morgoth & sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 10-08-2002, 10:53 AM

In vol 10 of the history of ME series, there's an essay by JRRT, in which he says that, taken to his logical extreme, Morgoth would destroy everything, reduce it to its primal elements, whereas Sauron would want to exercise absolute control over everything. So Tolkien seems to believe that either position, taken to its extreme, is just as evil. Is there any significance in the way its the Elves, who are the main opponents of Morgoth in the First age, & Men who are the main opponents of Sauron in the Third?
Morgoth is 'Dionysian' - are the Elves Appolonian? Sauron is Appolonian - are Men Dionysian? Would Men naturally be more easily corrupted by Morgoth, & Elves more easily corrupted by Sauron?
Am I confusing myself? Yes.

Dior · 10-08-2002, 03:59 PM

I believe that all you have said makes sense, about the elves & men and Morgoth & Sauron, but I don't think there was much of a descrepency with the amount of men siding w/Morgoth vs. the amount siding w/ Sauron. Maybe, though the wars that sauron fought to gain control over most men differed from how Morgoth got control of them, but that isn't really stated is it? If so, could someone enlighten me?

davem · 10-09-2002, 04:45 AM

Ok, Dior, but is it really a matter of numbers of men? Isn't there something in the character of Elves & men which will draw them towards one or the other extreme?. Men would be more easily seduced by Morgoth, as something in him corresponds to something innate in their character, whereas Elves wopuld be more easily seduced by Sauron - hence the whole rings thing. Yes, there's the Numenorians, but in a way, weren't the Numenorians quite 'Elvish', at least in their desires/attitudes?

bombur · 10-09-2002, 05:20 AM

I would not go as far as saying that Morgoth is Dionysian and Sauron Apollonian. For example Morgoth is in many ocasions well and clearly in control of himself. Dionysian charachter generally is driven by whims and desires of the moment. Apollonian/dionysian division signifies much more then just goal of destruction/control. It is madness/reason, art/science, passion/restraint and much much more.

Men are certainly not dionysian in nature in my opinion. They do exhibit some kind of passion, reserve of strenght, that the immortals do not have. But think of eleves flight from Valinor and the Feanors oath. I doubt that men would to such degree allow their destiny be shaped by heat of the moment. And eleves always desired to build and craft. Men desired to rule and be kings. Which of theese is dionysian and which is apollonian?

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with your perception of this division.

Janne Harju

davem · 10-09-2002, 07:09 AM

ok, Bombur, but I was speaking generally. Men are Generally 'dionysian' in character, Elves are Generally 'Appolonian'. Yes, there are differences within individuals. Elves seek a state of timeless perfection. Men are driven by the fact of their mortality to be dissatisfied in the realm of Arda - which see Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.
I wasn't really wanting to push the technical definition of Appolonian/Dionysian, just using them as shorthand.

Nils · 10-09-2002, 05:15 PM

I woulnd't say that Men were more easily attracked to Morgoth. Look what Sauron did to Numenor. When it came to the rings of power, the Elves took off their rings, while Men embraced theirs.

***I am in no way saying that Elves were given their rings, this is just a comparison***

Sauron put more effort into seducing the Elves than he did Men, but it was the Men who followed him. Men are just more easily led to follow Evil.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Nils ]

10-08-2002, 10:53 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,256	morgoth & sauron In vol 10 of the history of ME series, there's an essay by JRRT, in which he says that, taken to his logical extreme, Morgoth would destroy everything, reduce it to its primal elements, whereas Sauron would want to exercise absolute control over everything. So Tolkien seems to believe that either position, taken to its extreme, is just as evil. Is there any significance in the way its the Elves, who are the main opponents of Morgoth in the First age, & Men who are the main opponents of Sauron in the Third? Morgoth is 'Dionysian' - are the Elves Appolonian? Sauron is Appolonian - are Men Dionysian? Would Men naturally be more easily corrupted by Morgoth, & Elves more easily corrupted by Sauron? Am I confusing myself? Yes. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

10-08-2002, 03:59 PM	#2
Dior Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 242	I believe that all you have said makes sense, about the elves & men and Morgoth & Sauron, but I don't think there was much of a descrepency with the amount of men siding w/Morgoth vs. the amount siding w/ Sauron. Maybe, though the wars that sauron fought to gain control over most men differed from how Morgoth got control of them, but that isn't really stated is it? If so, could someone enlighten me? __________________ Goodbye everybody, I've got to go... Gotta leave you all behind and face the truth....

10-09-2002, 04:45 AM	#3
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,256	Ok, Dior, but is it really a matter of numbers of men? Isn't there something in the character of Elves & men which will draw them towards one or the other extreme?. Men would be more easily seduced by Morgoth, as something in him corresponds to something innate in their character, whereas Elves wopuld be more easily seduced by Sauron - hence the whole rings thing. Yes, there's the Numenorians, but in a way, weren't the Numenorians quite 'Elvish', at least in their desires/attitudes? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

10-09-2002, 07:09 AM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,256	ok, Bombur, but I was speaking generally. Men are Generally 'dionysian' in character, Elves are Generally 'Appolonian'. Yes, there are differences within individuals. Elves seek a state of timeless perfection. Men are driven by the fact of their mortality to be dissatisfied in the realm of Arda - which see Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. I wasn't really wanting to push the technical definition of Appolonian/Dionysian, just using them as shorthand. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

10-09-2002, 05:15 PM	#6
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	I woulnd't say that Men were more easily attracked to Morgoth. Look what Sauron did to Numenor. When it came to the rings of power, the Elves took off their rings, while Men embraced theirs. *I am in no way saying that Elves were given their rings, this is just a comparison* Sauron put more effort into seducing the Elves than he did Men, but it was the Men who followed him. Men are just more easily led to follow Evil. [ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Nils ] __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

10-09-2002, 05:20 AM	#4
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	I would not go as far as saying that Morgoth is Dionysian and Sauron Apollonian. For example Morgoth is in many ocasions well and clearly in control of himself. Dionysian charachter generally is driven by whims and desires of the moment. Apollonian/dionysian division signifies much more then just goal of destruction/control. It is madness/reason, art/science, passion/restraint and much much more. Men are certainly not dionysian in nature in my opinion. They do exhibit some kind of passion, reserve of strenght, that the immortals do not have. But think of eleves flight from Valinor and the Feanors oath. I doubt that men would to such degree allow their destiny be shaped by heat of the moment. And eleves always desired to build and craft. Men desired to rule and be kings. Which of theese is dionysian and which is apollonian? I am sorry, but I cannot agree with your perception of this division. Janne Harju