Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

I have noticed some of you guys speak of people peeking at the dead-thread prematurely is more or less understandable and kind of obvious people do it (tp even admitted doing that, which actually fits well with my thought of him being the cobbler).

I don't follow that point at all. The fact that I clicked on the thread right when Rikae opened it and being made aware of my mistake thanks to her opening lines... How does that indicate anything at all?

Originally Posted by Nog

So let me strongly disagree and protest.

Keep away from it. Really.

Looking there is unsportsmanlike and bad gaming. And what's the joy of winning if you gain it by deceit?

Now here you're just agreeing with me. I said earlier that I gave my word not to read the thread and I intend to honor my word, and that I'm very paranoid about being put at a disadvantage because of it (i.e. I'll be completely ticked if I suspect it's being done).

Anyway... Back to your earlier post- You still haven't responded to what I said here. It seems to me you started off your suspicions of me by reaching big time and now you're building further assumptions based upon the opinion that you formed through the initial sloppy grasping.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

False! As I said before, given this set up there is no purpose whatsoever to the Lovers hinting at one another. They already know each other, and it's extremely easy to prove their truthfulness (they COME BACK TO LIFE).

A Lover has no need to bluff or double-bluff, or hint or anything at all. A Lover in this game is simply an Ordo who rises from the grave, and is thus a PROVEN innocent. To say that Shasta was attempting any sort of Lover-based bluff I think is to misjudge his grasp of his role. (i.e. If I were a Wolf I wouldn't bother in the least trying to look for a Lover other than just looking for general jumpiness perhaps that might speak of a Gifted.)

Yeah, but... Shasta actually did go out of his way to joke about being Lúthien. So whether it made sense for him to try a double-bluff or not, it seems that's what he did. (I'm assuming Agan's telling the truth.)

So– was that what put the wolves on his trail? After all, nobody seemed to take it seriously at the time. And would that mean our wolves are showing great subtlety– or none whatever? ("Duuuh... well, he said he's Lúthien...")

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Speaking of which... I have noticed some of you guys speak of people peeking at the dead-thread prematurely is more or less understandable and kind of obvious people do it (tp even admitted doing that, which actually fits well with my thought of him being the cobbler). And looking at the number of views there (182) thus far strongly suggests it's not done only by the mods and now two players, added with random 'Downers just curious what the thread is about.

So let me strongly disagree and protest.

Keep away from it. Really.

Looking there is unsportsmanlike and bad gaming. And what's the joy of winning if you gain it by deceit?

Quite right– and all I can say is, whoever's been looking at the thread, it isn't me.

EDIT:X'd with many.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I have noticed some of you guys speak of people peeking at the dead-thread prematurely is more or less understandable and kind of obvious people do it (tp even admitted doing that, which actually fits well with my thought of him being the cobbler). And looking at the number of views there (182) thus far strongly suggests it's not done only by the mods and now two players, added with random 'Downers just curious what the thread is about.

I did the same as the phantom before the game started ("there's no harm reading the narration, there isn't any information yet"). I also stopped reading after the very first sentence, and haven't peeked in since. I don't think that tells anything about phantom whatsoever.

I think you're underestimating the honesty of the werewolf players. I just can't imagine anyone cheating.

[the phantom]

Ha! Thanks Agan! Basically you've confirmed in my mind what I had been thinking about the kill- that insinuating that Shasta was suspected by the Wolves to be any specific Gifted is somewhat insulting to Shasta and the intelligence with which I am certain he would play such a role. It made no sense to me that the Wolves would look for Lover hints from a Shasta-Lover, nor for obvious Seer behavior from a Seer-Shasta, for that would be to say that the Wolves thought him to be rather dense.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, the way Aganzir behaved fits in nicely. She jumped on me for understandable, even if wrong reasons. And like lovers do, they don't accept their loved one made a mistake so it had to be someone else doing it. It looks quite obvious to me - on a level things can be obvious in a ww-game... Well, at least it makes sense.

I can only refer you to the post I made recently - my suspicion of you had nothing to do with Shasta's opinion. He was suspicious of the phantom, I wasn't. Really what are you thinking, that we're one mind split between two bodies? No. We just knew of each other's innocence, that's all.

And please consider what you say. You're seriously being rude.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yeah, but... Shasta actually did go out of his way to joke about being Lúthien.

Which depended on your being Beren (granted, the wolves obviously couldn't know it unless you're one yourself), and anybody who's ever played with you two shouldn't have thought there was something out of ordinary. I doubt they took it seriously, therefore I think his death has more to do with Nog (either getting rid of a possible seer or trying to frame him).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And what exactly were you afraid of?

That Shasta was the ranger... or even more likely a lover. Just go back there and look at the posting (and not you MSN as we others don't have that priviledge), and anyway try to look at it from an outsider's POV as to how serious the situation was for him to get lynched at that point when we both made our last posts on D1. His reaction was so overdone it made no sense, but the wolves probably picked it, just because of it.

(psht, as if playing lovers with me was so unusual for him ).

Well, that was the point that made me see it... Sorry, meta-reasoning is always bad, but here I think it applies. Even if I'm not going to say what I believe stands or falls with it. Let's say it's one slight confirmation of what I think.

He was seriously annoyed with you and thought you were being deliberately mean.

As I felt I was one of the scarce people trying to make points and really do something on D1 I could say I found his sudden suspicion and decision a mean one. And I must say he started it. He just made a bad decision there.

I am willing to vote for Nog today. He is false and needs to die. Remember Nog, death is not the end - and if you're innocent, you can surely help us even after your death.

Well technically yes, if I feel like doing it after all this crap you guys load on me with no real points to back it... but Mandos does actually call me. It would be soo interesting to get to take a look and play there.

So I'm kind of lingering between the basic gut-feeling of not willing to get lynched as an ordo and looking forwards to that dead-thread...

And I totally agree about Nog's reaction. It not only looks like damage control but also as if he was trying to... twist everything.

Would you be more specific here so that I could make it right? This really baffles me.

Nog if you want reasons, I can naturally go through my posts and make a summary of what I've said of you so far. My main (rational) argument against you is that you should know better, ergo you're playing dumb, and I can't see an innocent you doing it.

Think outside the box of your love, darling. This game is much more complex we can see... at least I have have gotten new insights into this game day and night and I still don't claim to understand how this game works.

But it doesn't work well if a lover plays overtly stupidly on D1. That much I think we all can assess.

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean. But you have to face it he acted stupidly. And that it was not me who killed him but the wolves.

Just think again.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I talk about the Dead Thread because I'm interested in it. Aren't you?

Well, I assume we all are, but there is little sense in speculating before we get there, right? Personally, I disapprove of talking about it, because I think we can have no information about it, at least until we are there or until somebody returns.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Mänwe is a cobbler? Surely. Perfectly possible. If he thought both me and Shasta were innocents that "fueling the flames" -comment that probably got him lynched would look like a cobblery one.

I said innocent, not ordo, or ordinary innocent. Meaning he's not a wolf (whom the others tried to save). I'm a bit puzzled of the way you try to make me look suspicious... Are you trying to make me suspect you? Well, no deal done.

I would paraphrase your own words: Are you trying to make US suspect YOU? This sounds like what they call "retcon" (for people who might not know what it means, you can look it up in some online dictionary for sure). I mean, since when has Cobbler been "innocent"? Don't give us that: Rubbish and more rubbish. No, I don't trust Nog, not after this on top of everything. This-is-weird.

I have similar feelings about Lommy, maybe the whole clan is somehow bad in this game. Well, I don't know about Greenie - she is rather smoothly posting, but perhaps that's just it? No, anyway, I just feel bad about those.

Likewise, my opinion about Lottie has not changed for the better since yesterDay, although I'm still wondering if she is just the Cobbler. Possibly if I were to name three Cobblers, it could be Lottie, Nog and either Phantom or Lommy. Although I think it's more likely that Phantom'd be a Wolf, if anything. I'm not sure if I have ever encountered him in Cobbler-mode, but I would somehow expect him to behave differently, thinking of that.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Legate - not having played with Manwe before, I was unaware that he was a particularly frequent scapegoat; while I regret having played a major role in lynching an unoriginal target, I must say he clearly picked the right game...perhaps he'd booked his bed in Mandos early.

Well, agreed. And I know that many people here wouldn't know about this history of Mänwe... but that does not have any impact on the game itself, of course: Wolves would still lynch him because he's an easy target, etc., etc... so the fact that you didn't know about this has obviously no influence on you voting him or not, whatever your real motives were.

Originally Posted by Ang

I agree that Glirdan's comparison involving seers was unwise, but it seems to me not necessarily malicious. I must say that I'm known Glirdan as a Cobbler so often that I have illogical and unmathematical resistance to imagining him in that role yet again. I lean towards incautious innocent.

Anybody can post stuff like that, though I would somehow think of the generally more cautious players (among whom I count Glirdan) not being so careless.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Where art thou gone? The day is bare,
the sunlight dark, and cold the air!
Shastanis, where went thy feet?
O wayward star! O maiden sweet!
O flower of Elfland all too fair
for mortal heart! The woods are bare!

Congrats, wolves. You killed Lúthien.

Oh, my. Well, means that we at least get info back from Mandos. Note: it does come to effect only the Day after, so the folks in Mandos (three after we lynch, unless we make some mega-lynch) will still get to vote one of them before Shasta returns, right?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well of course we have a phabbler.

I mean I was thinking about it yesterDay and then a bit during the Night - as this time no looking back to the thread by Night will be futile as you don't die as such.

Basically he was talking sense, making good points, being reasonable... well what else do you expect from tp? And I actually thought him a good and helpful ordinary innocent there and then.

I cannot once again agree on this, this once again seems false, "retcon". I would say that Phantom is never "reasonable" when he is innocent - if such a word would be used for his innocence, then carelessly at most, but not consciously, because let's face it, he's NOT. He is "inventive" in his own way, but not "reasonable". I think a normal, reasonable (sic) person would never use that word in the context you do, i.e. as a sign of innocence of tp, which is about to be reevaluated. (I don't know if you who are reading can understand what I mean by this, but simply it is, I think Nog is using very weird language and on very weird occassions, which he seems making up.) This sounds to me like once again Cobbler Nog pulling on straws.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

However, I've just seen Aganzir's revelation. Weird if true. Why would Shasta have been so unsubtle? No, wait, I can answer my own question. The excitement of being a Gifted gives one a great desire to boast, and makes one liable to deploy the overly confident double-bluff (cf WW II, my disastrous outing as Guardian; sorry if I'm boring you, whippersnappers).

Why are you even questioning that? I mean, it would be far weirder for somebody to say "I am a Lover and my darling is dead", since we'd learn the other Day anyway. Unless the person was killed or something.

All in all - not much time, once again, alas. But I am going to make a list of whom I suspect and whom I might choose from toDay, and decide whom to vote soon.

EDIT: x-ed with two last posts at the previous page and with everybody after...

[Nerwen]

A change of subject–

Originally Posted by Lommy

Awww, thanks. Trying to imply you're a cobbler, though?

Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"

Which is another thing– there's been a surprising amount of what looks like signalling. And yet, in this game, why bother?

Edit:clarification.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir to Nerwen

Which depended on your being Beren (granted, the wolves obviously couldn't know it unless you're one yourself), and anybody who's ever played with you two shouldn't have thought there was something out of ordinary. I doubt they took it seriously, therefore I think his death has more to do with Nog (either getting rid of a possible seer or trying to frame him).

Agan please... come out from this fatalistic despair that blinds you as your loved one has died. I share your pessimism as to the game right now, but let's fight.

Don't you see the 1+1 = 2 here?

Shasta joked being the lover with Nerwen - and then when suspected freaked out in a way only catching attention. What did the wolves think? That he was indeed the lover, his joking banter in the beginning just nailing it to them? (actually I didn't remember that but now as Nerwen reminded me about it, I can see it very well) And of course they killed him and not Nerwen as it was not clear which one or was ot true wiht Nerw, but the two unrelated things both pointed into Shasta being a lover.

May I remind you that on my first post on D1 I said the wolves would love to do away with the lovers and the ranger first and that those people should stay out of the fray?

Well sadly they have been succesful.

And I'm not playing dumb. I think I have not been this sharp in a long time. Which doesn't mean I claim to know things in particular but that I have a hang of how this goes and that my central beliefs have been proved right (like your innocence form D1).

But we're only in the beginning of this game - as this time the game continues on two levels anyway.


EDIT x'd with Leg & Nerwen

[Nerwen]

Anyway, I have to go and will try to be back by the DL. I need to sort my thoughts on people out more before I vote.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nogrod - most likely Cobbler. His posts smell of being false, but up to the point that no Wolf would really do that. Or, if you don't mind me saying it, I think no Wolf would be so silly.
Aganzir - trusting her Lover-claim (and pity her, though well, you'll get to be with your lover in Mandos also)
Glirdan - well he has been active, on the other hand, few questions have been raised around him with which I concur, but nothing particularly striking yet
A Little Green - like I said, smooth posting, not suspicious, which of course might just be it, but... whatever.
elronds_daughter - hm, one of the people I need to look better at, there was something troubling me about her, but not sure what. Though it wasn't anything striking, probably. Maybe just the impression.
Nerwen - has managed to be rather under my radar, to be honest. She was one of the Mänwe bandwagon, and not in the most convinient of places, I think I should look at her better as soon as I have a bit more time.
Loslote - really weird, I keep to thinking that she might be a Cobbler, most likely (once again, for a Wolf a bit too messy style)
Wilwa - also managed to be under my radar, though this is her first Day, so basically...
Lommy - I still think she is really behaving strangely, more possibly a Cobbler
Nessa - erm, I could maybe ask, what was it with the vote for me yesterDay? I mean, yes, random, half-joky retaliation, sure, why not, but it's the generall merry-go-nothing tone which seemed peculiar to me. Also a candidate for some sinister figure, in fact.
Blind Guardian - more info needed?
satansaloser2005 - also not enough data.
the phantom - I am unsure about him, on Day 1 he seemed fine, now his posting has been more strange, although lately again there are posts which gave me better feeling about him. But I don't know.
Boromir88 - I don't know what to make of him, now it has occured to me, though, that he does not show the most typical sign of a Borowolf, that is, being very jumpy while being suspected. Though on the other hand, he hasn't been under any strong suspicion much this far.
Mithalwen - no real suspicion now
Anguirel - this fellow is really interesting, I mean, extraordinary. Most curious, is basically the best I can say in relation to him. His reply concerning the Mänwe-bandwagon did not really prove anything, but his tone was, well, let me put it this way - at least he bothered to reply. So...
Fea - she has posted very little, from a few things in her posts, I had a strange feeling and was wondering, but in any case, I am not suspecting her enough to vote her now

Well, so this is it for the time being... I'll see about my voting yet. It is possible that I might stay up a bit later and try to finish the studybook I am reading, and therefore vote a bit later as well. But maybe not, depends how tired I feel. But I will definitely check back a bit later still.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"

Which is another thing– there's been a surprising amount of what looks like signalling. And yet, in this game, why bother?

Edit:clarification.

Hm, interesting point. As for "why bother", it is true that the Cobblers can perfectly well wreak havoc on their own, but possibly, if they can do it, it is still better to have a "union" with the Wolves, sort of a "know your ally" thing. But it is true that it can be equally risky for them - that such hints can be spotted. In general I'd imagine that as a Wolf trying to find a Cobbler or vice versa, one would try subtler hints. But yes, well, maybe this was one sort of a bit too exposed hint (unless, of course, Nerwen is here trying to frame Boro or Lommy - and if it came to me, I would think more likely about the former). But anyway, going for now, will be back later to vote at least.

[Nogrod]

This actually makes me think very suspicious of Legate. After a lonf absence he decides to make this his point? Really? Someone with his brains and experience would have done differently being an ordinary innocent:

Originally Posted by Leg

I mean, since when has Cobbler been "innocent"? Don't give us that: Rubbish and more rubbish. No, I don't trust Nog, not after this on top of everything. This-is-weird.

Somehow I'm feeling this is not only about semantics... but let me make my understanding clear - and then you can judge the merit of this.

In a village, there are innocents and wolves. And then there are gifteds who are innocents but with a special role. At some time during the history of the WW in the 'Downs the cobblers were introduced, but they are counted as innocents as they are not wolves (the winning-tallies count the cobblers as innocents when calculating the winning conditions).

So speaking about an "ordo" means an ordinary innocent aka. having no role.

Speaking of an "innocent" means a non-wolf.

Gifteds and wolves are self-explicating.


But the real problem with Legate's post is not this. It is the fact he uses that false point as grounds of suspicion.

There may be different interpretations to the terms to be sure as there are different generations of werewolf-players around, but taking this kind of thing and stating it's "rubbish" and a reason to suspect someone feels pretty awkward, well plain evil.

I mean what Mänwe was is not a big thing toDay as we have no way of checking it toDay.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think you're underestimating the honesty of the werewolf players. I just can't imagine anyone cheating.

I hope I am. I truly hope that. But after my last account I can now see there are 201 views on the thread. A lot more than two players would make (add the mods & possible outsiders). And the general count over 200 just makes one think it's not possible without a host of people checking it regularly (the mods and one, then two dead ones do not form a host).

So just stay away from it! Please.

Let's play this honourably.


As a second thought, should Rikae ask the forum-mods if there is a way to find out who has been opening the dead-thread? They clearly have a counter that picks the number of visits, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem to see who were the people the number of visits come from?

I mean I'm ready to see a list from the visits there and to suggest disqualifying everyone who has been there. After the first posts maybe... as I understand I myself felt a temptation to look at the first narrations involved when there were no players in there yet. But I didn't blink. And no one should have as that is clearly prohibited.

So let's say, anyone who has visited the Dead-thread after Mänwe died should be banned from werewolf for a year or something? I think the site-mods could find that out.

I may be paranoid, but looking at the number of views there just feels awkwardly big thinking it's forbidden from everyone who'd be interested....

[Glirdan]

Okay, so my rehearsal was apparently cancelled, thus making me here. However, I do believe that I will be going out for supper very soon thus making me not here for a period of time again.

I'm just going to throw this out there now that I may vote completely at random or may not vote at all as I will not have nearly enough time to get myself all caught up on everything.

Okay, going to go back and skim quickly and hopefully post once more.

[Aganzir]

++NOGROD

I have seen enough. Nog if you're innocent I apologise, but at the moment I can't see that as an option.

I am not going to argue with you about if Shasta overreacted or not. Or if he acted stupidly or not.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As I felt I was one of the scarce people trying to make points and really do something on D1 I could say I found his sudden suspicion and decision a mean one. And I must say he started it. He just made a bad decision there.

But my suspicion wasn't bad and/or mean?

if I feel like doing it after all this crap you guys load on me with no real points to back it...

I'd say you called it upon yourself. You'll probably disagree. Anyhow I find it more likely an innocent tries to help and says "I told you so!" afterwards. Nog is just being a martyr.

Would you be more specific here so that I could make it right? This really baffles me.

No. Or maybe yes but not right now. I'm getting tired of your aggression.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"

That's a good point - not sure if it means anything, but I wouldn't be surprised. Lommy has been awfully eager to fish for cobblers, anyway.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And of course they killed him and not Nerwen as it was not clear which one or was ot true wiht Nerw, but the two unrelated things both pointed into Shasta being a lover.

You seem to know very much about why Shasta died. Now the question is, did Wolfrod spot a lover and is now irritated about nobody believing he did it? You know, the real reason for someone getting killed is often so obvious to the wolves they can't understand how others don't see it...

[Nogrod]

And I really mean it.

If the forum-mods tell us x, y & z have been reading the dead thread after Mänwe died, then they should be modfired and banned from werewolf for a long time. And if that ouldn't happen, I would be the first to vote for them in every game for a while on D1 just because they're not decent people if they ever re-appeared in the games disregarding the scorn we all should make on them for betraying us.

Of course if everyone but me have been there then it's better I quit playing this game for a while.

Really, I crave to see what's in there and I'd love to experience that game, but really, people, patience...

Let's play by the rules! (and that's not against anyone in particular, but on the sheer numbers of views in there)


EDIT: x'd with Glirdy & Agan

[the phantom]

My case against Lommy from yesterday (here) still stands today, and I said earlier today that in my reread I was feeling bad manipulation from Boro, and so now Nerwen's idea of linking them together as Cobbler & Wolf looks quite attractive to me.

So yeah- I'm still totally up for lynching Lommy.

As far as Nog.... *sigh* He felt innocent to me all day yesterday, and even today he doesn't exactly scream "guilt" so much as he seems... something.... odd. I think I and others have demonstrated some flaws in his attacks, and honestly I'm starting to get VERY irritated with the fact that he still hasn't responded to my initial questioning of his opinion on me, despite my prodding.

Meh, I'll decide later. I have an assignment due at 8:00 that I need to finish off. I'll look in periodically.

(edit: sp)

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I did the same as the phantom before the game started ("there's no harm reading the narration, there isn't any information yet"). I also stopped reading after the very first sentence, and haven't peeked in since. I don't think that tells anything about phantom whatsoever.

I think you're underestimating the honesty of the werewolf players. I just can't imagine anyone cheating.

I did look at the narration before anyone died but I can't remember anything and haven't and won't look until properly entitled. But I don't see the point of hassling the mods because if I were to cheat I wouldn't sign in to do it and I prolly wouldn't use my own computer.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Let's play by the rules! (and that's not against anyone in particular, but on the sheer numbers of views in there)

I don't want to use the phrase Ang hates but I think your assumption doesn't bear up to some simple maths.

This thread has almost 8.3 views per post the dead thread has a smidgen over 7 views per post. So quite proportional..

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So let's say, anyone who has visited the Dead-thread after Mänwe died should be banned from werewolf for a year or something? I think the site-mods could find that out.

I may be paranoid, but looking at the number of views there just feels awkwardly big thinking it's forbidden from everyone who'd be interested....

Here's my assumption: when I'm playing WW I just leave the thread open and frequently refresh it as I'm doing things. That would jack up the view count since each time you hit refresh it counts as a page view (I think).

So how about instead of assuming people are cheating, we assume that the people who are allowed to look are looking very frequently, and that non-players are also following the discussion.

I'd rather assume the best of everyone than assume the worst. And if we find out post-game that somebody was cheating all along, we can certainly self-regulate without the need to get mods involved (like mod-firing). I know there have been multiple discussions about shutting down WW because of how non-Tolkien it is. I'd hate to involve them in this if we don't have to.

Originally Posted by Nog

I would be the first to vote for them in every game for a while on D1 just because they're not decent people if they ever re-appeared in the games disregarding the scorn we all should make on them for betraying us.

That's exactly what I meant by self-regulation. Firstly, I don't believe any of us would knowingly cheat. I say this because the sheer overwhelming amount of disappointment that would be heaped upon them by everybody else would be awful. I mean, EVERYBODY would be really, really saddened by that kind of behavior. Everybody here loves playing, and we all respect each other's opinions, and hope to stay in each other's high esteem. I can't imagine anybody would want to damage that by doing something as stupid (and traceable) as cheating.

Originally Posted by phantom

As far as Nog.... *sigh* He felt innocent to me all day yesterday, and even today he doesn't exactly scream "guilt" so much as he seems... something.... odd. I think I and others have demonstrated some flaws in his attacks, and honestly I'm started to get VERY irritated with the fact that he still hasn't responded to my initial questioning of his opinion on me, despite my prodding.

I hate agreeing with you. It's so fun to bicker. But I agree with you. I will almost definitely be voting for Nog today because I just don't trust him.

Originally Posted by Mith

This thread has almost 8.3 views per post the dead thread has a smidgen over 7 views per post. So quite proportional..

Yes! Thank you. Like I said, I'm really not concerned about cheaters because we can always alienate them mercilessly later. Ask anybody that's ever made me mad: I am AWESOME at making them feel guilty without even being obviously mean.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Agan

No. Or maybe yes but not right now. I'm getting tired of your aggression.

Now I'm really baffled - and I mean in general terms and not just this game. I mean I have heard a lot of people (oftentimes wolves but not everytime) claiming I am aggressive, game after game. But I don't think myself being that. Now this is a really good example of it.

So how is that aggressive? Please tell me.

And I mean really. I just don't understand it.

Okay I'm a non-native speaker, but I don't think I'm that wrong in thinking the above quote was not aggressive (about the discussion between me and Shasta, please look back to my previous posts where I stated my view on speculating about other peoples' guilt). Or does someone think it is aggressive? I really woud like to learn about that.

Or any other quote - or the vague impression-grabbing remark without a specific quote *cough Greenie cough* - people have made. I hate these memes people cling into when they have either nothing to say or their own evil agendas suggest them (or like with the case of Agan here are blinded by their loss to see the bigger picture).

With my experience I'd say it's basically the wolves who do that and make the less informed ordos follow them.


Well anyway, I need to make my list so as I can get to sleep as it is to late already now...


EDIT: x'd from my last post.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Boro

Nerwen has asked Glirdan a fair question about what he meant by the Manwe-bandwagon. I'm interested in Glirdan's response, but also, earlier I was not vehemently going after Nog. The above is what it looks like when I go into attack mode. Do you see the difference now Glirdy?

And apparently someone is not reading the thread entirely. I did answer her, post #207. And please note that even though I used the word attack, I did say that it was an overstatement, and I quote (myself ironically lol) with the part in question bolded:

Boro - All day, his attack (okay, maybe that's a little too strong of a word...his, thoughts and ideas will suffice for this) on [/b]Nog[/b] just made no sense to me. Granted, Nog has me a little baffled, but that's not unusual. But Boro's has been pretty adamant about it....I don't know, something just feels off.

Originally Posted by phantom

That's easy. I wanted to kill Lommy, but at that point it was impossible, so I had to vote for someone else. I wanted to rule out a multi-lynch, so I just boosted the lead of Manwe who was already guaranteed to die. Why put Legate or Nog under threat with my vote when I suspected neither of them? The death of one person you haven't particularly suspected is much better than the double-lynching of two people you don't suspect.

I see your reasoning....but why not vote for Lommy anyways? Manwe's fate was already stamped, sealed and set for deployment to Mandos. Why not stick with your gut and vote Lommy whether or not she standed a chance of being lynched? Your vote would have only mattered if it would have been placed on someone for a double lynch, but by voting last and by voting Manwe, you made a very safe vote. I don't know but it seems fishy. I don't think it Wolfish because that would be too obvious, but I would not put it past a Cobbler phanty.

Originally Posted by Nog

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on. In this kind of a game the wolves would save their mate on D1 with no problems.

I'm not sure what I think of this, but somehting about it is not sitting right with me. Just because there appeared to be no last minute rescue-operation doesn't necessarily clear him of having been a Wolf. And looking back, there was the possibility of a wolf rescue mission, of none other then yourself. There were two votes, made by Ang and Nerwen, for Manwe that were made within ten minutes of each other. I doubt both of them are but I feel quite certain that at least one of them could be a Wolf with you. Very tempted to vote for you.

Originally Posted by Lommy

A badly grounded vote is not the same as a throwaway. And obviosuly it was not throwaway, in retrospect, it determined the whole voting outcome of the Day. Now we just hope Mänwë was a wolf but I wouldn't bet too much on that.

Fair enough.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I see your reasoning....but why not vote for Lommy anyways? Manwe's fate was already stamped, sealed and set for deployment to Mandos. Why not stick with your gut and vote Lommy whether or not she standed a chance of being lynched?

In other words, you are recommending that I throw away my vote in that position, and leave it open to one of our non-voters (Sally, Wilwa, Blind) to swoop in and purposefully or accidentally cause a double or triple lynch?

That's insane, Glirdan.

A Lommy vote would accomplish nothing! Completely and totally pointless!

A Manwe vote on the other hand protected against a multi-lynch.

Are you seriously implying that it's better to throw away one's vote and allow for a disaster than to do something useful with one's vote to ward off disaster?

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by phantyface

In other words, you are recommending that I throw away my vote in that position, and leave it open to one of our non-voters (Sally, Wilwa, Blind) to swoop in and purposefully or accidentally cause a double or triple lynch?

That's insane, Glirdan.

A Lommy vote would accomplish nothing! Completely and totally pointless!

A Manwe vote on the other hand protected against a multi-lynch.

Are you seriously implying that it's better to throw away one's vote and allow for a disaster than to do something useful with one's vote to ward off disaster?

When you put it that way and remind me of the non-voters of yesterDay, I'm inclined to agree with you. I had been completely disregarding the non-voters because at the time of your vote, there stood a very little chance that they would pop on and vote.

Yet I do see your point now and completely agree.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Are you seriously implying that it's better to throw away one's vote and allow for a disaster than to do something useful with one's vote to ward off disaster?

Yeah, that's exactly why Glirdy's #2 on my list of People to Vote For. His statements baffle me.

Edit: crossed with Glirdy... who seems to have spatula'ed himself from one side of the pan to the other. Which, in my brain, sends him from pan to fire... Ie: he didn't really help his cause.

[Rikae]

I believe a number of the views on any given thread are from bots/Google/etc., so I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. I'd rather not bother a mod about it if possible; anyone accessing illicit information will only spoil the game for themselves and, if they actually make use of that information, be suspected and looked on with contempt by everyone when the game is done. I don't think the people playing this game are so unsportsmanlike; it seems disrespectful to suggest it. We all know these games only work when played fairly.

I'd also like to remind everyone to keep their tone within reasonably respectful limits, and be mindful of the fact that words can seem harsher on the screen than the writer might intend.

That's all for now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I hope I am. I truly hope that. But after my last account I can now see there are 201 views on the thread. A lot more than two players would make (add the mods & possible outsiders). And the general count over 200 just makes one think it's not possible without a host of people checking it regularly (the mods and one, then two dead ones do not form a host).

Understandable concern, but as it's been said, this thread has now something like 2500 views at 300 posts, the other one has 200 views at 30 posts. And I would really think the players here are mature enough not to peek at the dead thread! So I would leave that - I am also sure if anybody was doing that, they would confess. I mean, we are not little kids. I also saw the thread when it was put up, like tp said, but exactly there was this very well made announcement "if you are not dead, don't read further" with a huge empty space behind it, and that was enough of a sign for me not to scroll down.

So, yes, I assume everybody would do that (luotetaan itseemme!) and I think we can consider the matter closed.

And now as for really in-game-wise:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

This actually makes me think very suspicious of Legate. After a lonf absence he decides to make this his point? Really? Someone with his brains and experience would have done differently being an ordinary innocent:Somehow I'm feeling this is not only about semantics... but let me make my understanding clear - and then you can judge the merit of this.

In a village, there are innocents and wolves. And then there are gifteds who are innocents but with a special role. At some time during the history of the WW in the 'Downs the cobblers were introduced, but they are counted as innocents as they are not wolves (the winning-tallies count the cobblers as innocents when calculating the winning conditions).

So speaking about an "ordo" means an ordinary innocent aka. having no role.

Speaking of an "innocent" means a non-wolf.

Gifteds and wolves are self-explicating.

However, that counts only if we are talking about the final count in the list (i.e. how many innocents vs. Wolves are there), but not when you are talking about somebody's role. Cobbler is by no means innocent. Honestly, I think you are just playing dumb, Nog, and playing with words. Like I said, I find it very likely that you are a Cobbler yourself. "Innocent", indeed.

Also the fact that you jump on me saying this. Had you been innocent (note: see the use of the word? I certainly mean to say "had you been ordo or gifted", not "ordo, gifted or cobbler", and that's how everybody uses this word, so please) and had you understood my post the way you claim you do (below), I think you wouldn't have minded it as much as to suddenly start suspecting me. You will correct me, yes. But not start kicking around like... erm... ghan-buri-ghan on stims. Or something like that. And you have been doing that a lot in this game. So, please.

Originally Posted by Nog

But the real problem with Legate's post is not this. It is the fact he uses that false point as grounds of suspicion.

There may be different interpretations to the terms to be sure as there are different generations of werewolf-players around, but taking this kind of thing and stating it's "rubbish" and a reason to suspect someone feels pretty awkward, well plain evil.

My grounds for suspicion are all over your posts, not just this. It's been there since the beginning, like I have already said before. You immediately turn against everyone who says a single word about you and start suspecting them (just like you did now with me, see above), and sometimes even for less than that. This is a Cobblery behavior. An innocent does not jump against everybody who says something he doesn't agree with. And a Wolf knows better than to make such a fuss around himself, as it might just as well get him lynched. Ergo, what remains?

That all said, I do not want to lynch you, because it won't help anything. First, it will prevent us from the possibility of lynching a Wolf instead. Second, you will continue wreaking havoc in Mandos. Not willing to do it right now. I think for now, it is better to have you here.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now I'm really baffled - and I mean in general terms and not just this game. I mean I have heard a lot of people (oftentimes wolves but not everytime) claiming I am aggressive, game after game. But I don't think myself being that. Now this is a really good example of it.

So how is that aggressive? Please tell me.

A comment just to this: honestly put, I don't think you generally are. But as for in this game, yes, you are (again, see above in this post - but I think it is explainable by your role, unless I am totally off about you, which I don't believe right now, so the question you put here in relation to the present is more like rhetorical).

All right. I am going to choose whom to vote probably from among the rest of people I suspect. There are a few others whom I think of as possible Cobblers, I would prefer to avoid them at least for the time being as well... let's take a look...

EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy, phantom, Fea, and the Moddess Herself

[the phantom]

(Three hours till... here's where I am.)

A big reason I'm so unwilling to commit to a Nog vote is the fact that right from the start of the day I sort of put my foot down and said, "I'll be darned if I'm going to be led down such an obvious path!" and that seems to be where we are. If this was the Wolves' plan and we followed it, I'll be entirely angry after the game.

BUT on the other hand it seems to me that the hand guiding us down the path has for the most part been Nog himself, as well as the trusted Agan, which eases my suspicions of a Wolf plot a bit. I really wonder if it's all on Nog now to determine his lynching. In other words, I'm hoping he'll do a false reveal that smells fishy thus making my choice an easy one. But if he doesn't, well... *grumble*... I suppose technically I'd still rather lynch Lommy, if anyone else is the least bit interested.

I'm not sure if I feel better today about Green or not. I'll probably have to determine that in a reread. I'm a bit annoyed by the low-posters. Boro bugs me still, but in a Cobblerish way, so he's not the top choice for me. And I also wonder about Mith as a Cobbler. I might view Daughter's opening post as suspicious if it had been made by someone I knew better.

Ang and Fea are both fine. Not as confidently, but I have also been liking Nerwen.

[Boromir88]

Nog's now moved to threat alert Godzilla. I see nothing beneficial that can come from the insinuations living players are cheating. That's rather unsporty when there's no proof for it. We've all played long enough together, I would think that alone would make everyone trustworthy enough stick to the rules. It's no different than the fact I trust living players aren't discussing the game, while the game is going on with eachother (unless allowed by the rules).

++Nog

I'll probably be back before the DL, but my mind's not going to change about this one today.

Originally Posted by Agan

I like the fact that Greenie voted for Nog but not that she did it after Boro threatened to suspect her more if she had voted Nessa.

There I was forceful and sounding threatening, but I did it to get an explanation from Greenie why she would have voted for Nessa today, over Nog or Mith, who to me so far have looked more dangerous today.

In the end, Greenie is the principled player who will make her own choices. And therefor I felt it was ok to twist her arm a bit to get answers as to why Nessa today.

[Glirdan]

Ummm, have Nessa or BeiGei made an appearance at all yet??

[the phantom]

Nessa is there with Wilwa and Sally- they've appeared briefly.

Blind hasn't been around at all.

[Mithalwen]

I am not a wolf, I am not a cobbler. I have had a black dog day and was considering withdrawing but I am trying to get a grip because of how finely balanced the game is. It isn't due to anything said here more that I think I am having a slightly delayed reaction to the last 6 months of RL and too late have realised that this has been a bit ambitious. All a bit much...

[satansaloser2005]

Can I have a vote count please?


I don't like some of the things I've seen regarding Boro, so he may get my vote, but I also still don't think Lottie is my good little pop. Those are my current choices.


I'm sorry I can't be around; I'll post once more, maybe twice, but that'll be it. After toDay I'll have the ability to stalk the thread again. I'll vote in my next post, and explain more toMorrow.

[satansaloser2005]

Can I have a vote count please?


I don't like some of the things I've seen regarding Boro, so he may get my vote, but I also still don't think Lottie is my good little pop. Those are my current choices.


I'm sorry I can't be around; I'll post once more, maybe twice, but that'll be it. After toDay I'll have the ability to stalk the thread again. I'll vote in my next post, and explain more toMorrow.


ETA: Blind is probably going to get modfired. Let's not pay any attention to her. Catch active wolves.

[the phantom]

Ah, very sorry, Mith. I promise I won't gun for you today, if that makes any difference.

Sally!

[the phantom]

The Voting:

Lommy ++ Wilwa
Green ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Boro ++ Nog (3)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I believe a number of the views on any given thread are from bots/Google/etc., so I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. I'd rather not bother a mod about it if possible; anyone accessing illicit information will only spoil the game for themselves and, if they actually make use of that information, be suspected and looked on with contempt by everyone when the game is done. I don't think the people playing this game are so unsportsmanlike; it seems disrespectful to suggest it. We all know these games only work when played fairly.

I do agree and admit I hadn't thought of that bot-view thing. That might explain some of the numbers.

But at the same time I must say that at one time of the Day a few posts here seemed to have it like self-evident that people were peeking in there. And to that I protest.


Bah, I have been writing a post if that needs to be posted, but I was wawering whether that was a good idea or not, but now Boro's vote made it clear. I will send it in a short while...

And really Boro, voting me on the grounds that I voiced a general suspicion someone might peek at the dead-thread after a host of people had speculated on it and some had even given the air they had done it anyway or that it would be natural to do it?

I agree with Rikae that the trust is the key word, and what should guide us (and I'm ready for any mod-surveillance) but there's nothing to boost the trust than a threat of being caught...

I just plain disliked the speculation on "everyone has been there anyway"...



A post coming soon, to hopefully retrail the wagon.

[Glirdan]

Okay, I can't stand to wait any longer and will vote

++Nog

If anyone wants to see why, read post #303 for my reasoning. I really have to go.

[the phantom]

Hoo boy... That set-up sounds so suspicious. We'll see...

*waits for Nog*