Cirdan - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

08-18-2002, 10:52 PM

Cirdan is an elf right? Then how come in the Return of the King, he is described as appearing old and with a beard?

steve · 08-18-2002, 11:11 PM

Yes Cirdan is an Elf. He apears old and with a beard for the most part, is because Tolkien wrote him in that way, simply put, but you will probably get alot of explinetion from the others here who, I think, just like to hear themselves type

And Welcome to the Downs

Legolas · 08-18-2002, 11:14 PM

Elves' lives are divided into three periods. Some elves grow beards during the third division; there are rare exceptions where an elf will have a beard in the second. Cirdan is presumed to be quite old, in this third period at the time of the War of the Ring.

Guildo · 08-19-2002, 06:41 AM

Cirdan is Possibly the oldest Elf known, even older than Elrond, and im prety sure he is older than Galadriel, in the Silmarilion it says in the Begining of days Elves and Men looked much alike, and in some cases Men where smaller and more fragile. Cirdan is someone i dont know much about and deffinitely want to read more about about he is very interesting to me i know he is has lived through all three ages and now in the fourth age, this is probably why he had a beard as Legolas said.

It is also that in the Silmarillion that the elves Soul's Wither away their Body throught long periods of time.

**lindil** · 08-19-2002, 07:51 AM

Cirdan was I believe the oldest Elf in M-E at least among the leaders, he may well have had friends and realitves that were among the first to reach the shores of M-E.

There is a very late writing of JRRT's on Cirdan in Peoples of M-E [ HoME 12]p.385 in 'Late Writings'

and if you do a search for Cirdan + beards in the search function we have you will prob find a grand discussion or 2 and make mr. underhill very happy [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

***Mister Underhill*** · 08-19-2002, 08:51 AM

I'm sending this over to Novices and Newcomers, where I think it will be a better fit. Add additional info over there.

lathspell · 08-19-2002, 11:02 AM

Cirdan was the oldest living elf in M-e, and at great age elves may grow beards. I believe Cirdan was already there from the beginning, when the elves were found by Oromë near lake Cuivienen. I guess he might be 8000 years old, maybe more... maybe somewhat less.
He's older than both Galadriel and Elrond, who's tales are known alot more.

I've heard about these three stages before, though I do not know the source of that information.

greetings,
lathspell

Eol · 08-29-2002, 09:41 PM

I have never heard of the three stages, as it probably orginates from the HoME series. I think why Cirdan had a beard another idea that Tolkien was playing with and could not make up his mind. With or with beards, that is the question.

secretfire · 03-26-2003, 05:03 AM

Maybe elves can opt to grow facial hair or not. Wasn't there a Hephaestus-like elf mentioned in The Silmarilion? I forgot his name but I distinctly remember that he was a rugged and rustic elf who was good with metalwork. And didn't he also keep his wife or his daughter (?) captive? He certainly wasn't as old as Cirdan but the way I perceive him, he looks like he could give Wolverine a run for his money. üüü

[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: secretfire ]

Tinuviel of Denton · 04-18-2003, 09:04 PM

Are you talking about that Dark Elf (Moriquendi, not evil) whose son was named Maeglin or something like that? He married the king of Gondolin's sister, I think. He doesn't have a very prominent part in the Silmarillion, but he isn't described so I don't see why he couldn't have a beard.
On a related topic, do elves scar? This may sound strange, but a friend of mine and I have this running debate on the subject. Please say they do so I can win.

Tinuviel of Denton · 04-18-2003, 09:09 PM

Eol. That's the elf I was thinking of. I seem to remember him making swords or something. Maybe he did have a beard.

Manwe Sulimo · 04-19-2003, 05:10 AM

The movies have too much influence....

Of course elves can have facial hair. Dwarves do, hobbits do, humans do...hey, maybe even some orcs do!

As for Eöl, his initial description says

Quote:

...a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri, noble though grim of face; and his eyes could see deep into shadows and dark places.

Nothing to prove or disprove him having a beard.

Afrodal Fenyar · 04-19-2003, 04:10 PM

Well, elves do age, but very slowly, and also grow beard. In Arda, they are not the same as in other fantasy books, but very much like men. Círdan simply is so damn old(probably the oldest in M-E) that he has grown that beard. 9000-13000 years I think.

08-18-2002, 10:52 PM	#1
tolkienpillowcat Guest Posts: n/a	Cirdan Cirdan is an elf right? Then how come in the Return of the King, he is described as appearing old and with a beard?

08-18-2002, 11:11 PM	#2
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Yes Cirdan is an Elf. He apears old and with a beard for the most part, is because Tolkien wrote him in that way, simply put, but you will probably get alot of explinetion from the others here who, I think, just like to hear themselves type And Welcome to the Downs __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

08-18-2002, 11:14 PM	#3
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Elves' lives are divided into three periods. Some elves grow beards during the third division; there are rare exceptions where an elf will have a beard in the second. Cirdan is presumed to be quite old, in this third period at the time of the War of the Ring. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-19-2002, 06:41 AM	#4
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Cirdan is Possibly the oldest Elf known, even older than Elrond, and im prety sure he is older than Galadriel, in the Silmarilion it says in the Begining of days Elves and Men looked much alike, and in some cases Men where smaller and more fragile. Cirdan is someone i dont know much about and deffinitely want to read more about about he is very interesting to me i know he is has lived through all three ages and now in the fourth age, this is probably why he had a beard as Legolas said. It is also that in the Silmarillion that the elves Soul's Wither away their Body throught long periods of time. __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

08-19-2002, 07:51 AM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	Cirdan was I believe the oldest Elf in M-E at least among the leaders, he may well have had friends and realitves that were among the first to reach the shores of M-E. There is a very late writing of JRRT's on Cirdan in Peoples of M-E [ HoME 12]p.385 in 'Late Writings' and if you do a search for Cirdan + beards in the search function we have you will prob find a grand discussion or 2 and make mr. underhill very happy [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

08-19-2002, 08:51 AM	#6
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,752	I'm sending this over to Novices and Newcomers, where I think it will be a better fit. Add additional info over there.

08-19-2002, 11:02 AM	#7
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Cirdan was the oldest living elf in M-e, and at great age elves may grow beards. I believe Cirdan was already there from the beginning, when the elves were found by Oromë near lake Cuivienen. I guess he might be 8000 years old, maybe more... maybe somewhat less. He's older than both Galadriel and Elrond, who's tales are known alot more. I've heard about these three stages before, though I do not know the source of that information. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

08-29-2002, 09:41 PM	#8
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	I have never heard of the three stages, as it probably orginates from the HoME series. I think why Cirdan had a beard another idea that Tolkien was playing with and could not make up his mind. With or with beards, that is the question. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

03-26-2003, 05:03 AM	#9
secretfire Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 21	Maybe elves can opt to grow facial hair or not. Wasn't there a Hephaestus-like elf mentioned in The Silmarilion? I forgot his name but I distinctly remember that he was a rugged and rustic elf who was good with metalwork. And didn't he also keep his wife or his daughter (?) captive? He certainly wasn't as old as Cirdan but the way I perceive him, he looks like he could give Wolverine a run for his money. üüü [ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: secretfire ] __________________ "Leave now and never come back! (3x)" Dr. Gollum's prescribed mantra against multiple personality disorder.

04-18-2003, 09:04 PM	#10
Tinuviel of Denton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amid the hills and dales of the Shire... or not. Posts: 609	Are you talking about that Dark Elf (Moriquendi, not evil) whose son was named Maeglin or something like that? He married the king of Gondolin's sister, I think. He doesn't have a very prominent part in the Silmarillion, but he isn't described so I don't see why he couldn't have a beard. On a related topic, do elves scar? This may sound strange, but a friend of mine and I have this running debate on the subject. Please say they do so I can win.

04-18-2003, 09:09 PM	#11
Tinuviel of Denton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amid the hills and dales of the Shire... or not. Posts: 609	Eol. That's the elf I was thinking of. I seem to remember him making swords or something. Maybe he did have a beard.

04-19-2003, 04:10 PM	#13
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	Well, elves do age, but very slowly, and also grow beard. In Arda, they are not the same as in other fantasy books, but very much like men. Círdan simply is so damn old(probably the oldest in M-E) that he has grown that beard. 9000-13000 years I think. __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer