gates of moria question - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

greyhavener · 05-18-2002, 12:30 PM

I haven't read all the way through the Sil, the answer is probably in there, but I'm busy, lazy, and curious. This has bothered me for a long time...why is the language above the gates of moria in elvish when it's a dwarvish cave? Elves don't like caves. They don't like dwarves. So why elvish? Someone told me that dwarves don't have their own written language. Is that the reason or is there more to the story?

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

Daniel Telcontar · 05-18-2002, 12:41 PM

The dwarves of Moria and the elvensmiths of Eregion had the closest relationship between elves and dwarves. Hence it was an elf (Celebrimbor) who made the dwarven gate and since his people also were to ones to use it mostly (alongside with the dwarves of course), it was made in elven language. It is also possible that the enchantment upon the gate could only be made with elven letters.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ]

Lothiriel Silmarien · 05-18-2002, 01:09 PM

That's exactly it, you beat me to the answer! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think that Celebrimbor and....uh, crap I forget his name! Celebrimbor and some other dwarf, oh yeah! Narvi, I think it's Narvi. Well anyway, Celebrimbor and Narvi were said to have the closest relationship between dwarf and elf besides Legolas and Gimli. And Narvi built the west gate of Moria and Celebrimbor drew the signs and designs and stuff. And that's why it's in elvish.

Daniel Telcontar · 05-18-2002, 01:12 PM

I have not heard of Narvi before, but I trust you. When I think closer, I do remember something of a dwarf working together with Celebrimbor. And now I know his name. Thanks! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ]

Nufaciel · 05-18-2002, 01:17 PM

Yeah, you're right, it's Narvi!

Daniel Telcontar · 05-18-2002, 01:40 PM

I am curious. Where did you find the name Narvi?

Elendur · 05-18-2002, 02:03 PM

It is in The Fellowship of The Ring when Gandalf is reading the company what is written on the doors. It says something like "I, Narvi, made these doors. Celebrimbor drew the symbols." That is not exact so you will have to go back and read for yourself.

Daniel Telcontar · 05-18-2002, 02:13 PM

Thanks. Now that I see your post, I remember that part. I ave another question for you, Elendur. I saw some people debating Elendur's esquire, and it took me some time before I realized that Elendur and Isildur are the same person. Why is Elendur used as another name for Isildur? Or am I totally wrong?

Daniel Telcontar · 05-18-2002, 02:31 PM

Thanks Elendur, your name brother seems to have been a great guy!!

VanimaEdhel · 05-18-2002, 03:07 PM

*sticks her tongue out* and again someone grabs a question that I actually new the ANSWER to! LOL [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Turin Turambar · 05-18-2002, 06:07 PM

One odd thing is that on the doors of Khazad-Dum the name is Moria (which translates into blackpit) why would the Dwarves write that on the doors of the greatest kingdom in the peak of its glory?

Lindolirian · 05-18-2002, 08:20 PM

Just for those of you wondering the door says:

Quote:

Ennyn Durin Aran Moria: pedo mellon a minno. Im Narvi hain echant: Celebrimboro o Eregion teithant i thiw hin.

Which means, "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter. I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs."

Mankáno · 05-18-2002, 09:07 PM

I think the main reason why the inscription was in elvish was because the dwarves only spoke their language among themselves and they didn't teach it to anybody, they preferred to learn other languages.

Daniel Telcontar, Elendur and Isildur aren't the same person. The name Elendur is quite common, Those that I can remember now:

Isildur's eldest son
The 9th King of Arnor

greyhavener · 05-19-2002, 06:48 AM

Thanks, everyone. That cleared up my question. In over a dozen readings, I totally missed the detail about the door in FOTR.

Another question. What's the best available index for Tolkien's works? "Moria" or "Gates of Moria" wasn't listed in the index in back of ROTK? (Of course my copy is from the sixties, the new ones may be better.)

05-18-2002, 12:30 PM	#1
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	gates of moria question I haven't read all the way through the Sil, the answer is probably in there, but I'm busy, lazy, and curious. This has bothered me for a long time...why is the language above the gates of moria in elvish when it's a dwarvish cave? Elves don't like caves. They don't like dwarves. So why elvish? Someone told me that dwarves don't have their own written language. Is that the reason or is there more to the story? [ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ] __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

05-18-2002, 12:41 PM	#2
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	The dwarves of Moria and the elvensmiths of Eregion had the closest relationship between elves and dwarves. Hence it was an elf (Celebrimbor) who made the dwarven gate and since his people also were to ones to use it mostly (alongside with the dwarves of course), it was made in elven language. It is also possible that the enchantment upon the gate could only be made with elven letters. [ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ] __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

05-18-2002, 01:09 PM	#3
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	That's exactly it, you beat me to the answer! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think that Celebrimbor and....uh, crap I forget his name! Celebrimbor and some other dwarf, oh yeah! Narvi, I think it's Narvi. Well anyway, Celebrimbor and Narvi were said to have the closest relationship between dwarf and elf besides Legolas and Gimli. And Narvi built the west gate of Moria and Celebrimbor drew the signs and designs and stuff. And that's why it's in elvish. __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

05-18-2002, 01:12 PM	#4
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	I have not heard of Narvi before, but I trust you. When I think closer, I do remember something of a dwarf working together with Celebrimbor. And now I know his name. Thanks! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ] __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

05-18-2002, 01:17 PM	#5
Nufaciel Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 133	Yeah, you're right, it's Narvi! __________________ Member of Pervy Elf Fanciers Anonymous...I need professional help.

05-18-2002, 01:40 PM	#6
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	I am curious. Where did you find the name Narvi? __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

05-18-2002, 02:03 PM	#7
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	It is in The Fellowship of The Ring when Gandalf is reading the company what is written on the doors. It says something like "I, Narvi, made these doors. Celebrimbor drew the symbols." That is not exact so you will have to go back and read for yourself. __________________ Son of Isildur.

05-18-2002, 02:13 PM	#8
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Thanks. Now that I see your post, I remember that part. I ave another question for you, Elendur. I saw some people debating Elendur's esquire, and it took me some time before I realized that Elendur and Isildur are the same person. Why is Elendur used as another name for Isildur? Or am I totally wrong? __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

05-18-2002, 02:31 PM	#9
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Thanks Elendur, your name brother seems to have been a great guy!! __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

05-18-2002, 03:07 PM	#10
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,473	sticks her tongue out and again someone grabs a question that I actually new the ANSWER to! LOL [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

05-18-2002, 06:07 PM	#11
Turin Turambar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: U.S.A Posts: 24	One odd thing is that on the doors of Khazad-Dum the name is Moria (which translates into blackpit) why would the Dwarves write that on the doors of the greatest kingdom in the peak of its glory? __________________ "Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." The sword Gurthang

05-18-2002, 09:07 PM	#13
Mankáno Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tirion Posts: 30	I think the main reason why the inscription was in elvish was because the dwarves only spoke their language among themselves and they didn't teach it to anybody, they preferred to learn other languages. Daniel Telcontar, Elendur and Isildur aren't the same person. The name Elendur is quite common, Those that I can remember now: Isildur's eldest son The 9th King of Arnor

05-19-2002, 06:48 AM	#14
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	Thanks, everyone. That cleared up my question. In over a dozen readings, I totally missed the detail about the door in FOTR. Another question. What's the best available index for Tolkien's works? "Moria" or "Gates of Moria" wasn't listed in the index in back of ROTK? (Of course my copy is from the sixties, the new ones may be better.) __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8