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Old 11-23-2012, 11:00 AM   #1
TheLostPilgrim
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Will The Hobbit do damage to the books?

I'm a fan of the Jackson LOTR films, even despite their deviations from the source material; They were overall very well received films and at the time reignited the biggest interest in the books since the '70s. They are generally considered film classics and will have a good reputation in history. But that was ten years ago, now.

The Hobbit, unfortunately, is not only looking to be both very much different from the source material, but also is looking to be a bad film. The overuse of (what looks to be poor quality), the 48FPS controversy CGI, toilet humor, childish jokes, the comedy-adventure film tone, and now the PETA controversy are making it appear like this film might be a flop--both commercially and creatively.

The overuse of CGI is turning off a LOT of film purists, the idea of a "prequel" to the LOTR is being seen as a shallow, George Lucas-esque cash grab by people who aren't aware that The Hobbit existed long before Peter Jackson, the three film idea is being seen as a cash grab by fans of the Jackson films who are also knowledgeable of The Hobbit, the comedic/childish tone is being seen as crappy by mainstream film goers who don't seem to want anything that isn't gritty and realistic; Tolkien purists are upset at the way Jackson is enlarging The Hobbit's story, stretching it beyond it's natural boundaries, and even inserting characters who never existed in the original novel.

You also now have PETA creating a LOT of negative buzz for the films claiming in essence that there was sadistic treatment of animals during the filming. I've seen strong calls by PETA to boycott the films and the negative stories are making waves both in the British and American press VERY CLOSE to the release date.

I'm worried that:

1) This film will be a flop. I've read IMDB and other sites and A LOT of people have made up their minds that this film will be as bad as Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, that Jackson is the new George Lucas, and others who are boycotting it for various reasons (mostly the tone and the three film idea).

2) That the film, if it fails, will hurt the "Tolkien brand", or shy future readers away from The Hobbit. I mean people who are either too young now, or who are simply unaware that The Hobbit was a book written long ago, might have a negative perception of the book and associate it with the poor film based on it, and as such, pass it by. Many filmmgoers are ignorant; as I said, I've seen many who steadfastly believe that Jackson invented "prequels" to The Lord of the Rings to cash grab; Who are totally unaware that The Hobbit existed as a book has been in existence for nearly 80 years. I'm worried that the film, if it fails, and the bad reception, will hurt The Hobbit in the future, and Tolkien in general.

I mean very few modern day readers (of my age; I am 21), for example, have even HEARD of Gone with the Wind, the book; they only know of the film. And they base their perception of the book (it must be great, since the film was great) on the quality and reputation of the film.

I'm worried that as time goes by, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and Tolkien in general may be forgotten, consigned to a little niche. Not many of my generation have any clue who George MacDonald was, for example. Right now, because of Jackson's LOTR films, a lot of my generation and those older know those books and love them...But I'm afraid The Hobbit film will do just the opposite with the younger members of my generation and the younger generation (kids now in that 8-12 year old group).
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:19 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim View Post
1) This film will be a flop. I've read IMDB and other sites and A LOT of people have made up their minds that this film will be as bad as Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, that Jackson is the new George Lucas, and others who are boycotting it for various reasons (mostly the tone and the three film idea).
I think the box office takings will be respectable. I really can't see it being a "flop", not the first installment anyway, but I do think a lot of people who liked the LOTR films are in for disappointment. I think the comparison to Lucas is apt, at least from what I've seen from the trailers. As you said, the "jokes" and gratuitous CGI are the more glaring similarities to The Phantom Menace, but the prequel trilogy parallel is there as well.

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2) That the film, if it fails, will hurt the "Tolkien brand", or shy future readers away from The Hobbit. I mean people who are either too young now, or who are simply unaware that The Hobbit was a book written long ago, might have a negative perception of the book and associate it with the poor film based on it, and as such, pass it by. Many filmmgoers are ignorant; as I said, I've seen many who steadfastly believe that Jackson invented "prequels" to The Lord of the Rings to cash grab; Who are totally unaware that The Hobbit existed as a book has been in existence for nearly 80 years. I'm worried that the film, if it fails, and the bad reception, will hurt The Hobbit in the future, and Tolkien in general.
Hmm. Will people who actually read books assume that the movie is such an accurate adaptation that they'll avoid the printed matter? I hope not. I think there are readers who watch movies, and then there are dedicated movie watchers who occasionally read books. The former understand the problems with film adaptations, and I think the story is strong enough on its own that PJ can't kill the book for them.
As for the latter, they aren't as likely to actively seek out the book anyway.

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I'm worried that as time goes by, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and Tolkien in general may be forgotten, consigned to a little niche. Not many of my generation have any clue who George MacDonald was, for example. Right now, because of Jackson's LOTR films, a lot of my generation and those older know those books and love them...But I'm afraid The Hobbit film will do just the opposite with the younger members of my generation and the younger generation (kids now in that 8-12 year old group).
Well, the books were "consigned to a little niche" anyway, before PJ and the LOTR marketing came along. Before those films, I knew only a handful of people who had ever read the books, and none whose level of interest in them approached mine. Yet, the books have thrived over the long years. I trust that will continue, especially with the internet and its excellent (ahem ) fora that allow anyone to virtually meet and discuss these wonderful stories.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:05 PM   #3
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I think the box office takings will be respectable. I really can't see it being a "flop", not the first installment anyway, but I do think a lot of people who liked the LOTR films are in for disappointment. I think the comparison to Lucas is apt, at least from what I've seen from the trailers. As you said, the "jokes" and gratuitous CGI are the more glaring similarities to The Phantom Menace, but the prequel trilogy parallel is there as well.
The problem is I've never gotten the "overusing CGI is bad" argument. If the technology is available, why not use it? Technology should not take precedence over story or be used at the expense of the story and characters, but can be a useful tool. The anti-CGI movement seems to be a very big thing amongst people in their 30s or so ever since Lucas and I've never understood why. As to the tone...Even without Jackson's jokes, I think the tone was ALWAYS going to be different. Therein lies the quagmire. If you keep The Hobbit's tone to the letter, you're going to disappoint a ton of people who go in thinking "The Hobbit = The Lord of the Rings." If you alter the tone of The Hobbit to be as dark and grounded as The Lord of the Rings, you've lost a great deal of the magic and wonder of that book. It's sort of lose-lose.

I don't mean Jackson taking things in a more lighthearted direction; the book is overall more lighthearted. But if we're going to focus more on humor, the humor should be intelligent, clever humor. Not toilet jokes or jokes about Bombur being fat. You can make a little jabby joke here or there, a subtle one, about Bombur's weight, but making the joke part of his character just degrades his character. The problem Jackson faced is how to balance the tone of The Hobbit against the tone of the Lord of the Rings successfully, and not come off with a film that is like Phantom Menace (which tries to simultaneously court the 8-11 year old demographic while also targeting the then 30something year olds who grew up with the original films). I fear Jackson has gone down the same route, trying to target two audiences at once. You can't please everyone and any attempt to do so will result in failure.

And the three films are stretching it. I understand his desire to show as much of the story and backstory as possible; I do not feel his motive is cash grab. But the problem is two fold: If you have two stories (The main Hobbit story, and the White Council story) in the films, it could take away from the main Hobbit story, which is really a coming of age tale, in a way. On the other hand, most casual filmmgoers have no clue about the White Council or Dol Gulder or any of the stuff that was indeed happening during The Hobbit, so they simply think Jackson made all this up and added a third film to cash grab.

For myself, I think the "Third Film" should've just been the Extended Editions of the two films. While three, a trilogy, makes for a nicer number, it might've fared better with two films and allowed for a perhaps more centered story to unfold.

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Hmm. Will people who actually read books assume that the movie is such an accurate adaptation that they'll avoid the printed matter? I hope not. I think there are readers who watch movies, and then there are dedicated movie watchers who occasionally read books. The former understand the problems with film adaptations, and I think the story is strong enough on its own that PJ can't kill the book for them.
As for the latter, they aren't as likely to actively seek out the book anyway.
What I bolded of yours is my fear.

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Well, the books were "consigned to a little niche" anyway, before PJ and the LOTR marketing came along. Before those films, I knew only a handful of people who had ever read the books, and none whose level of interest in them approached mine. Yet, the books have thrived over the long years. I trust that will continue, especially with the internet and its excellent (ahem ) fora that allow anyone to virtually meet and discuss these wonderful stories.
I suppose but weren't the books HUGE during the 60s, 70s and 80s--Practically a definitive part of popular culture in those eras, before PJ? I mean all those bands like Rush and Zeppelin helping popularize the books and the FRODO LIVES signs in the subways of New York etc etc. Plus you had in the '80s and '90s the influence of Tolkien on the development of Dungeons & Dragons and tons of like minded games and would-be-Tolkien fantasy novels....

I'd say the '60s, '70s, '80s and to a lesser extent '90s were a golden age of the fantasy genre and of Tolkien especially and beyond the works of Tolkien being forgotten, a larger part of me fears that the fantasy genre in general is dying off.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:14 PM   #4
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At least wait for the film to come out before making such extreme judgements on it please. I have high hopes for this film and expect it to the meet such hopes.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #5
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At least wait for the film to come out before making such extreme judgements on it please. I have high hopes for this film and expect it to the meet such hopes.
It will require two-and-a-half years to watch this two-and-a-half-hour movie, so one will have to sit through the First Third of the Hobbit, to see how much narrative bloat, gratuitous CGI, fan-fiction cameo appearances (not to mention crass commercial product placement) to expunge from the mind so as to glean what part of the Hobbit one has actually seen. Then one will have to repeat this filtration process over the next year-and-a-half with The Second Third of the Hobbit and The Third Third of the Hobbit.

Or, one could wait until 2015 for the extra-special director's-cut DVD featuring a properly edited, two-and-a-half-hour version of The Hobbit.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:30 PM   #6
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You have high hopes others have deep fears. They are entitled to express them eapecially as a part of a well structured post.

I don't plan on seeing the films in cinema but I am not worried about the books. Lord of the RIngs was voted book of the century bafore the films came out and The Hobbit is one of the dozen books bookshops always have in stock and IIRC has never gone out of print.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:46 PM   #7
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The Hobbit is much more childish than LotR or the Sil, and so why not have a lot more fun with the film?

I can't repeatedly reread it like I can the other books - The Hobbit's that different, and it's possible that as I've aged I've left it behind.

So I will see the films - you never know.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim View Post
Tolkien purists are upset at the way Jackson is enlarging The Hobbit's story, stretching it beyond it's natural boundaries, and even inserting characters who never existed in the original novel.
Weren't the Tolkien purists upset at the Lord of the Rings movies too? I mean, I had problems with the movies, and I'm no where near a purist (just a devoted Faramir and Celeborn fan). The thing is, characters were always going to have to be inserted that didn't exist in the original novel, whether they were named or not - you can't have Mirkwood with 3 or 4 elves. And while Tauriel is controversial, I find that there's also people that support the Hobbit movie because she's been inserted.

Quote:
I mean very few modern day readers (of my age; I am 21), for example, have even HEARD of Gone with the Wind, the book; they only know of the film. And they base their perception of the book (it must be great, since the film was great) on the quality and reputation of the film.

I'm worried that as time goes by, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and Tolkien in general may be forgotten, consigned to a little niche. Not many of my generation have any clue who George MacDonald was, for example. Right now, because of Jackson's LOTR films, a lot of my generation and those older know those books and love them...But I'm afraid The Hobbit film will do just the opposite with the younger members of my generation and the younger generation (kids now in that 8-12 year old group).
I think comparing Tolkien to George MacDonald is a bit of a stress. MacDonald, however much I like The Princess and the Goblin and The Princess and Curdie, is dated. Most of his works are highly religious in nature, in the same way that Lewis' Narnia books are. There are plenty of people that can't stand those, but that love Tolkien's books.

While I can see where you're coming from, perhaps it will assure you if I tell you that when I was working in my school districts's middle school library two years ago, I remember checking Tolkien's books out to many a kid and that my little brother (currently in the age range you specified) is reading the Hobbit. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but I find that at least among the people I hang out with at college, most of us are Tolkien geeks to the extreme, with younger cousins, siblings, nephews, or nieces that are also growing up to read the books. I think that as long as there's some of us that love the books to introduce them to the younger generation, there's always going to be Tolkien fans.

They might come across it differently - my little brother saw me playing LOTRO and decided to join me in playing, before staring to read The Hobbit and planning to see the movie this fall. But I don't think Tolkien's books are going to disappear.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:09 PM   #9
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Weren't the Tolkien purists upset at the Lord of the Rings movies too?
Nothing against you, LadyB., but every time I see the word "purist" in conjunction with a person irritated or upset about the manner in which Jackson buggered the Bagginses, I wonder.

For instance, I wonder what is the opposite of Purist? The Illiterati? or simply Impurists? I've never given a name to these contrarians.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:00 AM   #10
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I wouldn't say so.

By including characters & elements that were left out of TLOTR
they're compensating with a 3-movie provision. I can appreciate
that.
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:05 AM   #11
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I think what purist means for me in these kind of situations are people who are not able to accept that the movies are interpretations, not illustrations. While I'm not saying that any of you guys would particularly be such - I think a lot of what has been said here is valid and reasonable - there are quite a lot of people who have not been able to accept that movie as a template is very different from books and has a different set of usable devices for storytelling (and thus lacks the option of, for example, having 13 characters that, apart from some exceptions, only differ in the colour of their caps), and that what we are seeing here is something that Peter Jackson sees inside his head when reading the books, rather than something that should be taken for canon.

That being said, I am mildly worried about these not ending up being good films. The Hobbit as a book has at least for me had the status of nice and easy-to-read fantasy: if I have friends who are new to the genre, I could suggest they read that, to lure them into the world. The movie clearly doesn't seem to have that simplicity - it looks like it might end up being a lot more confusing than other recent fantasy movies. Then again, it's hard to say anything just yet - what I'm mainly concerned about is the ability of the team to merge the two stories together in a meaningful manner and to explain the premises of the Dol Guldur plot for those who don't understand it beforehand, and there's nothing in the trailers to suggest them having succeeded or failed in that. But time will show: I'm sure a lot of people will go see the first movie, and the level of success in that one will determine the fate of the others.

Regarding Bombur (looking at you, Pilgrim): It might just be that I haven't read The Hobbit in a while, but I can't see it as degrading his character a lot, if PJ'd base it solely on weight - it isn't that far from it in the book. In the book most of the dwarves are "the dwarves" and that's the end of their person - this ignoring Thorin and Balin, and Fili, Kili and Bombur (Fili and Kili are younger and that's their role, Bombur's lazy and fat and doesn't want to accept being reminded/treated through his weight, but that's really the extent of it). Or can you tell me a deeper characterisation of Bombur? What should PJ have put in in order to make him become/stay a full character? I do understand perfectly the negative feelings people had about Legolas and Gimli being treated as the comical sidekicks, since there was actually something to be lost/changed there, but doesn't Tolkien himself use Bombur as the funny fat guy?
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:05 AM   #12
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Nothing against you, LadyB., but every time I see the word "purist" in conjunction with a person irritated or upset about the manner in which Jackson buggered the Bagginses, I wonder.

For instance, I wonder what is the opposite of Purist? The Illiterati? or simply Impurists? I've never given a name to these contrarians.
I have no idea, given that I would hardly label myself a purist (not caring that much about Bagginses or Hobbits in general.) I won't give my thoughts on the opposite of Purist, since Purist has all sorts of negative connotations for me...I would say that I think that there's a difference between being a purist and being upset that PJ messed up a character. One, to me, is the kind folks that chase me down and yell at me about stories labeled crack/humor not following the books exactly...the other is a valid thing. It's the middle ground that gets tricky, especially when it's not clear if people are complaining because they truly dislike something, or just for the sake of complaining....
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:24 PM   #13
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Weren't the Tolkien purists upset at the Lord of the Rings movies too?
Yes...and well, yes.

Initially I was upset that PJ wasn't following the Books, and more importantly, MY vision of the same. But with time I let that all that 'purist stuff' go and yet still found tomes of material in which to criticize PJ, such as lack of consistency, dumbed-down humor, the word "She-elf" ...

Quote:
The thing is, characters were always going to have to be inserted that didn't exist in the original novel, whether they were named or not - you can't have Mirkwood with 3 or 4 elves.
I understand what you mean - orc #12,210 isn't as exciting as Lurtz - but in LotR, main characters were left to the side (Eomer) to make room for Brego snogging Aragorn.

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And while Tauriel is controversial, I find that there's also people that support the Hobbit movie because she's been inserted.
I guess that we'll have to wait and see how it all works out.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:49 PM   #14
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I read LOTR after watching the first movie.

I think it's fair to say it'll attract more people to Tolkien. Those that decide to not read the books probably wouldn't have anyway.

I think with LOTR films the book is 1000 pages so it's tough to say what PJ should and shouldn't have changed my biggest issue was the elves at Helm's Deep but if you watch the extended editions a lot of what was missing was filmed just not in the theatrical version. Certain things had to be changed for cinema for example Glorfindel becoming Arwen there was a lot of anger over this but for me after watching the movie AND reading the book Glorfindel was just an extra character that added nothing, for the movie, execpt(to the average audience member) "Well, random character saves the day nice plot device."

The Hobbit is a much more lighthearted story and frankly I'll judge it when it comes out, but at least one scene I expect to be different is the ravens and thrush talking. And probably the Eagles. My issue is the three movies deal. I want each movie to be at least 3-3 and a half hours. Because if they're each 2 then I feel they forced the added film. Also I figured with 2 movies they'd most likely split it at them getting dragged to the dungeons in mirkwood. with three films I have no idea.

Another issue is as someone else mentioned the dwarves aren't exactly the most unique of characters, and Bombour is often ridiculed for his weight in in the BBC Radio version.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:33 AM   #15
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from what I can gather, they're ending the first movie after the eagles rescue the dwarves from the warg attack, and ending the second film most likely after Smaug has died. Which makes me think Hobbit 3 will be really short. Apparently Jackson stated somewhere that the first film will barely be longer than 2 hours. I can't seem to find the article though.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:20 AM   #16
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Apparently Jackson stated somewhere that the first film will barely be longer than 2 hours. I can't seem to find the article though.
http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35587

According to Empire Magazine published Oct 24, PJ said the first movie will be about 2 hours 40 minutes. Not great but not too bad.
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:34 PM   #17
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Yes...and well, yes.

Initially I was upset that PJ wasn't following the Books, and more importantly, MY vision of the same. But with time I let that all that 'purist stuff' go and yet still found tomes of material in which to criticize PJ, such as lack of consistency, dumbed-down humor, the word "She-elf" ...

I understand what you mean - orc #12,210 isn't as exciting as Lurtz - but in LotR, main characters were left to the side (Eomer) to make room for Brego snogging Aragorn.

I guess that we'll have to wait and see how it all works out.
Yeah, there's certainly tons of room to criticize PJ, not trying to say there isn't (like I said before, I hate how Celeborn was treated. I think that the movies diminished both his and Galadriel's characters with those changes, but I won't go into that here.) I just want to give the movies a chance - especially since I do know that some kids are reading the books because of the upcoming movies (like my brother/minion) and that I read LotR because of the movies to begin with. Now, the Tolkien Estate has untold amounts of my money...
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:55 PM   #18
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Yeah, there's certainly tons of room to criticize PJ, not trying to say there isn't (like I said before, I hate how Celeborn was treated. I think that the movies diminished both his and Galadriel's characters with those changes, but I won't go into that here.) I just want to give the movies a chance - especially since I do know that some kids are reading the books because of the upcoming movies (like my brother/minion) and that I read LotR because of the movies to begin with. Now, the Tolkien Estate has untold amounts of my money...
If people read the books because of the movies, that is the best outcome they could provide, regardless of box-office takings or possible awards.
As for the Estate having the money....well, I doubt they have as much as popular belief would credit. They've had to fight with New Line for a share.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:20 AM   #19
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The Hobbit trilogy will never be as good as the LOTR. I'm not sure about doing damage but it will certainly be read more often in the lead up. The other day I saw a school jock borrowing a Hobbit novel.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:46 PM   #20
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I'm ovverall pleased.

Remember it is by sheer chance both the books and movies have been made.
We're lucky to have gotten either available.

When it comes to the films, I'm pleased that the rewriting & so on has ensured box office success and wider & new interest for people that otherwise would not have come.

Plus the splitting of The Hobbit into 3 films and inclusion of Radagast & Saruman, and anything else, helps compensate for the glossing over of them in the LOTR films. So I'm not feeling bad about PJ's efforts. I'm happy these books became films.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:47 AM   #21
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I think it does further the impression that Tolkien's books are nothing but fun escapism for teenage boys. The LoTR films already did this, and I get tired of hearing intellectual types dismiss books they haven't read while the rest say "I loved the movie, but I couldn't get through the first chapter in the book. It was so boring!" In both cases, people who don't know Tolkien at all are running around claiming they do.
Now we're up for another round of that, along with "Lonely Mountain" ice cream sundaes at diners and terrible Hobbit puns in every paper for the next three years. I'm really looking forward to it.

Not to say I don't find things to enjoy in these movies, but I do think they misrepresent the books. Book fans who start as movie fans seem quite rare (even if we tend to collect them here).
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:48 PM   #22
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So much for my optimism

Tonight on celebrity mastermind a contender was asked "The return of the king" was the third part ofwhich FILM trilogy?

I don't knowvif they dumbed down for a soap actor or if this means that the films have gained the upper hand.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:01 PM   #23
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Tonight on celebrity mastermind a contender was asked "The return of the king" was the third part ofwhich FILM trilogy?

I don't knowvif they dumbed down for a soap actor or if this means that the films have gained the upper hand.
Putting a positive spin on this . . . perhaps the framer of the question was aware that the movies were marketed as a trilogy but that Tolkien himself said LotR was not a trilogy? It was printed in three parts I believe because of economic issues in England in the mid-50's.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:47 PM   #24
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I will try to think that.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:06 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mithalwen View Post
Tonight on celebrity mastermind a contender was asked "The return of the king" was the third part ofwhich FILM trilogy?

I don't knowvif they dumbed down for a soap actor or if this means that the films have gained the upper hand.
Quite probably they wouldn't be aware of the books in any event.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:08 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mithalwen View Post
Tonight on celebrity mastermind a contender was asked "The return of the king" was the third part of which FILM trilogy?

I don't know if they dumbed down for a soap actor or if this means that the films have gained the upper hand.
I'm afraid it has become part of pop culture. As good or as bad as the Peter Jackson films were/are, they have co-opted the Lord of the Rings in the minds of so many. At an advance screening of The Hobbit, and at an 'Elevensies" party at a local "Tolkien" geek's house, the chatter was mostly about the movies. Any purist book thinking was gently shuffled aside, but shuffled aside none-the-less. And there was a standard theme of "Peter Jackson's" Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings talk in the theatre crowd. Where as the Lord of the Rings movies were made with thought to the fact they were unsure how they would be received, The Hobbit was made knowing that it would be watched by many due to the popularity of the previous movies. The Hobbit movie presented is rubbish, and is just more nails in the coffin of the Professor's literary masterpiece. It will now be known as "Peter Jackson's story" in generations to come.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:04 PM   #27
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Possibly, but I think myths have a way of outliving their authors.

And we can point to the situation in New Zealand where folks are petitioning to have a mountain named after Tolkien. At least they aren't asking it to be named after Peter Jackson.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:15 PM   #28
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At an advance screening of The Hobbit, and at an 'Elevensies" party at a local "Tolkien" geek's house, the chatter was mostly about the movies. Any purist book thinking was gently shuffled aside, but shuffled aside none-the-less. And there was a standard theme of "Peter Jackson's" Hobbit.
But from everything I've heard this film *is* very much "Peter Jackson's 'Hobbit'", rather than Tolkien's– and perhaps it's just as well it should be seen as such.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:35 AM   #29
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Tonight on celebrity mastermind a contender was asked "The return of the king" was the third part ofwhich FILM trilogy?

I don't knowvif they dumbed down for a soap actor or if this means that the films have gained the upper hand.
A colleague knows a Mastermind question setter and they certainly do not allocate General Knowledge questions according to the contestant's intellectual level. All four of them get questions of the same level so that it is fair. If you analyse the questions, then there tend to be 'sets' of similar questions and each of the four contestants will be asked one of them - e.g. there will be a question each about Prime Ministers or Saxon kings. The other three contestants will have also been asked questions about films.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:51 AM   #30
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A colleague knows a Mastermind question setter and they certainly do not allocate General Knowledge questions according to the contestant's intellectual level. All four of them get questions of the same level so that it is fair. If you analyse the questions, then there tend to be 'sets' of similar questions and each of the four contestants will be asked one of them - e.g. there will be a question each about Prime Ministers or Saxon kings. The other three contestants will have also been asked questions about films.
They did seem easier than those for the ordinary contestants but it didn't help this chap since he still did not recognise it. But it is comforting if it was film because they needed a film question rather than because it has been forgotten that it was a very successfil book first.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:44 AM   #31
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Also not everyone's imagination or ability to read properly, is exactly the same. Some people no doubt found it easier to watch the films, then read the books.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:10 AM   #32
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I don't know if this applies as an answer to the question in the title, but this may provide indication that the movies will do damage to the themes of the books.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/joeljmi...-of-the-rings/
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:57 AM   #33
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I think the hobbit will kill the popularity of the genre. People who love it will still love it, but I doubt it will remain popular worldwide, it will have a niche audience like it was meant to have. The lord of the rings movies introduced many to Tolkien, likewise I think the hobbit will de-introduce many to Tolkien. It's a good thing, I myself find all the hype and fandom around the mythology to be quite unappealing. It makes me not want to have to do with any of it, because it's so pathetic in a way you know. How people dress up as the characters in the book and collect toys and stuff. I mean it's kinda like if one would be a believing christian and everyone around you would dress up as moses and walk around at cosplay conventions roleplaying the characters. Not that I like Tolkien as much as some chrisitans like christianity, but one can appreciate it in the same way, fiction is like that. Tolkien himself was annoyed by something similar yet more mild.
Quote:
In the last years of his life, Tolkien became greatly disappointed by some of the liturgical reforms and changes implemented after the Second Vatican Council, as his grandson Simon Tolkien recalls:

I vividly remember going to church with him in Bournemouth. He was a devout Roman Catholic and it was soon after the Church had changed the liturgy from Latin to English. My grandfather obviously didn't agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating, but my grandfather was oblivious. He simply had to do what he believed to be right.
As for how Tolkien would have liked this abomination that is the hobbit, I'll let him speak for himself:
Quote:
However, Tolkien was not fond of all the artistic representation of his works that were produced in his lifetime, and was sometimes harshly disapproving. In 1946, he rejected suggestions for illustrations by Horus Engels for the German edition of The Hobbit as "too Disnified ... Bilbo with a dribbling nose, and Gandalf as a figure of vulgar fun rather than the Odinic wanderer that I think of".
Quote:
Tolkien was sceptical of the emerging Tolkien fandom in the United States, and in 1954 he returned proposals for the dust jackets of the American edition of The Lord of the Rings:

Thank you for sending me the projected 'blurbs', which I return. The Americans are not as a rule at all amenable to criticism or correction; but I think their effort is so poor that I feel constrained to make some effort to improve it.

He had dismissed dramatic representations of fantasy in his essay "On Fairy-Stories", first presented in 1939:

In human art Fantasy is a thing best left to words, to true literature. [...] Drama is naturally hostile to Fantasy. Fantasy, even of the simplest kind, hardly ever succeeds in Drama, when that is presented as it should be, visibly and audibly acted.
Especially this quote makes it sound like Tolkien would hate the movie.
Quote:
On receiving a screenplay for a proposed film adaptation of The Lord of the Rings by Morton Grady Zimmerman, Tolkien wrote:

I would ask them to make an effort of imagination sufficient to understand the irritation (and on occasion the resentment) of an author, who finds, increasingly as he proceeds, his work treated as it would seem carelessly in general, in places recklessly, and with no evident signs of any appreciation of what it is all about.

Tolkien went on to criticize the script scene by scene ("yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings").
From these quotes it's evident that he would not approve of this fandom phenomenon that is taking place. People dressing up as characters and roleplaying them, collecting toys. He would also hate the films I'm sure, since "yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings".

I think some of us ought to ask ourself if what we're doing is sane, in a way I can sympathize with religious authorities who have to be put under the same label as some christians from the united states and some muslims from the middle east. Slightly ignorant people pull down the fiction and perverts it, it makes one feel dirty and unclean since one is in their company. Tolkien seems to agree with this and I'm sure some of you do too, which means that the hobbit movies being as bad as they are, is a good thing.

It will be cleaner

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Old 01-15-2013, 03:22 PM   #34
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It's a good thing, I myself find all the hype and fandom around the mythology to be quite unappealing. It makes me not want to have to do with any of it, because it's so pathetic in a way you know.
Then I guess you'll be leaving the forum then? Have a nice life.

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How people dress up as the characters in the book and collect toys and stuff. I mean it's kinda like if one would be a believing christian and everyone around you would dress up as moses and walk around at cosplay conventions roleplaying the characters. Not that I like Tolkien as much as some chrisitans like christianity, but one can appreciate it in the same way, fiction is like that. Tolkien himself was annoyed by something similar yet more mild.
I see Christians dress like biblical characters every Christmas season. People dress up like characters in Dickens novels and I don't know how often I've seen folks dressed up in Shakespearean garb. And then there are hundreds of Renaissance festivals all over the world. Your point is as pointless as Tolkien's was bemoaning losing control of his creation. If he were that adamant about retaining control of his works, then he wouldn't have sold the movie rights to pay tax bills. But he did sell the rights. He took the money. He spent the money. Oh well, so much for self-righteous indignation.

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From these quotes it's evident that he would not approve of this fandom phenomenon that is taking place. People dressing up as characters and roleplaying them, collecting toys. He would also hate the films I'm sure, since "yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings".
Yes, he would hate the films. But he has no one else to blame but himself. He also had no control of how his fans would react to his works. But it's a far sight better that they are dressing up as characters and collecting toys - and in the process buying millions of his books - than it would be if he never sold a single volume. Most starving or fledgling authors would fully welcome such adulation, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Ulvenok View Post
I think some of us ought to ask ourself if what we're doing is sane, in a way I can sympathize with religious authorities who have to be put under the same label as some christians from the united states and some muslims from the middle east. Slightly ignorant people pull down the fiction and perverts it, it makes one feel dirty and unclean since one is in their company. Tolkien seems to agree with this and I'm sure some of you do too, which means that the hobbit movies being as bad as they are, is a good thing.
I believe you should retract some of your statements here.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:03 PM   #35
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Yes, he would hate the films. But he has no one else to blame but himself.
Really, I'm one of those that think it actually would be possible to make a proper adaption of the book. Jackson did a decent job with the lord of the rings, but he slaughtered the hobbit.
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Then I guess you'll be leaving the forum then? Have a nice life.
I won't leave if I don't have to, but I'm the kind of guy that doesn't speak with friends and family about visiting this place. I feel ashamed...because there are people that collect toys and stuff. I'm sure some of the muslims feel shame too being in the company of those talibans...
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:31 PM   #36
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I won't leave if I don't have to, but I'm the kind of guy that doesn't speak with friends and family about visiting this place. I feel ashamed...because there are people that collect toys and stuff.
That's so interesting. Your interest (from the number of impassioned posts) seems at odds with your shame.

From my point of view, if you can't be true to yourself, why bother? I'd say, Man up!, but that might be considered racist as you might be an elf or dwarf or hobbit or dragon or talking fox or ent or...well, you get the drift.

Quote:
I'm sure some of the muslims feel shame too being in the company of those talibans...
Wow! Again, you do know that we're discussing movies based (loosely ) on books, not religious or political beliefs, where one states an opinion (sometimes supported by data) and sees what others think? I can remember my first few LotR movies posts ; then when I took a breathe, learned that there were other points of view that, though different from mine, helped me understand the movies so much better.

Anyway, still haven't seen the Hobbit. Might takes the kids some day; probably should read the book to them first.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:47 PM   #37
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I feel ashamed...because there are people that collect toys and stuff. I'm sure some of the muslims feel shame too being in the company of those talibans...
I collect toys. I've got almost all of the action figures released with the LotR films. I've been buying the Lego sets lately. I made a seven foot long Nazgul cloak and swanned around in it at Birmingham 2005 and got drunk and laughed at people dressed as Gandalf and the Balrog playing 'Golfimbul' with a fake sword and a doll's head. I also collect the books and have many different editions - we have three different sets of the History of Middle-earth. I don't see that the two are mutually exclusive because I find both of them enjoyable. I'll be the first to admit that I'm being ripped off somewhere along the line and I should probably have invested the cash in a pension or something (dull) instead of helping fill the coffers of the Estate and toy manufacturers, but no, I enjoy it. And I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a fool for that. Geek Pride
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:52 PM   #38
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Really, I'm one of those that think it actually would be possible to make a proper adaption of the book. Jackson did a decent job with the lord of the rings, but he slaughtered the hobbit.

I won't leave if I don't have to, but I'm the kind of guy that doesn't speak with friends and family about visiting this place. I feel ashamed...because there are people that collect toys and stuff. I'm sure some of the muslims feel shame too being in the company of those talibans...
I also wanted to respond to this sorry for the double post.

Jackson didn't do too bad with LoTR though honestly I found his changes far more glaring in those movies than The Hobbit.

I still love the last March of the Ents in the bbok I was in awe but on Screen chills, literally. I was hypnotized by that scene.

Again heed my advice if you can't be honest about talking about Tolkien how can be honest about more important things? My wife knew the day nay the hour we met that I was a geek through and through I've been a geek since at least first grade got my first pair of glasses and was THRILLED(my favorite ranger being th blue ranger who wore glasses) Of course I met my wife when she bonked me in the head with a sword so the whole geek thing worked in the situation.

Again with the muslim/taliban comparison? Us liking LoTR and dressing like characters doesn't compare to blowing up cars and

Things of that nature. and frankly if us in costumes makes us the talibanm that makes you the "regular" muslim which mean you worship Tolkien 5 times a day is that really more sane? See how silly it sounds now.

Comicon in San Diego is HUGE. Bi Bang Theory one of the hottest shows on. Super Hero movies are blockbusters LoTR and TH BLock busters. Star Wars is EVERYWHERE. Harry Potter is a featured area in universal And J.K Rowling is the first person to become a Billionare from writing books.

Geekdom is no longer a niche. We're mainstream. You seem to just want to be the kid that hates Tolkien now because "he sold out man!"
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:39 PM   #39
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I think the hobbit will kill the popularity of the genre. People who love it will still love it, but I doubt it will remain popular worldwide, it will have a niche audience like it was meant to have. The lord of the rings movies introduced many to Tolkien, likewise I think the hobbit will de-introduce many to Tolkien. It's a good thing, I myself find all the hype and fandom around the mythology to be quite unappealing. It makes me not want to have to do with any of it, because it's so pathetic in a way you know. How people dress up as the characters in the book and collect toys and stuff. I mean it's kinda like if one would be a believing christian and everyone around you would dress up as moses and walk around at cosplay conventions roleplaying the characters. Not that I like Tolkien as much as some chrisitans like christianity, but one can appreciate it in the same way, fiction is like that. Tolkien himself was annoyed by something similar yet more mild.

As for how Tolkien would have liked this abomination that is the hobbit, I'll let him speak for himself:


Especially this quote makes it sound like Tolkien would hate the movie.

From these quotes it's evident that he would not approve of this fandom phenomenon that is taking place. People dressing up as characters and roleplaying them, collecting toys. He would also hate the films I'm sure, since "yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings".

I think some of us ought to ask ourself if what we're doing is sane, in a way I can sympathize with religious authorities who have to be put under the same label as some christians from the united states and some muslims from the middle east. Slightly ignorant people pull down the fiction and perverts it, it makes one feel dirty and unclean since one is in their company. Tolkien seems to agree with this and I'm sure some of you do too, which means that the hobbit movies being as bad as they are, is a good thing.

It will be cleaner
Dear Lord where to start...

Well let's start with your first paragraph here,(Which later you contradict but claiming not to judge, by the way) Your first paragraph is probably the most on-topic of this diatribe. You claim that The Hobbit will "de-inroduce" many to tolkien. I disagree I think the Movie, being more action packed, will bring in more readers.

I think Tolkien's book is fantastic and works on paper on screen through if you think about it there are pretty good chunks of time in the book of really nothing occuring outside of Bilbo and Bombor complaining.

Now then you continue on calling people pathetic, for dressing up and enjoying their fandom. I actually owe my recent weight loss to geekness(a contradiction for sure) I was 245lbs(about... estimating 110-125 kilos something like that 2.2 lbs per kilo) now I'm at 202 because I wanted to dress up in a cool costume and look good in it.

More fans can mean more longegevity even in a fairly secluded forum such as this. Even you with your...shall we say... contreversial, opinions bring new conversation to the board. Without new comers how can we keep the conversations alive only so many times to go over whether or not balrogs have wings(they do deal with it)

Then you talk about religion as if it's on the same level as Tolkien. I'm assuming you were just trying to get a rise out of people.

You're ashamed to be a geek? You must still be in Junior High. Such distinctions have no real say in the real world. I consider my style Business Geek. looking at me I'm a very well kept and groomed guy but you look at my arms you'll see on the right a triforce/mad hatter tattoo on the other a video game spell/Dr who tattoo. Yet I'm a Manager at myplace of business and held in fairly high regard by the district managers.

Let me give you some advice, don't be ashamed to like something, don't be afraid to admit you like something. Truth, truth is all that matters. If you're too scared to admit you like Lord of the Rings which is currently a fairly main stream interest(a theme park planned and everything) then you'll never be able to fully and whole heartedly pursue a more important dream. A more worthy goal.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:12 PM   #40
Lotrelf
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 265
Lotrelf has just left Hobbiton.
I'm one of those who first saw movies (both LotR & The Hobbit) and then read the books(haven't finished the Hobbit yet). I felt disappointed from the movie's part. Movies actually dragged a lot in Hobbit. I felt disappointed about LotR too, but the movies are good and PJ proves himself to be true to Tolkien's world, if not his story, completely. The Hobbit book is simple and sweet. A Children's Tale. But I didn't see that simplicity in the first movie (haven't seen the second one).
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