Clear line between good and evil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

RyAN the Pure Heart · 03-02-2002, 08:13 PM

Has anyone else noticed how absolute the alignment of creatures in Tolkiens world is? I mean, Elves are always good, orcs, trolls (the list goes on) are always bad. It works well, i just always wondered what it would be like if there was a repenting orc or something. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

RyAN

p.s. i will note the split between good and evil between humans and dwarves.

LúthienTinúviel · 03-02-2002, 08:40 PM

Well, I don't know about that really. Not all men are good, or elves for that matter. I mean, Feanor wasn't totally good. Neith was Eol. I mean, they weren't evil, but they weren't entirely good. Espeically Feanor. I know he was influenced by Morgoth, but still. He essentially doomed the Noldor and even though it was in his power to resurrect Telperion and Laurelin and save Valinor from darkness, he didn't. He's not what I would call your average all around good guy.

Namárië,
Lúthien

RyAN the Pure Heart · 03-02-2002, 09:48 PM

good, point, k, i revise, just focus on the all evil races, lol

Kuruharan · 03-02-2002, 09:57 PM

I think that Tolkien said somewhere that it would be possible to reform an orc.

I believe that there is a big long thread about that somewhere in the Revising the Sil. Forum, but I don't remember what it's called.

Essentially I think that evil boiled down to whether or not you were consciously trying to serve only yourself or if you were trying to serve something larger than yourself i.e. Melkor desiring to increase his own role and glory rather than adorning the Music of Iluvatar.

03-03-2002, 01:03 AM

I wonder where the wild men in "The Ride of the Rohirrim" from ROTK would fit on this chart? I have to admit, I was really confused as to their role. Also, what about men? I would put them on the "good" side, but there are some questionable individuals among them (namely those who become Ringwraiths). I read somewhere an idea that several characters in LOTR are corrupted by darkness, but none repent once that corruption occurs. Was it on this board?

Voronwe · 03-03-2002, 08:03 AM

Well, Boromir was corrupted by the ring, and repented before his death.

Kuruharan · 03-03-2002, 08:40 AM

The Druedain/Woses/Wild Men were men. They were just a different type of men. Like the Hobbits were men, just of a different type.

zifnab · 03-03-2002, 10:42 AM

Quote:

I would put them on the "good" side, but there are some questionable individuals among them (namely those who become Ringwraiths).

They have been treacherous humans for centuries namely the 'Easterlings', and who could forget 'Ulfang the Black', who betrayed the Sons of Feanor, in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I think a good example that everybody will know is Gríma Wormtongue, he was a rotten apple, and even in other versions(Unfinished Tales), he betrayed Saruman to the Ringwraiths.

Melkor thought that Men were easy to sway(good/evil) and corrupt and many proved so. Look at how Sauron made the 9 powerful men(some where Númenóreans) his slaves(Ringwraiths).

Quote:

The Druedain/Woses/Wild Men were men

Turin joined a party that were called Gaurwaith(Wolfmen), but they were 'Woodwoses', Housless and Desperate Men-Outlaws. I would say that Ghân-buri-Ghân, and his men, were a little different, I don't see them as outlaws, more wildmen.

In some cases, yes there is a "Clear line between good and evil", but in some cases its hard to tell what the evil exactly is, and if it is all that bad.

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

Aralaithiel · 03-03-2002, 06:04 PM

I wouldn't say it is a clear line, but rather a nice gray area in which one end is white (good) and the other is black (evil), with lots of shades in between...a continuum, so to speak.
Did any of that make sense?

Kuruharan · 03-03-2002, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Turin joined a party that were called Gaurwaith(Wolfmen), but they were 'Woodwoses', Housless and Desperate Men-Outlaws. I would say that Ghân-buri-Ghân, and his men, were a little different, I don't see them as outlaws, more wildmen.

Absolutely they were different. Woses was another word for the Druadan, seriously.

And Ghan-buri-Ghan's very distant ancestors (or at least relatives) were part of the Folk of Haleth in the Forest of Brethil. Turin maybe met some of them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Gorin Icearms · 03-03-2002, 06:38 PM

What about Bill Ferny? He was a bad hobbit, not nescesarily (spelling?) evil, but a bad guy none the less.

Glim Iceholder · 03-03-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Also, what about men? I would put them on the "good" side, but there are some questionable individuals among them (namely those who become Ringwraiths).

The ringwriaths weren't really evil they just were corrupted by the ring. In the end Frodo(who certainly was good) was corrupted by a ring as well.

Daisy Sandybanks · 03-03-2002, 07:05 PM

I know this has probley come up, but what about Gollum? He was a Hobbit (at least thats what I heard) and he had both a good and evil side (though more of an evil side in my opinion). And if you really think about it even Frodo was just a tad bit evil at one point or another in his life (though I think the ring helped with that). Actually if you really think about it, I guess every character in the book was evil at some point, and maybe some more than others.

03-02-2002, 08:13 PM	#1
RyAN the Pure Heart Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: the Pit Of Sorrow Posts: 15	Clear line between good and evil Has anyone else noticed how absolute the alignment of creatures in Tolkiens world is? I mean, Elves are always good, orcs, trolls (the list goes on) are always bad. It works well, i just always wondered what it would be like if there was a repenting orc or something. Anyone else have an opinion on this? RyAN p.s. i will note the split between good and evil between humans and dwarves. __________________ "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for thou art with me"

03-02-2002, 08:40 PM	#2
LúthienTinúviel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 76	Well, I don't know about that really. Not all men are good, or elves for that matter. I mean, Feanor wasn't totally good. Neith was Eol. I mean, they weren't evil, but they weren't entirely good. Espeically Feanor. I know he was influenced by Morgoth, but still. He essentially doomed the Noldor and even though it was in his power to resurrect Telperion and Laurelin and save Valinor from darkness, he didn't. He's not what I would call your average all around good guy. Namárië, Lúthien __________________ Such lissom limbs no more shall run on the green earth beneath the sun; so fair a maid no more shall be from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea. http://www.thereandbackagain.net

03-02-2002, 09:48 PM	#3
RyAN the Pure Heart Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: the Pit Of Sorrow Posts: 15	good, point, k, i revise, just focus on the all evil races, lol __________________ "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for thou art with me"

03-02-2002, 09:57 PM	#4
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,639	I think that Tolkien said somewhere that it would be possible to reform an orc. I believe that there is a big long thread about that somewhere in the Revising the Sil. Forum, but I don't remember what it's called. Essentially I think that evil boiled down to whether or not you were consciously trying to serve only yourself or if you were trying to serve something larger than yourself i.e. Melkor desiring to increase his own role and glory rather than adorning the Music of Iluvatar. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-03-2002, 08:03 AM	#6
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	Well, Boromir was corrupted by the ring, and repented before his death. __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

03-03-2002, 01:03 AM	#5
solikat Guest Posts: n/a	I wonder where the wild men in "The Ride of the Rohirrim" from ROTK would fit on this chart? I have to admit, I was really confused as to their role. Also, what about men? I would put them on the "good" side, but there are some questionable individuals among them (namely those who become Ringwraiths). I read somewhere an idea that several characters in LOTR are corrupted by darkness, but none repent once that corruption occurs. Was it on this board?

03-03-2002, 08:40 AM	#7
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,639	The Druedain/Woses/Wild Men were men. They were just a different type of men. Like the Hobbits were men, just of a different type. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-03-2002, 06:04 PM	#9
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I wouldn't say it is a clear line, but rather a nice gray area in which one end is white (good) and the other is black (evil), with lots of shades in between...a continuum, so to speak. Did any of that make sense? __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-03-2002, 06:38 PM	#11
Gorin Icearms Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 67	What about Bill Ferny? He was a bad hobbit, not nescesarily (spelling?) evil, but a bad guy none the less. __________________ The Moon is Rising! Oh hey, I'm a wight now. WORSHIP ME IN ALL MY WIGHTNESS!!! MUAHAHAHA!!

03-03-2002, 07:05 PM	#13
Daisy Sandybanks Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 101	I know this has probley come up, but what about Gollum? He was a Hobbit (at least thats what I heard) and he had both a good and evil side (though more of an evil side in my opinion). And if you really think about it even Frodo was just a tad bit evil at one point or another in his life (though I think the ring helped with that). Actually if you really think about it, I guess every character in the book was evil at some point, and maybe some more than others. __________________ Knowlege is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.