Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”

[jallanite]

In the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”, I posted in part in response to a remark by Mithadan on errors in The Lord of the Rings. See the pertinent part of my post here:

The 50th anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings, also published in paperback, contains on pages xvi to xvii a “Note on the 50ᵗʰ Anniversary Edition” by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull on their fixing of various errors in the text. Most of the changes are minor typographical corrections(?). They have been very conservative in their editing and every change has been approved by Christopher Tolkien. They note on page xvii:

Most of the demonstrable errors noted by Christopher Tolkien in The History of Middle-earth also have been corrected, such as the distance from the Brandywine Bridge to the Ferry (ten miles rather than twenty) and the number of Merry’s ponies (five rather than six). But those inconsistencies of content, such as Gimli’s famous (and erroneous) statement in Book III, Chapter 7, ‘Till now I have hewn naught but wood since I have left Moria’, which would require rewriting to emend rather than simple correction, remain unchanged.

All the emendations are listed with short explanations in “Changes to the Editions of 2004–5” published on pages 783–912 of Hammond and Scull’s The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion.

There are other contradictions not fixed as requiring too much rewriting.

For example, in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past” Tolkien has Gandalf explain:

A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too.

Yet we later learn that at that time Gandalf has been secretly bearing a Ring of Power for close to two thousand years, a Ring given him freely by Círdan its keeper. Either Tolkien intends Gandalf to be uniquely lying, has accidentally typed “A Ring of Power” instead of something like “One of Sauron’s Rings”, intends the reader to understand that Gandalf has made a slip of the tongue, or perhaps had not yet invented the idea that Gandalf was secretly bearing an Elvish Ring of Power freely given to him by Círdan its keeper.

I can bring up other contradictions within The Lord of the Rings and still more in The Hobbit and between The Lord of the Rings and the published Silmarillion if you wish.

There was a large response to this post some positive and some negative. I was effectively accused of hijacking the thread, which was not my intent but was what mostly happened.

Since many Barrow-downers seemingly did and do wish to discuss this subject, it seemed to me the best thing was to open a separate thread on this subject, so that hopefully the original subject-matter of “The Effect of the Great Ring” may be continued without being affected by this sub-discussion.

Hammond and Scull’s original note appears on page 87 of the The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion:

55 (I:64). its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing and really done it. – This is true of the One Ring, but not of all Rings of Power, of which Gandalf seems to be speaking generally. Celebrimbor gave away the Three Rings. Círdan gave his Ring to Gandalf, Gil-galad (when dying) gave his to Elrond, and Thrór gave his Ring to Thráin.

To follow the arguments that arose from this, read most of #15 to #32 in the thread: “The Effect of the Great Ring”.

Note that my own opinions have somewhat changed over the course of this discussion but I still see this as a contradiction, along with Hammond and Scull, if the words which Tolkien gives to Gandalf are taken fully literally. If we assume that Frodo is not supposed have been able to recall in exact detail what Gandalf said, we might imagine Gandalf’s words as something like: “A Ring of Power held by a mortal looks after itself, Frodo” instead of “A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo.”

I wish I had thought earlier of the possibility of starting a new thread, Hopefully this will allow “The Effect of the Great Ring” to continue without discussing Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”.

[Inziladun]

I'm still of the mind that the Three are not ultimately comparable in most ways with Rings of Power as Gandalf meant in the context of his conversation with Frodo.

There, Gandalf was trying to explain how the (One) Ring came to Bilbo, then to Frodo. Certainly the Nine and the Seven, laden as they were with Sauron's power, would have done his will. That could hardly have been accomplished if their bearers had been able to throw them away or give them to another when they chose.

The Three were, of course, not actually made by Sauron, and he never touched them. Their powers were different from the rings he had more of a hand in making, and I really don't see why there need be any contradiction where the Three are concerned.

[Belegorn]

I don't know. This seems it will need more looking into. What is known is that all the "Rings of Power" were forged based on some sort of design contrived by Sauron and that Sauron himself had a hand in the forging of the One and all the others, except the Three which Celebrimbor himself made. Even though Sauron had no hand in the forging of the Three it still had his imprint in design. I think therefore all of the other Rings, like the One, would have the same or similar effects on mortals, excluding the Dwarves. The Three, however, not so much but they were linked to the One based on their design so that they could all in some manner control the bearers through Sauron wielding the One. It may appear that Gandalf is contradicting himself, but he may not be, or he may be. As of now I do not think so. I think he is speaking in truth as concerning the One and all the "Rings of Power" in which Sauron had a direct hand in the making. Again with the Dwarves the design failed to implement to some degree.

"And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them. The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows." [Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the third Age]

Thus I disagree with the Note of Hammand and Scull.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If we assume that Frodo is not supposed have been able to recall in exact detail what Gandalf said, we might imagine Gandalf’s words as something like: “A Ring of Power held by a mortal looks after itself, Frodo” instead of “A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo.”

Except Dwarves are mortal as well.

I think really that the original supposition is correct: dormitat Homerus. Ch 2 was written long before Tolkien had considered where the story was going generally, much less in detai. I seriously doubt that at the time he had thought up (a) Thror passing his ring to Thrain, which appeared first in 'The Quest of Erebor' ca. 1954, or (b) Gandalf as a ringbearer, first realized on paper during the writing of the last chapter, and how he got it from Cirdan written even later in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.'

Of course, we can ret-con to our taste, and I think Belegorn's post covers it pretty well.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Except Dwarves are mortal as well.

Yes, technically, but Tolkien generally does not stress this as he does with Men and Hobbits. For example Tolkien has Gandalf say, “Nine he gave to mortal Men”, but earlier he says, “Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed”, not “Seven the mortal Dwarf-kings possessed” or “Seven the mortal Dwarves possessed”.

[jallanite]

Tolkien writes on page 59:

Yes, alas! through him [Gollum] the Enemy has learned that the One has been found again. He knows where Isildur fell. He knows where Gollum found this ring. He knows that it is a Great Ring, for it gave long life.

This implies that only the “Great Rings” give long life to a mortal, whether Man or Hobbit, not one of the lesser rings or some other ring-shaped charm. Earlier, on page 47, Gandalf refers to “the Great Rings, the Rings of Power”, as though they are synonyms for the same things. Now we are told that they alone give “long life”, for Gandalf makes the gift of “long life” evident proof that the Ring possessed by Sauron is one of the “Great Rings.”

But could Gollum’s Ring be one of the other nineteen “Great Rings” which also give long life? Gandalf indicates not. Tolkien makes Gandalf continue immediately following on the same page:

He [Sauron] knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil.

Also the Three, according the Waldman letter, “did not confer invisibility”. But Tolkien is not discussing such matters, only the ability of all the Great Rings and only the Great Rings to give long life.

Gandalf is made to continue:

He [Sauron] knows that it is not one of the Seven, or the Nine. for they are accounted for.

Gandalf has earlier explained on page 51:

Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he [Sauron] has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.

So Gandalf now makes clear:

He [Sauron] knows that it [the Ring won from Gollum by Bilbo] is the One.

Yet Gandalf on page 55 declares of “A Ring of Power”, which is elsewhere in this chapter a synonym for “Great Ring”, has never in all history been freely given up by its keeper save when Bilbo gave up the Ring of Power he possessed to Frodo.

Hammond and Scull state:

This is true of the One Ring, but not of all Rings of Power, of which Gandalf seems to be speaking generally. Celebrimbor gave away the Three Rings. Círdan gave his Ring to Gandalf, Gil-galad (when dying) gave his to Elrond, and Thrór gave his Ring to Thráin.

I have restated the problem more clearly as I see it.

Zigûr’s attempted answer seems to me to depend on Gandalf using “Rings of Power” to refer only to Sauronic rings, which I don’t see on further study. And he does not account for Thrór giving up his Ring to Thráin. See #21 in the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”.

Findegil answer in the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring” seems to me to merely accept that Gandalf is lying, but for good reasons. This works, but seems to go against Gandalf’s truthfulness elsewhere. See #30 in the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”.

Inziladun’s explanation does not fit with Gandalf’s own explanation of the powers of the Rings.

Morthoron’s attempt at explanation I do not understand at all. He asks:

So why would Gandalf confuse Frodo with provisos, quid pro quos, caveat emptors and various other Latin phrases that may or may not have anything to do with what Gandalf was talking about and what he needed to impress upon Frodo so that the Hobbit could achieve his mission?

Gandalf doesn’t do this and no-one, certainly not me, thinks he should.

My own answer would be blamed by me for changing the text which many would call cheating. Very weak.