leader that they knew, and were really comfortable with. If Aragorn had arrived before the battle and became king and established an ansolute power and given the people a sence of that leadersip, they might have been more willing to fight. Even though Gandalf was a famous wizard (Istari) and everyone knew who he was, they didnt know him. He came in, out of no where and tried to take over. While he was better than Denethor, i just dont think that they would have just left Denethor and followed Gandalf, especially when he was so openly opposing Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Gandalf was as much as a capable leader as Aragorn, if not better.

This is true, but every leader has to have time to gain the trust and respect of the followers. If someone came into your work, school, or what ever and just took over, they might be the better leader, but only time will let you see that. And as we know time was not on Gondor's side.

[Boromir88]

This is true, but every leader has to have time to gain the trust and respect of the followers. If someone came into your work, school, or what ever and just took over, they might be the better leader, but only time will let you see that. And as we know time was not on Gondor's side.

Good point

If Aragorn had arrived before the battle and became king and established an ansolute power and given the people a sence of that leadersip, they might have been more willing to fight. Even though Gandalf was a famous wizard (Istari) and everyone knew who he was, they didnt know him. He came in, out of no where and tried to take over.

The thing I don't understand, and perhaps you could explain a little better, is how would the Gondorians accept Aragorn and not Gandalf? Gandalf did arrive out of nowhere, and perhaps they didn't quite trust him. But how would it be different if Aragorn arrived out of nowhere? He wasn't well known in Gondor either. Also, certainly Denethor wouldn't allow Aragorn to barge in and claim the throne without starting resistance. And considering that they are still willing to listen to him when he says "burn my son and me," I would think Aragorn would have a tough time.

[Lolidir]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But how would it be different if Aragorn arrived out of nowhere? He wasn't well known in Gondor either.

This is a good point. I guess my reasoning for this is the fact that Aragorn was the rightful King and ruler of Gondor, as where Gandalf wasn't. He was just someone who had power and took control. Aragorn would have had to have been listened to, in some sort of way for he was the king. I am thinking that maybe it would encourage the people to see their bad leader overthrown by the rightful good one.

But then again the people didn't know him any better, if not less than Gandalf. And if you wanted to you could bring in the fact that every one reacts differently to a different situation. But the best thing I can think of is today's military. The military today is mostly Bush supporters. (I dont mean to offend any one on their political parties it's just an example) They fight because they love their country and they love their leader. I am sure that in those times it was the same thing. The people may have been forced to fight, but they would fight better for a leader they loved and respected.

[Boromir88]

This is a good point. I guess my reasoning for this is the fact that Aragorn was the rightful King and ruler of Gondor, as where Gandalf wasn't.

Very true, and within the movies I think this works. Denethor is portrayed a lot worse and it seems like nobody cares that Gandalf smacks around the Steward, maybe they were just tired of the man...

An important point though that has been discussed before, as seen in Arvedui's claim and Aragorn's decisions, that it takes more than "right" to become King. One must have the support of the people, in which it seemed Aragorn did. The movies I think show this a little differently, that they were just tired of Denethor and wanted the true King. Where the books deal with it in a bit different way, Aragorn must prove himself to the people, (being victorious at the Morannon) to get the support of Gondor.

[Lolidir]

You are right when you say that the way that things are portrayed is different between the books and movie.

Actually i think its covered pretty nicely in Aragorn's decisions from what I read. In the movie they leave out that whole part with Imrahil and the House of Healing. I think that part really helped gain the respect and trust of the people. Through that whole time between the battle at Pelennor Fields and the time when they march on the Black Gate Aragorn refuses to enter the city as the king. He is recognized as the Captain of the Dunedain of Arnor for the time being and remains in a tent outside the city. So when they (Aragorn, Gandalf, Imrahil, Eomer) lead the armies against the Black Gate and they are victorious, and he is finally revealed to them as Aragorn, the rightful king, they realize that this guy that they trusted in battle, as a result of his skill, is going to be their king. So by the time he actually take the thrown the people know that he can be a leader because of how he lead them to victory over Sauron, and then they are more willing to accept him.

I asked and we can continue to compare this to the books as long as it doesnt turn into just a book discussion.

[Imrahil]

It did seem that Rohan's army was vastly superior in size and skill than that of Gondor...Maybe PJ made it that way to emphasize that the power and grandeur of Gondor had slipped from what it had been.

I agree.
Well i like Rohan a lot better than gondor though but its seems strange that Rohans army should outnumber Gondors.
But i believe the Rohirrim are one of the most skilled armies in middle earth.
well thats my opinion though.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Denethor is portrayed a lot worse

Yes, Movie!Denethor was kind of messed up. I've posted this on another thread, too, I don't remember which, but that conception of the Rohirrim being much more powerful than the Gondorians (in the movie) might be due to the fact that their leaders were such foils on one another. Theoden was rather heroic, and led his calvary fantastically on the Pelennor, where PJ had the Steward of Gondor screaming, "Abandon your posts! Flee for your lives!" However entertaining that may have been, it did nothing for the audience's confidence in the Gondorian army.

[Gil-Galad]

well Gondor should be the most skilled because of its heritage, most traditional at that fact, Rohan maybe pretty strong...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I believe the movie Rohannic military superiority is just PJ's change.
In the books somewhere I think one of the hobbits, upon reaching Gondor, is struck by how much more impresive Gondorian warriors are in comparison to Rohannic.

And I believe the bulk of the army of the west that went to Mordor was
comprised of Gondorians, with (500 mounted and 500 infantry Rohan fighters).

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

well Gondor should be the most skilled because of its heritage, most traditional at that fact,

Agreed. The movie could have depicted the typical Gondorian man-at-arms to be a skillful swordsman dispatching many foes with fluid yet powerful hacks, slashes and thrusts before being overwhelmed by superior numbers of the enemies - have them all end up as pin cushions before being cut down by orcish marauders.

[Gil-Galad]

Well not that good, cause remember, Boromir was suppose to be the best of them all, and if in the movies he was shot down by only three arrows, then Gondorians shouldn't be able to stand three arrows...

[Saurreg]

Boromir was unarmoured?

[Gil-Galad]

Its more skill then weaponary...

[Saurreg]

I have no idea what you meant by that. If you're saying the movie Boromir was an inept fighter, that itself is debatable.