Ents

[Evisse the Blue]

As much as I would like to comply with the board rules, it appears that I have to start a new topic in order to have someone answer me.

I posted this originally in the 'origins of ents' thread:

Treebeard says at least twice that he is the oldest thing in ME ( I don't have the exact quote though)
How do you reconcile this with Tom Bombadil being the oldest and the Elves being the First born?
ALso, what exactly is the relationship between trees and ents? Ents are said to be the 'shepards of trees' but they themsleves can become trees and vice versa. Hoomm, confusing...

[Galorme]

Ok ok keep your chainmail on. I am not sure that treebeard says he is the oldest thing. He says that he one of the oldest ents perhaps, and that ents are one of the oldest races. The ents, like the dwarfs, only awoke at the same time as the elves, so they are as old as the elves. What exactly Tom is is debatable. Personelly i agree with others who have said he is one of the Ainur who never became a valar or a maia, probably because he did not desire to rule or look after anything other than his little patch of earth, where all his power is focus. But thats a tale for another day.

Shepards of the Trees they were indeed. They were devises by Yavanna, the "God" (Valar) of living things. They were made to protect the trees against mass deforestation etc from the Children and the Dwarves. So they are shepards not in they guide them, but they protect them and care for them and love them with all their oaky hearts.

Ents cannot become trees anymore than we can, but they can become treeish, where they basically go to sleep for long periods of time and rairly wake up. Elves tought the Ents language, but they didn't "create" them by doing so, as many people have suggested. They did, however, talk to some of the trees, which may make up a section of the huons (is that the spelling?), together with the treeish ents.

To be hounist i think that the new boards rules are a little strict, as while this is a place for in depth discusion of ME, it is also a place to socialise and have fun. (they're trying to build a prison another prison system for you and me to live in [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

[O'Boile]

Gandalf says that Treebeard is the oldest thing in Middle earth. I don't know how to reconcile that with Tom Bombadil, but the elves that are left in middle earth are all younger than Treebeard. There are older elves, but they are no longer in middle earth.

[*Varda*]

Well, if Treebeard said that he was the oldest thing in Middle Earth, perhaps Tom Bombadil isn't from Middle Earth? I know there have been endless discussions over whether he's Maia or whatnot, and if he was he wouldn't be from Middle Earth. But even so, there are other maia, and he wouldn't be the first. So confusing. But I don't want to turn this into a 'what is Tom' thread so, I'll leave you to your thoughts.

[Mister Underhill]

Gandalf appears to be excluding “supernatural” beings from the mix – after all, is he himself not older than Treebeard? What about Saruman and Sauron? As for Treebeard’s claims for himself, I have to haul out my Letters quote for the second time in as many days:

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.

[Evisse the Blue]

To be hounist i think that the new boards rules are a little strict, as while this is a place for in depth discusion of ME, it is also a place to socialise and have fun. (they're trying to build a prison another prison system for you and me to live in )

Yea! Downers, stand up for your rights! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Just kiddin' - don't banish me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Eol]

If I recall, I rememeber that Ents being mention towards the end of the Silmarillion in the Valaquenta. So, they have been around for quite a while.

I suppose we can debate how old Treebeard is until we are blue. There is really no text to say yea or nay on any idea beyond the fact he is old.

[Tirned Tinnu]

Comparing Tom to The Ents in age is done rightfully so. Tom is described as the Eldest, and so is Treebeard. The difference, though, is found in Tom's description of himself. He was there before the Dark before the Darkness, he says. This places him in the presence of Illuvitar, or perhaps as some have suggested, he is Illuvitar on holiday. We don't know. Please try a google search on Tom Bombadil. There are at least 50 different links out on the web, all discussing Tom and who or what he might be.

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[Mister Underhill]

Gandalf says of Treebeard:

Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth.

This is by no means claiming that Treebeard was "first". Also, there's a certain patent untruth to this statement. Gandalf, Sauron, and Saruman are all demonstrably "older" in terms of their spirits. Does Treebeard make the claim of Eldest for himself? I haven't seen the quote. In fact, his references to Elves "waking trees up" and curing them of "dumbness" clearly imply that in his mind the Elves were there first.

[Galorme]

Anyone who cares to read the Sil will learn that the ents AWOKE AT THE SAME TIME OF THE ELVES. You can even work out Exactly how old that is if you care to scan the Grey Annuals and the Tales of Years and Kings. I wont but i am sure someone else will if they have time.

[Tirned Tinnu]

Ooofah, nono, I didn't even say anything about treebeard, and I should have.
I can spot you there, for when Celeborn and Galadriel went by to meet him with Gandalf, King Elessar, and group, Celeborn answers Treebeard's now famous speech "For the world is changing, I smell it in the air, I.." (that was made into Galadriel's quote at the beginning of the new movie) he says, "I do not know, Eldest."
That should prove your point right there.

[Mister Underhill]

Treebeard's "list":

Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
First name the four, the free peoples:
Eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses.