The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2003, 06:30 AM   #161
Wolf Larson
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Iron Moutians
Posts: 23
Wolf Larson has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Are the Drakes of Fire and Iron that Melko used agaist Gondolin counted at all?

If not, certianly the Balrogs.

A Balrog has wings too. They would not have been given them if they were unable to use them (Morgoth is too cunning for that), however, because the records do not show that they were used on a large scale they may have been used only when needed.

[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: Wolf Larson ]
__________________
In order to gain victory, understanding must be attained.
Wolf Larson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2003, 07:44 AM   #162
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Tolkien

I'm probably going to regret this...

Quote:
It can probably fly, though I can't recall any instances where they did.
Since you cannot recall any instances where they did (and there are not any, I assure you) you really cannot say that they can probably fly. It is a case of having a distinct lack of evidence.

[ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2003, 08:18 AM   #163
Alakhriveion TMA
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12
Alakhriveion TMA has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Alakhriveion TMA
Tolkien

This is ridiculous. Balrogs are Anuir, and Dragons are mortal creations of Morgoth. If that's not clear enough, Miar don't really die. They are either banished of return to Valinor. No such thing happened to Smaug. Also, the dragons would be incapable of battling the Balrogs, as they were lesser servants of Morgoth. I use the term "lesser" rather loosely, but the Balrog could simply order a dragon about. A direct confronation seems rather unlikely. Lastly, what kind of Dragon? A Cold-Drake might have a better chance if, say, they were pitted against each other. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
This message sent to you on the fins of the ferrets of Morgoth.
and
Bill Gates is Evil!!!
Alakhriveion TMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2003, 01:24 PM   #164
Afrodal Fenyar
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 94
Afrodal Fenyar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I don't think that a balrog could have ordered a dragon. Sauron, who was the mightiest of Melkor's servants, never tried it, which I think means he couldn't, or that it would have been very hard for him. If Sauron couldn't how could a balrog? Of course when Morgoth was still in Middle-Earth a balrog could have done that as Morgoth's lieteutenant, but not after the War of Wrath.

Besides, the balrogs never leave their bodies, or at least it isn't mentioned. I think this means they were sort of incarnated, like the istari, and therefore can be killed. I'm pretty much sure the fall from Zirak-Zigil was Durin's bane's last fall.
__________________
"Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"

~Eomer
Afrodal Fenyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2003, 02:23 PM   #165
Alakhriveion TMA
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12
Alakhriveion TMA has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Alakhriveion TMA
Sting

Yes, but Sauron might not have been aware of the existance of surviving Dragons. At the time of Smaug and Bilbo, has was in the middle of a battle with Gandalf at Dol Guldur (correct my spelling), and didn't have the Ring, making him unable to give orders, period. And the Istari can be killed, but Gandalf was sent back to ME, and Saruman was banished.
__________________
This message sent to you on the fins of the ferrets of Morgoth.
and
Bill Gates is Evil!!!
Alakhriveion TMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2003, 03:17 PM   #166
Aule
Wight
 
Aule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Hammering away in Valinor
Posts: 126
Aule has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I am very sure he was aware of them, thats why Gandalf wanted to get rid of Smaug cause he was afraid that Sauron mya use him in any futur battles
__________________
For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall
Aule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2003, 04:50 PM   #167
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Tolkien

Quote:
Dragons are mortal creations of Morgoth
As I'm sure you noted above, there is some dissension over that particular issue.

Quote:
No such thing happened to Smaug.
Prove it.

Quote:
Also, the dragons would be incapable of battling the Balrogs, as they were lesser servants of Morgoth. I use the term "lesser" rather loosely, but the Balrog could simply order a dragon about.
Again, as noted above there, is some dissension over which was "lesser."

As for Balrogs ordering Dragons about, we have examples of both.

Quote:
In front of the fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs...
-from "Of the Ruin of Beleriand"
Balrogs were in Glaurung's train (meaning they were assigned to follow and obey him.)

Obviously Gothmog commanded Dragons at the Fall of Gondolin.

So, we have examples of both.

Quote:
Lastly, what kind of Dragon?
I believe that the direction of the discussion tended toward the Great Dragons, and not those of lesser brood.

Quote:
Besides, the balrogs never leave their bodies, or at least it isn't mentioned. I think this means they were sort of incarnated, like the istari, and therefore can be killed. I'm pretty much sure the fall from Zirak-Zigil was Durin's bane's last fall.
You are correct.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2003, 06:07 AM   #168
the witch king
Wight
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor
Posts: 201
the witch king has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye

Dragons all the way!

But i do think it matters which Dragon and which Balrog.
__________________
'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.
the witch king is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2003, 02:17 PM   #169
ArcticWyrm
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

I Have to go with Balrogs. They are the closest thing LoTR has to Demons, so I think they could eventually take down a dragon.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2003, 06:34 PM   #170
Hennet Dragonborn
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Tolkien

Balrogs were the personal servicemen of Morgoth. They were mainly dormant in his abscence. Dragons, on the other hand, had a free (and reckless, i might add) will. Also, dragons varied much in color, power, and ability. Not as true with Balrogs. Sure, they varied in strength, but there size remained in the same ballpark and I've never heard of a blue Balrog (kind of fun to think about though, eh?). And, obviously, I am biased towards dragons *cough* *screen name* *cough*. So, dragons all the way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2003, 03:41 AM   #171
Sharkû
Hungry Ghoul
 
Sharkû's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,721
Sharkû has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

This isn't really a thread for _opinions_. If it were, it wouldn't have gone to five pages in Books; five pages worth reading.
Sharkû is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2004, 07:34 PM   #172
SuperMaiario
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

I think all this can be solved with a single quote from Peregrin Took. "Even the mightiest warrior may be slain by a single arrow." booya.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:24 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.