The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-16-2004, 02:28 PM   #1
gorthaur_cruel
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 92
gorthaur_cruel has just left Hobbiton.
Nazguls vs. Eagles in the Black Gate

I was rewatching RotK, and found something rather interesting, and to me, somewhat disappointing.

I don't know if anybody else noticed, but in the Battle of the Morannon, the Eagles fight the Nazguls. If you look carefully, as one of the Eagles battle a Fell Beast, a Nazgul falls off and drops to the ground. If you know what to look for, it's clear, and it's unmistakable. I'd post a screenshot, but I don't know how. Just look carefully and you'll see it. Also, when Sauron summons the Nazguls back, only 3 of them are seen in the movie. I'm guessing that's the reason.

I don't know what anybody else thinks, but somehow, I find the thought that the Nazguls are defeated so easily disappointing. Of course, they may not have died after falling, but I wonder what would happen to it after.
gorthaur_cruel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2004, 02:53 PM   #2
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Fear not Fighting

First of all PJ had the fell beasts done wrong. The fell Beast weren't huge dragon sized animals they were much smaller then the dragons in size.

2nd of all the Nazgul's main weapon is fear. They are formidable opponents at fighting and not many people could take on all 9 Nazgul at once (Glorfindel, Gandalf were the only ones that tried who were able to). But their main weapon was their fear, the shriek that they yelled was loud and destroyed the hearts of men. Lastly, the black breath was their most devastating attack, thats what Faramir, Merry, and Eowyn suffered from.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2004, 03:04 PM   #3
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,992
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots

I agree with you as regards fear not fighting Boromir88, however I'm not sure I agree with your other point. There are certainly other artists' impressions of the winged beasts that are similarly huge in size.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2004, 06:53 PM   #4
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
First of all PJ had the fell beasts done wrong. The fell Beast weren't huge dragon sized animals they were much smaller then the dragons in size.
I believe you're correct in that point, even John Howe himself (who was in charge of drawing up the fell beast, among many other things, for Peter) admitted that he thought he'd gone quite wide of Tolkien's fell beasts. But still, I had no problem with any of the changes to the fell beasts, other than the beast-to-arrow ratio is rather high when Faramir drives one of at Osgiliath (the only problem with the beasts I had was at Osgiliath, which was one of my least favorite scenes...makes sense ). But I'm also inclined to agree with Eomer in that I think there are plenty of concept drawings out there that portray them as rather large. What a pity Tolkien himself wasn't a great artist who could've copied down what all his characters/creatures/cities looked like.

Quote:
They are formidable opponents at fighting and not many people could take on all 9 Nazgul at once (Glorfindel, Gandalf were the only ones that tried who were able to).
If you're talking about at the fords, each had quite a bit of help. They both benefited from the other's presence (Gandalf himself admitted it wasn't likely that we would've been able to withstand them had all 9 attacked him on Weathertop), not to mention the flood, which played a huge part.

I didn't like the Nazgul vs. Eagles scene if only because (& correct me if I'm wrong here) in every scene were an Eagle was attacking a fell beast, the Eagle was dominating. Personally, I don't think 9 Eagles could even hope to take down 9 fell beasts, perhaps I'm wrong, but that's always been my opinion. And I also agree that I thought it was pretty stupid to show a Ringwraith falling off his steed, though it's not a big issue with me.
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2004, 10:24 PM   #5
Son of Númenor
A Shade of Westernesse
 
Son of Númenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 527
Son of Númenor has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Personally, I don't think 9 Eagles could even hope to take down 9 fell beasts, perhaps I'm wrong, but that's always been my opinion.
I think you underestimate Gwaihir's host.
Quote:
There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendants of Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young. Behind them in long siwft lines came all their vassals from the mountains speeding on a gathering wind. Straight down upon the Nazgûl they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale.

But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows...
" (The Return of the King, "The Field of Cormallen", 927)(italics mine).
I personally enjoyed the scene of the coming of the Eagles and their fight with the Nazgûl. It was one of the more exciting scenes, and the CGI Eagles were incredible.

Also, where did you get the idea that there were nine Eagles pitted against the nine Ringwraiths?
__________________
"This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."
Son of Númenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2004, 08:46 AM   #6
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,992
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots

Yes, I agree that it's not too important a detail. I quite liked the scene, it was an impressive visual. I didn't notice that the Wraith fell off though. Next time I see the movie that's going to bug me.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2004, 09:40 AM   #7
piosenniel
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
 
piosenniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,816
piosenniel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Here's an interesting little thread concerning the wingspan of Eagles:

Big Wings

__________________
Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
piosenniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2004, 02:46 PM   #8
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
Also, where did you get the idea that there were nine Eagles pitted against the nine Ringwraiths?
No where in particular. In the movies, it appeared to be one Eagle per fell beast, but I assumed there were more. It was more of a comparitive term than anything, if (IMO) 9 eagles couldn't take out 9 ringwraiths, then why were the eagles whipping up with only (from what I could remember seeing) 1-1 odds?

Quote:
There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendants of Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young. Behind them in long siwft lines came all their vassals from the mountains speeding on a gathering wind. Straight down upon the Nazgûl they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale.

But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows..." (The Return of the King, "The Field of Cormallen", 927)(italics mine).
Oh I don't pretend to say that the eagles were wimps or wimpy fighters. Obviously Gwhair & co. would be an awesome addition to an army.
The main point here is: Behind them in long siwft lines came all their vassals from the mountains speeding on a gathering wind.

To me, this explains that the Nazgul turned & fled because they were severly outnumbered. I don't doubt that even just 15-20 eagles could do in all the fell beasts (not the wraiths of course), but, by what I saw in the movies, it was implied that there was roughly 1 to 1.

Hopefully I'll be checking again just to be sure tommorrow night (my copy is lent out to my sister & her friends so that they can watch all three of the lotr movies), & if I see more eagles I could be retracting the statements I've made. The EE might show (clearly) that there were more eagles as well. I just had a slight problem with how easily the fell beasts were dispatched of in the theatrical...from what I remember .
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2004, 09:35 PM   #9
gorthaur_cruel
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 92
gorthaur_cruel has just left Hobbiton.
Hm...somehow nobody commented on the nazguls falling off the fell beasts, which was my main point.

Quote:
To me, this explains that the Nazgul turned & fled because they were severly outnumbered. I don't doubt that even just 15-20 eagles could do in all the fell beasts (not the wraiths of course), but, by what I saw in the movies, it was implied that there was roughly 1 to 1.
They turned and fled because Sauron summoned them to try to take the Ring from Frodo, not because they couldn't beat the eagles. It is quite obvious if u quote the entire sentence...

Quote:
But the Nazgul turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower.
(italics mine)

If there's still any doubt, there's this line as well:
Quote:
At his summons, wheeling with a rendering cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurled southwards to Mount Doom
gorthaur_cruel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2004, 09:49 PM   #10
Bombadil
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Bombadil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Old Forest
Posts: 488
Bombadil has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Bombadil
Boots

I didn't think the Eagles scene was good for those who hadn't read the books. I'm sure it raised many questions amongst movie-goers as to why the Eagles weren't helping prior to the storming of the black gate. And then you'd have to get into a huge discussion on the Eagles and how they stand in Middle-Earth. Headache!


By the way, what's up with the end of the movie when they are carrying frodo and sam away? The Eagle picks up frodo as he's lying on his back. Therefore Frodo is facing up. This is confirmed in the close up when his head is hung backwards. But somehow an eagle flies beneath frodo in that shot- from the looks of it belly up. This would mean the eagle is flying upside down!! Hm...
__________________
"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"
Bombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2004, 03:46 AM   #11
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Also, weren't the Eagles created by Manwe as some form of 'spirit'. i.e. akin to Gandalf's Istari?

Just hunting in the Silmarillion and I've found this about Manwe:
Quote:
Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda
And also regarding Manwe again:

Quote:
Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.' Then Yavanna was glad, and she stood up, reaching her arms towards the heavens, and she said: 'High shall climb the trees of Kementári, that the Eagles of the King may house therein!'
Also, regarding the size of the Eagles (well ok, at least Thorondor)

Quote:
For Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves. And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë. Now, even as Fingon bent his bow, there flew down from the high airs Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been, whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms; and staying Fingon's hand he took him up, and bore him to the face of the rock where Maedhros hung.
And finally,

Quote:
Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manwë are come upon Númenor!'

So I think these few examples show that the Fell Beasts (and the Nazgul, without their Lieutenant) were NO match for the Eagles of Manwe………
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2004, 07:14 AM   #12
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420! Yes

Essex,

You have brought up the point right there, why the eagles couldn't help from the beginning. Many people think that Radagast had control over the eagles. Radagast had no control over the eagles it was Manwe. Radagast only sent Gwaihir to get news about Gandalf (and Gwaihir agreed). Gwaihir by his own decision decided to save Gandalf, since Gandalf healed Gwaihir from a poison arrow, Gwaihir owed Gandalf one. This has been a topic I've seen discussed before, being the fact that Eagles have other things to do, and the fact that Manwe controlled the Eagles.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2004, 03:31 PM   #13
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
I didn't think the Eagles scene was good for those who hadn't read the books. I'm sure it raised many questions amongst movie-goers as to why the Eagles weren't helping prior to the storming of the black gate.
Why, you're not talking about the "Why didn't Frodo just ride the eagles to Mount Doom?" argument, are you ?

Quote:
Many people think that Radagast had control over the eagles. Radagast had no control over the eagles it was Manwe. Radagast only sent Gwaihir to get news about Gandalf (and Gwaihir agreed). Gwaihir by his own decision decided to save Gandalf, since Gandalf healed Gwaihir from a poison arrow, Gwaihir owed Gandalf one. This has been a topic I've seen discussed before, being the fact that Eagles have other things to do, and the fact that Manwe controlled the Eagles.
I just assumed that Gwaihir did what he pleased, being the Lord of the Eagles. And actually, Gwaihir didn't owe Gandalf anything, he had already repaid the 'poison arrow wound debt' in The Hobbit, when he rescued Gandalf & co. from the burning trees, saving them from their hastening crispy end.

Quote:
They turned and fled because Sauron summoned them to try to take the Ring from Frodo, not because they couldn't beat the eagles. It is quite obvious if u quote the entire sentence...
Ah, thank you, gorthaur_cruel, that's an even better explanation then mine . I guess there's a more 'booktual' answer for you, Son of Numenor, since it's straight from the books.
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2004, 05:37 PM   #14
Son of Númenor
A Shade of Westernesse
 
Son of Númenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 527
Son of Númenor has just left Hobbiton.
My mistake for being too lazy to read an entire sentence. I still doubt, though, that a host of Eagles would have been defeated by the Ringwraiths, and also doubt that Tolkien, being a linguist, would have used the word "fled" if he had not meant it to connote some level of fear of the Eagles.
__________________
"This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."
Son of Númenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2004, 10:15 AM   #15
Olorin_TLA
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor.
Posts: 420
Olorin_TLA has just left Hobbiton.
Well there was the unimaginable fear of Sauron running through them at that moment - the fear that the Ring would be destoryed, and that He (and therefore they) would die.
__________________
"For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!"

ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"
Olorin_TLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:14 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.