Who's the oldest?

[lathspell]

The possibility that Bombadil is highly unlikely. There were only 14 (for Mogoth was no longer counted among them) and all of them are 'in the West that is Forgotten'. It says in the Silmarillion that Ulmo was the last of the Valar to go. Nowhere it is said that one of them ever came back, so that rules out the possibility that he was Valar. Personally I find the possibility of Maiar far more believable.

Trees and Flowers? Do we take these into consideration as well? I always thought this was for intelligent beings. I saw above that it was quite agreed that Bombadil and other spirits and Ainur should be left out of this discussion. Than shouldn't this be for intelligent non-(possible) Ainur beings.

In that case I think Rimbaud has made a very good point about the foul things in the deep places of the World. I suddenly remembered good old Shelob [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. Does anyone know how old she is? I don't have the Silmarillion here, so I don't know when it was that she ran away from the Balrogs in Lammoth. Isn't it said as well that she had Children already when she lived in Avatar, before the attack on Valinor when the Trees were destroyed.

Is that is so, are they the oldest intelligent non-Ainur in Arda??

greetings,
lathspell

[lathspell]

The possibility that Bombadil is highly unlikely.

That should of course be: The possibility thatBonbadil is Valar is highly unlikely.

Sorry for the inconvenience!

greetings once more,
lathspell

[Lush]

Dude, burrahobbit answered the Bombadil question ages ago. Right here.

[GildorInglorion]

Shelob should be pretty old, but she is just some kind of children of Ungoliant, the first giant spider that almost killed Morgoth and fled the Balrogs.
Fangorn must be older.

I think it's not beyond any reasonable doubt that Ungoliant ever died, but an implication that she in hunger ate herself!

And Bombadil a vala, no, I agree, that seems to far-fetched (is that an english word???, I mean something like very speculative...). The quote that Ulmo was the last to leave pretty much makes the case.

[Evenstar1]

that seems to far-fetched (is that an english word???,

Yes, GildorInglorion, that is an expression (in American, if not also British English), and you used it correctly. Good job! (I envy those of you who can speak more than one language -- and well, too!)

Back to topic: At the time of the War of the Ring, was Galadriel, then, the oldest of all
the Elves of ME? She would have been older than Shelob, too, right? But not older than Rimbaud's foul things that live in the deep, dark places. (Okay, not Rimbaud's foul things, but Rimbaud was the one who brought this to our attention.) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[lathspell]

Fangorn must be older.

Why?
Ungoliant is, as I see it, older then the Elves. It's in a way the same category as Tom Bombadil. I mean:
- we do not know what she rightly is. Yes, I know, a Giant Spider, but is that all?
- we do not know when she was 'born' or 'created'
- we do not know what happened to her after she fled from the Balrogs

In fact we do not know anything for sure, except that she participated in the attack on Valinor in the First Age, and the tale around it. She may have spawned other Children in Avatar long before Shelob. I asked if that is mentioned in the Sil, for if it is, than these are some of the foul things Rimbaud means, I guess.

greetings,
lathspell

[Helkasir]

I think the maiar is a better idea too. After, Melian had her own little possive fits doriath, never having left the land, and protecting with her little girdle thing.... All I know is that she was protector of doriath as Bombadil the withywindle.

Is there any chance that Melian could BE goldberry?

[lathspell]

I don't think so, Helkasir.

It is said in the Silmarillion that Melian, after the destruction of Doriath, went back to Valinor and, I believe, dwelt there in the woods of Lorien.

greetings,
lathspell

[Laivine]

After having read burrahobbits answer to what Tom Bombadil is, I agree. It makes perfect sense.

At the time of the War of the Ring, was Galadriel, then, the oldest of all the Elves of ME? She would have been older than Shelob, too, right? But not older than Rimbaud's foul things that live in the deep, dark places.

No, Galadriel wasn't the eldest, Cirdan was. Galadriel was born in the west, while Cirdan awoke beside Cuivinen (sp?) but abandoned the march to Valinor...

[Legolas]

Actually Tolkien told us who/what Tom was, long before burrahobbit was born. If you don't take Tolkien's word, good luck.

[Melichus]

No, Galadriel wasn't the eldest, Cirdan was. Galadriel was born in the west, while Cirdan awoke beside Cuivinen (sp?) but abandoned the march to Valinor...

I got the impression that Ingwe, Finwe, and Olwe were the oldest of the elves--or were they just the leaders of the group that Cirdan was a part of? I also stand by my theory that Bombadil was one of the "old creatures dark and strong" that had lasted through the spring of Arda. Of course, his personality must have improved greatly when the times changed a bit...

Also, were the Balrogs Maiar or not? If not, I think they were the oldest non-Maiar/Valar creatures of Arda, since they were created secretly by Morgoth in the depths of Utumno very early on.

Also, how do make the little accents and umlauts over letters?

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Melichus ]

[lathspell]

the Balrogs were Maiar. Morgoth couldn't create things. Only could he corrupt things.

I agree with you, Legalos.

[GildorInglorion]

Great post by Burrahobbit, makes sense. But apart from Bombadill.

I believe Ungoliant was "born" before the first elves, but she is most likely dead. And Ungoliants children could not be older than for example Cirdan. When Ungoliant fled Morgoth's Balrogs, and went to Ered Gorgoroth to mate with other spiders, Cirdan already lived.

But what about the spiders that were fathers of Unoliants children, could any of them still have been around in the fourth age?

In my opinion Cirdan had no father and COULD be as (or almost as) old as Finwë, Elwë and Ingwë. But then he should be older than Fangorn, which he is not accordin to LOTR.
This should suggest that all the "Parentless" (first) elves didn''t wake up at the same time.

There is also an interesting passage in Silmarillion that I find very hard to understand; When Aulë tells Yavanna of the dwarves, Yavanna realises that her beloved trees will be cut down. She talks to Manwë and he tells her about spirits that will live in the trees (the ents). He also talkes about the time when these will inhabit the trees, but I find it confusing. Does anyone understand this better?

Alright. Let's get some things down.
nullRealize that these conclusions are based only on what I've read in these posts.
Tom Bombadil, although decided unimportant to this topic, is described by burrahobbit as the song which is Arda. Therefore, rather than the oldest on Arda, he is Arda.

Balrogs are corrupted Maia.

Treebeard, while not necessarily the oldest being, is the oldest Firstborn still around ME.

Ok. Question, though, did anyone answer the mystery of Shelob? I have not read HoME, are there answers there?

Thanks for your time...

[lathspell]

Do you mean this:

'When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also...'

It states that when the Children of Iluvatar (in this case the Elves) awake, the Ents will awake as well.

hmm... this brings a new question to my mind, but I'll have to read the 'Treebeard'-chapter before I post it.

greetings,
lathspell

[Legolas]

There is nothing that states Cirdan awoke at Cuivienen.

Also, it would appear many of you skipped over my first post here...

Tolkien's words about Treebeard's knowledge, from Letter No. 153:

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came.

Thus, Treebeard's comments on the matter cannot be relied upon. His statements are true as far as he knows, but he does not know all, and we cannot accept all his comments as truth.

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[lathspell]

How do we know if he says things there he doesn't know? Maybe all things he says are true, because he knows those things.
Other things that the Wise know, maybe unknown to him, but if he doesn't know about them he can't speak about it.
I think Treebeard only spoke about things he rightly knew, and left other matters to other persons.

greetings,
lathspell

[Legolas]

He does tell things the best he knows how, but they are not always truthful. It still means we cannot wholly trust what he says.

His song supposedly names all the free peoples, yet he does not know hobbits exist, nor does he know wizards are more than men. Therefore, he obviously would not know of their origins, and leaves the possibility of him not knowing of another race - the hobbits or some other creature could still be older than he is. One must then think - does he know of Tom Bombadil? Seems he wouldn't, since he lives so close to the hobbits, far from Fangorn.

Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
First name the four, the free peoples:
Eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses:

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Matthew2754]

I believe JRR left Bombadil's origin a mystery and should be left there. Any speculation is just pointless guessing, and unless some new writing of Tolkien's is found, we cannot know

[Saurreg]

Interesting thread.

I think the dwarves were older than the ents. It was only after Aule created the seven fathers of the dwarves did Yavanna approach Manwe and asked for assurance for the protection of the trees. The dwarves were put into deep sleep but they were still alive.

I think the oldest creatures on Middle Eaeth aside from the Ainur and Maia (Balrogs were Maia weren't they?) were the creatures that Morgoth corrupted/created before the stars were made.

As for elves teaching Ents how to speak, I won't discount the possiblity that Ents were around longer than elves, but learned from them how to speak.

Birdland, "shepherds of the trees" are the ents [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[tangerine]

Here are the possibilities:

Balrogs: They were created in secret by Melkor well before elves and they may have been created before dwarves and the creatures of Arda's "springtime".

The balrogs were ainu who sided w/ melkor in the beginning; remeber how in Moria Gandalf said that he had met his equal? also, it siad in the silm that Melkor spent all his power in hate, until he was no longer able to create, onlymimic the work of others (i.e. orcs)
Tom was probably a maia-after all, melian, the istari, and sauron were maia, but were still seen by men and elves as very powerful.

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: tangerine ]

[tangerine]

Also, its mentioned that during the Song, Ungoliant sided with Melkor, but went off on her own in Arda and took aspider form.

[Helkahothion]

I don't really know for shure but I think it is treebeard. Because Galadriel called him the oldest, but then you have Tom Bombardil. Well think of it this way. If he is the oldest then his wife must be the oldest too and they never mention that so i'd place my money on treebeard.
________
Easy Vape Vaporizer

[Legolas]

tangerine...power is not basis enough for classification as a Maia.

For more information, refer to uh.. wots a maiar ???/

[*Varda*]

If he is the oldest then his wife must be the oldest too

Helkahothion, why must this be the case? Why are you assuming his wife is exactly the same age as him?

Varda

[GildorInglorion]

I'm rereading LOTR an find something interesting in TTT, when Gandalf tells Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli about his adventures with the balrog.

"Far, far below the deepest delving of the dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. "

[Jurion]

Bombadil: How can Bombadil be a Maia? The Ring has no power over him, but it clearly has power over both Gandalf and Sauron, who are both Maia. If Bombadil was a Maia wouldn't it be logical that the Ring would have power over him as well.

The Ents: The Ents are the oldest living things, they were just normal trees before the elves taught them how to speak and walk. They are older than the elves, because trees did exist before the elves did, but they are in a way younger than the elves because they couldn't speak.

[Galorme]

Jurion nononono. The ents were a different race totally, spirits sent from Eru to guard the growing things from his children, taking Tree form. Tom couldn't be a Maia, who would he serve? He COULD be a Umaia or an Ainur, but he isn't. He is something very different, not from ME or Ea, from somewhere totally different, a totally different story, where he once got eaten by a badger (just saying that to set the scene). He was put into LoTRs to fill a vital hole: the tree hugging, fun loving fat man of course! Oh yeah Oldest non-ainur Speaking being, if Treebeard is a first generation ent then he will be the same age as the oldest elves, and if same with Cirdan (first generation Elf that is).

[ January 13, 2003: Message edited by: Galorme ]

I think in the Silmarillion that the Dwarves were the first born. If I read it correctly. They were just put back to sleep till the time came for them to wake and make their appreance known.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Bombadil is the eldest, as is said. And I do not think that he's an ainu at all, but some enigma - maybe that embodiment of Arda, as burrahobbit suggested? Or some enigma, some strange spirit. Anyways, not an ainu. I think. Eru he is not, as there is no embodiment of Eru in Eä. Treebeard simply cannot be the oldest, because the ents awoke at the same time as elves. Even if he would have been alive as a tree before that, he can't be the oldest, as the trees weren't created in the beginning.

Well, Eru probably is the oldest, but he's not in Arda..

[Noxomanus]

I think they merely mean,he's the oldest remaining being in ME.Meaning,he's one of the first Ents to awake and there are no Elves remaining in ME that are older than him.
dunno about Bombadil...

[Ainaserkewen]

Hey, maybe Tom is a valar or a Maiar or one of them created him to guard the forest. I think he is the oldest that still walks, but the ents were put on middle earth after it was created but before the elves woke up, to shepeard the forests. I'm only part way through the sil too, but I'm gettin there.

Good to see you all and see this topic! I haven't been around here in over a year.

GildorInglorion has made I point that I thought of after reading the first couple of posts. That point has barely been acknowledged, so it should be repeated.

One may be "eldest" without being "eldest sentient".

Trees were around before Elves, we know that. Then the Elves went around awakening the trees, apparently creating Ents. So Treebeard is older than any Elf, even Cirdan, when you count his years as a tree. (Trees, after all, are alive, if not sentient.) But, as a sentient being, Treebeard is younger than the first-awoken Elves.

As for Bombadil, he is as Tolkien stated: An enigma. Fun to speculate about, no doubt; but, in the end, an enigma.

[Iarwain]

Yes, I think that age is all a matter of perspective. If you include Iarwain despite his enigmatic nature, he will be eldest, merely because it is agreed to be so by the White Counsel and Bombadil himself. Also, one must consider the Maiar living in Middle-Earth, Radagast was most likely older than Treebeard, and definately older than any elves.

Iarwain

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Bump

[HerenIstarion]

Well than, I'll give you a hand and update the link provided by Lush in Post #43 Derry Dol, Indeed (or that is the place I believe the link should lead to)

[bilbo_baggins]

Well to embody the replies:

Tom Bombadil is another Ainur (definition of Ainur being a creation of Eru) and he is the oldest (I got this from burrahobbit's post). But not the oldest Non-Valar/Maiar.

Ents and Elves are equal in age, for the Entian spirits were sent to inhabit the special tree carriers and awaken at the time of Awakening (Elvish awakening) and they later learned to speak from the Elves. Learning to speak does not mean they were less mature than the Elves. Is it not said that the Wise hold their tongue, while the foolish speak their folly plainly?

The Dwarves had a preawakening existence, for they cringed at the impending destruction by Aule's hammer. So technically, they are older than the Elves. But were the Entian spirits alive before they were sent to inhabit trees? That's the question; and it boils down to:

Tom Bombadil is older than anything else on Arda, because he IS Ea. Dwarves sorta/kinda outage Elves, but not really. Elves and Ents awaken at the same time and are equal in power. Ungoliant is a Maia, I believe (I can't know for sure).

So if you like to pick nits, "Go Dwarves!"

If you hate technicalities, "Go Elves!" (Ents are sort of like ethereal spirits and come from Eru directly, not like the Elves)

[Beleg]

Well, I would just like some enlightenment on the question.

People answer Galadriel for example. Before Galadriel (and Elves more generally) were other beings like the Valar. Yet, the Valar left Middle-Earth. So, the question is, who is the oldest on Middle-Earth (excluding the Valar but not Tom Bombadil). In this case, yes Galadriel could be the oldest (it is an example as the existence of Bombadil and Fangorn makes this example unlikely)

Or, is it about to discuss who's the oldest since the creation of Arda? I think the oldest are the Ainur without any doubt from that point of view.

If it's to guess who's the oldest being left on ME (so, after the departure of the Valar), maybe we can consider that Sauron is very old. He was one of the Maiar and can be even older than Galadriel.

The Eagles can be very old as well, it is said in the chapter II of the silmarillion:
Manwë speaking to Yavanna Kementari: "Cela aussi reviendra, au gré d'Iluvatar, et avant l'éveil des Enfants les Aigles des Seigneurs de l'Ouest s'élèveront à nouveau comme le vent" (in substance: the Eagles will rise again before the awakening of the children)


Anyway, the debate on Bombadil and Fangorn allows to say that they are maybe one of the few oldest beings left on ME, and maybe Fangorn and the Old Forest were created right after the coming of the Valar (and Bombadil was one of the Maiar who were with them).

I don't think for myself that we will ever be sure who is the oldest between Fangorn and Bombadil. So, i will answer stupidly and in an obvious way: the Ainur are the oldest. (I don't take part in this Bombadil debate.)
Did you get my point?