The One and the Three

[Tirinor]

If the Elven rings were crafted in secret, independent of Sauron, how is their power related to the One ring? Why would Elrond and Galadriel's "reign" begin to diminish if the One ring was destroyed? Maybe I'm making some inaccurate assumptions, but it seems that the inevitable diminishment of the ringed Elves' kingdoms upon the destruction of the One ring is implied on more than one occasion. If this is so, then it would seem that the power of the Elven rings comes from Sauron and the One ring.

But how can that be if they were crafted independently of Sauron?

Where do they get their power from if it was not from Sauron?

[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Tirinor ]

[Merri]

I remember reading somewhere that Sauron was well aware of the Elven rings- I think he was deeply involved in their creation. He thought he could manipulate the Elves through those three rings.

But my knowledge is sketchy at best, so I'm probably wrong.

[Manwe Sulimo]

The Three were made by Celebrimbor, and were hidden before Sauron could pervert them. However, being Rings of Power, they were still tied to the One (as were the Seven and the Nine). Once the Ruling Ring was destroyed, the Three lost their powers. A good analogy would be cutting off a beast's head -- the other body parts die, as well.

[Manardariel]

If so, could Frodo (or whoever), if he put on the ring, boss around Galadriel?
That´s a scary thought.... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Seriosly, though. COULD HE???????

[Galorme]

Well no, it is implied that only the very powerful could use the ring. But in a small scale he could boss around Gollum. Gandalf and Saruman, and perhaps others, would be able to use the ring to boss around the ringbearers, or at least to expose them from their hidden realms (which is what Sauron could do if he reclaimed the ring). At any rate anyone who could control the rign could control the wills of others.

[Kuruharan]

However, it should be noted that Gandalf is the only one mentioned as having the necessary will to master the Ring. And even then Sauron does not go away. He still has to be defeated. If somebody else tried to master the Ring, the Ring would just string them along until they were in a position for Sauron to take it back.

[Fingo]

This is a slightly different point, but what if Galadriel had taken the Ring from Frodo? She would have two rings of power, correct? What kind of affect would that have, on her, the Rings, and/or Frodo? That's probably a whole new thread though.

[ambi]

In that case galadriel wld be able to control the one ring and her own elven ring (was this nenya?)

There wld be no conflict of power due to 2 rings. She wld become a Dark Queen and make Middle Earth her own kingdom.

Maybe she wldnt kill Frodo as such, but to see his ring on Galadriel's hand will destroy his mind (even tho he himself offered it to her).

[Galorme]

You think? I am not so sure. Biblo gave up the ring voluntarily, and this did him a world of good, saving him from a lot of the tortures other ring bearers faced. I wonder if Frodo would have been so damaged if he had actually tossed the ring instead of claiming it then loosing it.

[ January 02, 2003: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Arwen Imladris]

I wonder if Frodo would have been so damaged if he had actually tossed the ring instead of claiming it then loosing it.

He still would have been damaged, perhaps not quite so much, but even if he had not actually claimed the ring he would have been very close. There is also the sword wound in his shoulder, the sting from Shelob and all of the other hardships during his journey. Anyother reason why he left ME is because when he got back to hobbiton, he did not try to fit in. He was not recognised as being important in his own country therefor it was much harder for him to heal.

If so, could Frodo (or whoever), if he put on the ring, boss around Galadriel?

i doubt it very much, but only because frodo wasn't a powerful wizard ruler or of high elven blood. but if we were to say that Galadriel/Gandalf/Elrond were to recive the ring , wear and master it, they would have controll over the lesser two. i find it more likly that if one of these three had taken the ring to themselves they would have given their orginal ring to another and been able to control it's power proxy so to speak, rather then keep both the ruleing ring and one to the three. as an added bouns they would be able to order the nazugal around, so taking care of sauron wouldn't be hard as it sounds, providing that there was time to fully master the ring before sauron could make a counter attack

[Mandos]

Could not one who mastered the One bend even Sauron to his/her will since there is indeed a strong link between the ring and Sauron because of his own power that Sauron poured into the ring in its forging?

This may come as a stupid question to the veterans here, but why does th eOne Ring make certain peopole disapear, while others are unaffected? Such as Frod, Bilbo, and Gollum could vanish and Sauron and Tom Bombadil didn't vanish. Is it because of the power one contains in themselves? Is it that Frodo was weak and Tom was strong?

[Mandos]

In a sense yes. The stronger the person (an Istari, one of High Elven Blood) could have more power and could use the ring more. Tom didnt vanish because the ring had no power over him. Tom simply didnt remotely care anything about the ring so it couldnt manipulate or use him.

[Tirinor]

The Three were made by Celebrimbor, and were hidden before Sauron could pervert them. However, being Rings of Power, they were still tied to the One (as were the Seven and the Nine). Once the Ruling Ring was destroyed, the Three lost their powers. A good analogy would be cutting off a beast's head -- the other body parts die, as well.

I can see how that might be a good analogy for the other rings, but still don't see it for the three elven rings. If they were crafted in secret, why and how do they have any relation to the One ring? Did they secretly steal some of Sauron's power to fuel their own? I don't see that happening.

An analogy along the lines of what I'm thinking is more like - A bunch of McDonalds franchises being supplied by a cental distribution network, and then, over here, you have three Burger Kings (with their own franchise hub). If McDonalds goes down, Burger King is still good. likewise, if Mcdonalds is successful (powerful) due to it's efficient distribution center, Burger King isn't nessesarily successful, and if they are, it has nothing to do with McDonalds' central distribution network. Burger King is independent, good or bad from Mcdonald's power source.

The Three Rings, being crafted independently, would seem to have no relation, good or bad, to Sauron's One ring of power. But the text claims they are related. How?

[Kuruharan]

The Three Rings, being crafted independently, would seem to have no relation, good or bad, to Sauron's One ring of power. But the text claims they are related. How?

The connection is that Sauron was the one who gave them the idea in the first place. He played on the Elven desire to preserve the past. This resistance to change was in a way going against the will of Iluvatar. Doing so naturally made them fall into Sauron's court since he was the current Big Evil Guy. Sauron's mere presence in matters was enough to taint the Three.

Could not one who mastered the One bend even Sauron to his/her will since there is indeed a strong link between the ring and Sauron because of his own power that Sauron poured into the ring in its forging?

Bending the will of Sauron and bending the will of the Ring were not the same thing. Sauron remained greater than his Ring. The ring greatly amplified his power, it was in some sense a part of him, but he was still greater than it was. That's the reason why anyone who successfully mastered the Ring would still have to fight Sauron to become King of the World. The Ring was designed to control the other Rings. It was not designed to control Sauron.

[Mandos]

Why then if Sauron was greater than the ring did he not come and take it? Why then did he need it at all? No, the ring held the very essence of the dark lord. Agreeably he was powerful without it, but not that powerful. The ring was greater than him.

[Tirinor]

The connection is that Sauron was the one who gave them the idea in the first place. He played on the Elven desire to preserve the past. This resistance to change was in a way going against the will of Iluvatar. Doing so naturally made them fall into Sauron's court since he was the current Big Evil Guy. Sauron's mere presence in matters was enough to taint the Three.

I don't buy it. While it is possible that there might be an inherent danger to the Three Rings due to their creation being founded in a possibly dangerous philosophy, it doesn't follow that the existance of the One ring, or Sauron himself, would have direct influence on them for good or bad as described in the text.

[Mandos]

I agree.

The Silmarillion answers this question pretty clearly:

"Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could precieve all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them."

and later referring to the Elves:

"...they were aware of him; and they knew him, and percieved that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought."

and, referring to the 3 elven rings:

"...the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One."


It is true that Sauron himself never touched the Three, but it was through his knowledge that Celebrimbor was able to craft the rings in the first place. Sauron used Celebrimbor skills and knowledge, just as Celebrimbor used Sauron's. He never touched the Three but it was through his techniques that they were forged. He surely knew what went into them and knew what would be necessary to control them when crafting his own master ring.

If that is not good enough in itself, in Tolkien's letters,


Tolkien Letter 131
"The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility. But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them. He reckoned, however, without the wisdom and subtle perceptions of the Elves. The moment he assumed the One, they were aware of it, and of his secret purpose, and were afraid. They hid the Three Rings, so that not even Sauron ever discovered where they were and they remained unsullied. The others they tried to destroy."

There ya go.

[Tirinor]

Now we're getting somewhere.

Thanks, surjay.

[Mandos]

When you quoted Tolkien and mentioned "the others they tried to destroy", were there other rings made by the elves or lesser races that they ( the elves ) tried to destory? This is an interesting thing that perhaps there were other say lesser rings forged.

[Kuruharan]

Why then if Sauron was greater than the ring did he not come and take it? Why then did he need it at all? No, the ring held the very essence of the dark lord. Agreeably he was powerful without it, but not that powerful. The ring was greater than him.

We seem to be dueling across the course of several different threads. Makes the boards more interesting, I suppose.

He did not come and take it because he did not know exactly where it was. Which is sort of odd because he was searching for it so carefully with his spirit, and drawing off of it, but there seemed to be something about somebody else having to wear the Ring in order for him to be able to really pin it down. Frodo's experience on Amon Hen is a good example of this.

He needed the Ring because he put so much of his power into it. I did not mean to say (or sound like I said) that Sauron was not considerably weakened in native strength when he created the Ring, or not greatly weakened without it. Obviously he was. What I intended to get across was that Sauron's power was greater than the Ring in the sense that he was not subservient to the power of the Ring. The Ring could not be used to control him, that was not what it was designed for. It was designed to control the other Rings. Assuming that Gandalf did gain mastery over the Ring (and apparently he is the only one who could) this did not give him power over Sauron. Sauron would still be Sauron, still in possession of the power that was still his own, which perhaps meant that he would still have his armies of orcs, and probably meant all of the peoples of Men who were enthralled to him.

Letter #246 discusses this issue if you want to check the sub-creator.

[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Tirinor]

Sauron's One ring was powered by the personal power that Sauron had. He invested his power into the ring, thereby rendering himself less powerful if he was parted from his ring. What power was invested into the Elvish rings? Would certain Elves be lacking in inherent power if seperated from their ring as Sauron was to his ring? It seems like that would be the case considering Sauron's circumstances, and also considering Melkor's circumstances when he invested his power into Ungoliant.
I still don't understand how the Elves could make their rings first, and seperate, and yet if the One ring was destroyed the Elve's rings would lose their power. Especially if the power invested in them was their own. what surjay said about the craft and techniques being learned from Sauron has some merits, but doesn't seem fully developed. and Tolkien's own quote "almost solely of their own imagination" seems to contradict that, or at least merit a further explaination.

Maybe I'm looking for something that is not there, maybe surjay's quotes are all there is.

My wife, who has only seen the movies, asked me why the Elve's kingdoms would diminish after the destruction of the ring, and I couldn't give her an answer that passes the test of reason and consistency. I still don't feel like I can. Maybe an adequate explaination of ring relations will remain as mysterious as "if Balrogs had wings?" Or maybe I'm the only one out there who doesn't get it.

please, keep throwing out ideas, I'm still very interested.

But he said "almost solely" and I think a lot of the 'imagination' used by them was for the beautiful appearances of the rings and the powers that were chosen for each. The fact remains that without Sauron's initial help and knowledge, Celebrimbor would not of been able to craft the rings as he did. Sauron and Celebrimbor's early partnership was a sharing of many abilities and information that each would not of had without their contact and their work together.

They both forged the lesser rings together, improving their combined skills as time passed until they both felt they had learned all that was necessary of the other. Celebrimbor now had enough knowledge and skill to forge rings of power by himself, free without Sauron because he had been taunt all he needed to know to do so. The point here is that Sauron did not reveal all and was still much more powerful then Celebrimbor could ever hope to be and he had skills and knowledge that Celebrimbor would have no notion of.

Celebrimbor went and made the Three on his own and they were the greatest made thus far, until Sauron had completed the One. The Three though were made through Sauron's influence and without it, their forging was not possible. Not just anybody can make a great ring of power like this.

[Tirinor]

Well said, Surjay. But even if I agree with all you've said, it still soesn't explain why the elven rings would lose their power after Sauron was destroyed. The knowledge and ability learned from Sauron to craft the rings is not retroactively eradicated when Sauron is removed from the picture. And moe to the point, the creation of the ring has already taken place, even if no other ring of power could ever be created because Sauron is caput, the three rings already exist and already have power.

Yes, but Sauron knew the 'ingredients' of the Three rings, so to speak. He knew how all the rings of power are and were made. He therefore knew 'what' to put into the Master ring to rule and dominate all othe rings, regardless of when they were created. The Three were more powerful then the other lesser rings that Sauron and Celebrimbor made together, but they were still using the same basic ingredients. Just like different cookies may taste better, but their ingredients are going to remain quite similiar.

Here's an example:

Say you are the greatest baker in the World and I am a godlike entity with incredible amounts of power and knowledge. Together we form a shop. You teach me your baking skills and I teach you ways to make them cookies better and more powerful. I teach you things you would never be able to do without me, just as you teach me how to make them cookies taste good. We end up parting ways after we think we know all there is to know of each other.

You go on to make a super batch of cookies that taste greater and are more powerful then the others we made, but you still used the information I gave you to make them along with your own baking knowledge which hasn't changed.

I go on to make the Master Cookie using ALL of my power and knowledge to do so, along with the baking skills I learned from you. I surely would know what ingredients and extra powers to put in there to control ALL cookies made by the skills I passed on.

Therefore, my Master Cookie will still influence your super cookies and since all cookies made by my craft and my passed on knowledge are bound to my Master Cookie, even if they were made before and I didn't personally touch them, If and when my Master Cookie is destroyed, your lesser cookies will diminish because I knew what to put into the Master Cookie to dominate all others and what to put into the Master Cookie to bound all others to it.

I hope that helps.

[Tirinor]

I understand what you are saying, and that may be exzactly what Tolkien had in mind, but I don't like it. It doesn't seem like the cookies I made would be effected by the cookie made by you/god-like entity. It doesn't stand to reason, other than Tolkien said so - so it is. Most of Tolkien's creation is better supported than that.

Here's an analogy I just thought up that makes for a better answer, in my opinion, but is purely speculative for my part. In an episode of the Simpsons, Homer joins the Masons and enjoys the priviledges extended to those of that order. One of those priviledges is a door opener to a secret bypass tunnel to avoid rush hour traffic. What if ME inhabitants function on a "rush hour traffic" power plane? And the supernatural can function in both the "rush hour" plane, and the special plane of power? (So far I don't think this is too wacky, It is pretty clear that the Valar transcend the physical realm of ME to an extent, although my explaination doesn't correspond exactly to that transcendence.) So, perhaps Sauron gave the Elves his passcode, they incorporated it into the construction of their rings, and their rings power is fueled by the supernatural power plane. Their rings' power would not come from Sauron directly, but would be enabled by him. and when Sauron expires, his password expires. And there you have it, the rings can't access the bypass and are stuck in rush hour.

The problem is, it's all speculation. Also, the analogy is a bit shaky, and the power planes and passcodes theory is unsupported by any text that I can think of. All this is to say: the best way I could think of as to how the rings were related doesn't work so great.

[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Tirinor ]

[Tar-Palantir]

I believe the One Ring itself gives us a good enough answer. It is established that Sauron had a part in the creation of the Three, the Seven, and the Nine. Meaning either his taint was on them, or he knew how to taint them. And that I'm sure was his purpose in creating the One Ring, or one of a few purposes with ultimate goal of domination.

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them

I think 'bind them' are the most important words. Once bound then obviously their fates are intertwined. But as far as what method of incantation was used for the binding (which is what it sounds like you want [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) I think it would be simpler to discuss how Gandalf blows blue, red, green, etc. smoke rings - I don't believe there is a satisfactory answer to either question except to say that they both have their fair share of Arcane knowledge.

[Tirinor]

If Sauron wants to play Calvin-ball (Calvin and Hobbes referemce) and say "I'm more powerful so my ring rules your ring." I might be able to let that slide, but my big concern is why the rings would diminish. if I have a tv remote control and you come along with a tv remote that is more powerful than mine, and over-rides mine - then ok you win. but when your remote is destroyed, why would mine be bothered by it, if anything it would benefit. To say "my remote also has an elven ring destruct mode for when/if it gets destroyed" is too convenient, too arbitrary.

[Mandos]

LOL. I love the tv remote example. What you say is true. I wonder why Tolkien didnt clarify this? Unless perhaps in some way, the One Ring may have altered the Three in some way to effect them if the One was destroyed? Perhaps Tolkien purposely left this here for us to worry about.

[Tar-Palantir]

Hey Tirinor,I also like the TV remote analogy [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], in fact I use three remote controls - tv, vcr, and dvd? I need to get a "One Remote", lol.

I have two other thoughts, the first comes simply from how I envision it, rather than anything I can pull from the books. And involves thinking of all the rings as part of one whole. As if from first conception they (all 20 rings) were forged upon a framework of the finished product. And when A crux piece (ala, the One Ring) is removed, the whole construct collapses or diminishes. A good visual might be the spokes of a wheel with the One Ring as the hub. I don't know if you've played any D&D (been over a decade since I have) but it's easy to visualize this using their concept of the magical 'weave' whereby all spellcasters learn their craft in terms of accessing and manipulating this one source. oh sorry, now I'm babbling, I'm sure you get what I mean.

My second thought is just a comparison. When the One Ring was tossed in the Cracks of Doom how is it that Sauron was any less powerful than he was before? He wasn't in possession of the Ring during his Third Age stint in Mordor, he did much without it. Yet as soon as it's tossed, he is forced from Mordor, his minions scatter, etc... I am sure there is a simply answer, but it seems similar to the 'One and the Three' scenario.

And if the answer to my second comparison is "because the Ring and the Dark Lord are one" then doesn't that answer the curious question of diminishing Rings? (Since they are all bound, they are one, no?)

I think I confused myself a little, (I've never thought so hard about Tolkein until I joined this board a few days ago!) but let me know what you think! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Tirinor]

When the One Ring was tossed in the Cracks of Doom how is it that Sauron was any less powerful than he was before? He wasn't in possession of the Ring during his Third Age stint in Mordor, he did much without it. Yet as soon as it's tossed, he is forced from Mordor, his minions scatter, etc.

Sauron is powerful without his ring because the ring is still "alive and well." He loses his power when the ring is destroyed because the ring is a container of sorts for a good portion of his power. It's as if you lost your car and your heart was inside. while your car was lost, you wouldn't be able to use it, but if it was destroyed, your heart, being inside the car, would stop working and you would die, or, in Sauron's case, be reduced...

And if the answer to my second comparison is "because the Ring and the Dark Lord are one" then doesn't that answer the curious question of diminishing Rings?

no. not the elven rings.