Vanyar > Noldor?

[Iarhen]

Im sorry, but I have to disagree with you in several points:

1. I can not tell whos the greatest elf tribe. Vanyer where the greates in arts. Noldor in crafts, etc. But you can not say that the Noldor were not as good as the Vanyar just because they followed the rules strictly. They loved and they felt more than the Vanyar did. Thats why they went to war. Morgoth had killed the High King of the Noldor. Morgoth had stolen their silmarils (very appreciated jewels after the darkening of Valinor). So? The Noldor, headless without thier King, went to war to avenge the death of their King and to recover what was theirs in the first place. If the Vanyar were so high in spiritual and intellectual terms, they would have sympathized with the Noldor and would have gone to ME with them to fight Morgoth.

If they are so good, and so benevolent, they must have felt an urge to help their Noldor brothers in disgrace.

But guess what? They DIDN'T!!!! They preffered to stay in Valinor, with the Valar, and save themselves the discomfort. Instead of helping those that were the same kind as them (the noldorin elves) they preffered to stay with gods. And thats a treason that even men knew and hated: thats why the Riders of Rohan helped Gondor. Because they wanted to help their brothers in disgrave before it was too late.

2. Vanyar came because the Valar ordered them to. They were the biggest part of the host of the Valar. But they DID NOT threw down Morgoth. It was the Valar who did it.

If the Vanyar had come, by themselves without no help from the Valar and facing the current disolation and destroying of the Noldor (who were slain), they would have faced the SAME disgrace the Noldor suffered. I would say that even greater, because they are not war people, they can not make their own weapons.

3. And third, possibly the Valar loved the Vanyar more. But I would dare to say that Eru, after men, loved the Noldor the most. Why? Because the Noldor showed something taht the Vanyar did not show: love and worry for their own, their people and the people of M.E. Eru loves more who love more. And in that field, some Noldor even dared to give up their eternal life for love. Something the Vanyar DID NOT DO!!!..

So, in my book and in Middle Earth history, and probably on Eru´s mind, the Noldor are the greatest.

[lindil]

Welcome to the Downs Iarhen!

Im sorry, but I have to disagree with you in several points:

LIkewise. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

1. I can not tell whos the greatest elf tribe. Vanyer where the greates in arts. Noldor in crafts, etc. But you can not say that the Noldor were not as good as the Vanyar just because they followed the rules strictly. They loved and they felt more than the Vanyar did.

Well if you take spiritual obedience and lack of self-will/willfulness as cardinal virtues you can of course say the were 'as good' obviously better. JRRT as a knowledgable and practicing Catholic Christian obviously saw these a crucial qualities.

Your point about their differing specialties is well noted and true as far as it goes. But all qualities are not equal under the sun. Just as JRRT singles out Manwe as temporal and spiritual leader of the Valar [ and with him Varda] so does he also with the Vanyar. Why? because they are closest to the spiiritual ideal. Like it or not, they are the most 'enlightened' [literally as they chose to live closest to the light of Eru as reflected in Manwe and Varda] and least fallen of the Elves.

That's why they went to war. Morgoth had killed the High King of the Noldor. Morgoth had stolen their silmarils (very appreciated jewels after the darkening of Valinor). So? The Noldor, headless without thier King, went to war to avenge the death of their King and to recover what was theirs in the first place. If the Vanyar were so high in spiritual and intellectual terms, they would have sympathized with the Noldor and would have gone to ME with them to fight Morgoth.

Hmm, despite being told it was doomed to failure? despite the regents of God saying 'you are going about it the wrong way'?

Despite the fact that they followed another unrepentant murderer of kin to do it?

The Vanyar, responded with genuine love by not aiding the Noldor in their folly, as indeed Olwe says when asked for his fleet.
The Vanyar waited for the green light from the Valar and struck when the time was right.

No sooner, no later.

If they are so good, and so benevolent, they must have felt an urge to help their Noldor brothers in disgrace.

But guess what? They DIDN'T!!!! They preffered to stay in Valinor, with the Valar, and save themselves the discomfort.Instead of helping those that were the same kind as them (the noldorin elves) they preffered to stay with gods.And thats a treason that even men knew and hated: thats why the Riders of Rohan helped Gondor. Because they wanted to help their brothers in disgrave before it was too late.

Addressed above, but I will also add that JRRT clearly paints the Noldor as in the wrong [despite the great stories that are rightly predicted to flow there from] and as rebellious against rightful Authority, and as we see in the Silmarillion, they are wiped out to the Prince [Gil-galad excepted]! It is a simple case of bad Karma.

Who exactly are the Vanyar to side with as they have 2 sets of 'brothers ' in Aman?

The Teleri who were most fouly robbed and then killed? or the Noldor some of whom did the robbing and killing?

2. Vanyar came because the Valar ordered them to.

I have seen no evidence of that at all. It could be true but there is no evidence that anyone was forced into service.

Of course even among High-Elves [especially one's that were a] given a free ticket home, whether they died or not] b] had to live with each other for ages afterword; you would have 2 very good reasons to go.

They were the biggest part of the host of the Valar. But they DID NOT threw down Morgoth. It was the Valar who did it.

Who says they weer the biggest? We are told [ Valaquenta?] that the Eldar never knew the number of the Maia. You may be right but we do not know.

Your second point, does not seem to work anyway you use it. 'The Vanyar did not throw down Morgoth'.

true - that was not their job. They had already known this as it was told explicitly to the Noldor in the 'prophecy of the North' I believe. They slaughterd Orcs and maybe a Balrog or 2, and perhaps trolls [ if they existed at all in the first age [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]] and maybe a few land bound drakes. The Noldor didn't throw down Morgoth either [although Luthien the non-Noldo did for a few minutes!] and that was the Noldor's express intention! that was clearly Eonwe's job [Tulkas or any of the Valar did not seem to be needed for this one, as we read in HoM-E X that Morgoth had grown far weaker.

So the Noldor score no points on the Vanyar there either way. Neither overcame Morgoth unaided, but at least the Vanyar [ and the tithe of the Noldor that did not persisit in rebellion] where on the winning side of the fianl Battle.

For some unknown reason, NONE of the remaining Noldor [in M-E] are said to have fought in the War of Wrath. That would include Maedhros and Maglor.

hmm... lazy? too tired? not invited or welcomed? we do not know...

But no sooner is the War over than the last Sons of Feanor [and actually I have a soft spot for these 2 but Maedhros should have listened to his younger brother] are up to their old kinslaying tricks!

We do not learn if it was Vanyar or Noldor this time] but if it was Vanyar, they just earned the disitinction of being the only elves to kill other elves of ALL THREE KINDREDS!*

amazing! Surely that House is the greatest due to it's overwhelming sense of Pride, Might in arms!, desire for vengence on anyone who stands between them and 'their precious''things made by hands'.

NB-[deliberate conflation of differing but relevant quotes]


* assuming that the 2 elder sons actually were involved [ and 'successful'] in the fighting at the previous Kinslayings involving first Teleri, then Sindar and fianlly, Noldor, Sindar, mixed Elves and Edain. Maybe they just directed the assault, though to give maedhros a sad form of credit, I do not think he would send other Elves to do his 'Dirty Work'.

If the Vanyar had come, by themselves without no help from the Valar and facing the current disolation and destroying of the Noldor (who were slain), they would have faced the SAME disgrace the Noldor suffered.

Yes, thank you, you have perfectly made my point for me:

the Vanyar were not that stupid!

I would say that even greater, because they are not war people, they can not make their own weapons.

Actually while that may be true that they did not forge their own swords, again we do not know for sure if a few [or more] saw the War coming and prepared in a 'Noldorin' way.

Surely the Vanyar were not the only one's to write poetry? So could not a few of the more testosterone imbued Vanyar have rolled up their sleeves and spent a spare century learning Smith work?

We read in HoME X p. 164, that the Vanyar were the 'spear Elves', just as the Noldor were sword Elves [ made their own] and the Teleri were Axe Elves [ though it is the Sindar who learned from the Dwarves how to make their own, 'These at first the Naugrim smithied for them']. And The green Elves [teleri again] certainly made their own bows and arrows. And I would bet taught the Dwarves this particular bit of war/hunting craft!
But anyway, chances are that a sub-set of Vanyar, made their own spears, but maybe not.

I will end with another quote from the Later Quenta Silmarillion text from HoM-E X p.164

The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-Elves, ...the Holy Elves....

If Holiness and blessedness are to be desired above the wisdom and valour, the noldorin attributes from the same passage [ and I think they are - being qualities of the mature spirit as opposed to the above mentioned wisdom and valour] which I would classify as 'of the soul' and by that meaning as some others do, the intermediate 'body' between the spirit and the flesh.

Of course best to have both, but if you only have holiness, have you not in some essential measure won 'the pearl of great price'?

[ March 01, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Maédhros]

A truly excellent post lindil. But I have to stand up for the Ñoldor.

Hmm, despite being told it was doomed to failure? despite the regents of God saying 'you are going about it the wrong way'?

I think that this makes lots of sense but, so what? I think that for a race to advance, they need challenges. How else could we send a man on the moon, fly, if we not dare do things that seemed impossible to many. I think that the fact that they dared the impossible is worth something. How does someone knows that anyting is impossible if they don't dare and try to do it.

Despite the fact that they followed another unrepentant murderer of kin to do it?

You would need a Fëanor to drive people away from a Paradise.

The Vanyar waited for the green light from the Valar and struck when the time was right.

And the time was right because the Ñoldor waged war on him and kept him occupied.

But no sooner is the War over than the last Sons of Fëanor [and actually I have a soft spot for these 2 but Maedhros should have listened to his younger brother] are up to their old kinslaying tricks!

I have to stand to my namesake. Maedhros gave his word, his word was his bond, he had to follow through to the end. He always, except the first Kinslaying, he gave them a chance to surrender the gems.

If Holiness and blessedness are to be desired above the wisdom and valour, the noldorin attributes from the same passage [ and I think they are - being qualities of the mature spirit as opposed to the above mentioned wisdom and valour] which I would classify as 'of the soul' and by that meaning as some others do, the intermediate 'body' between the spirit and the flesh.

I think that you are right lindil, but I'm a Ñoldor at heart. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Iarhen]

Thanks for the welcoming, Iindil.

Now, again, I'm afraid I disagree with you in several points:

1. I can't tell otherwise about the closeness of the Vanyar to the Valar. But, even though Manwe and VArda reflected Eru's light, they did not sahre the knowledge of Eru. Again, the Vanyar were closest to the Valar, but in terms of Eru's affection, I stand my point (go back to the last paragraphs of my previous post).

2. Even though the Valar told the Noldor that their quest was doomed to failure, the Noldor were in a difficult position. First, how can they trust the Valar after one of them had done so much ill against their kin? Melkor, greatest among the Valar (then), had killed thier King and stolen their greates posessions.

How can you trust someone when other one, of the same kin and nature, had done so much evil against you?

And more to the favour of the Noldor, even though they were warned taht their quest was doomed to failure, they still fought the battle. Stubborness? No. Heroship, more likely. They were risking their lives and their eternal existence, dont forget that.

3. I can't say anything about the murdering of thier kin. But both the Noldor and the Vanyar are guilty of the same sin. In what way? The vanyar knew of the doom of the Noldor, and they didnt do anything. They were guilty in a passive way of the slaugthering of the Noldor. In waht way? Because the Vanyar did not help them when they were most needed, and chose to say with the elf-slayer kin (the VAlar). It's a sin that the Valar themselves committed. Didn't Morgoth kill most of the Noldor kin? Melkor was a Valar. So, in the same way that the Noldor were found guilty of slaying the Teleri when only some of them did it, that's the same way the Valar are guilty. One of the Valar killed the Noldor. So, who's the greatest sinner? The Valar, in their great knowledge, still murdered. The Noldor, in their need, despair and desolation, too. The Vanyar, in a passive way, also. Not an argument you can use.

4. And waiting for the green light is an argument that can be used in the favour of the Vanyar? That sounds more like cowardness.

5. But of the two sets of brothers that the Vanyar had in Aman, it was only one of them, the Noldor, that needed their help.

Do not confuse stupidity with despair, sadness and valianthood.

6. And maybe the Noldor should have chosen the blessing you speak of in the end of your post, but it was a blessing of the Valar. Probably, unknowingly, the Noldor chose a greater blessing: the one coming from Eru.

[mark12_30]

I do not think that Tolkien would have ever preferred valor over obedience to Eru. Harmony with the Music was critical to Tolkien.

Waiting for Eru's go-ahead to wage war isn't cowardice. It's obedience, holiness, and courage of the highest order.

We criticize men who sacrifice obedience for strategic advantage; Boromir, Isildur. The elves should be held to the same standard.

And in terms of fidelity: fidelity to Eru is the spring of all subsequent fidelity, inluding to the Valar, the Maiar, the Teleri-- and the Noldor.