The Bridge of Khazad-dum

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 267</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

HoME 12, Peoples of Middle Earth, p. 302.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;There [in Eriador and Rhovanion] dealings between Men and the Longbeards must soon have begun. For the Longbeards, though the proudest of the seven kindreds, were also the wisest and most farseeing. Men held them in awe and were eager to learn from them; and the Longbeards were willing to use Men for their own purposes. Thus there grew up in those regions the economy, later characteristic of the dealings of Dwarves and Men (including Hobbits): Men became the chief providers of food, as herdsmen, shepards, and landtillers, which the Dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers, miners, and the makers of things of craft, from useful tools to weapons and arms and many other things of great cost and skill. <hr></blockquote>

The next page addresses the alliance of Dwarves and Men of the &quot;House of Hador&quot; who lived in the Anduin vale during the Second Age. The alliance was, first, for defense and, second, for trade.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Mithadan, but is it stated that dwarves were specially settling nearby humans to have such an economy handy?

Well, one speculation deserves another - there is no textual evidence allright that dwarves had any kind of agriculture, but here we have mere lack, whilst arguing more than one entrance in the East, we choose to contradict clear textual statement. Sure, they must have had something to eat when settled in desolate places, with no neighbours at all?

Is there a quote mentioning dwarves using wagons for transporting anything? OK, there were carts bringing some stuff to Bilbo's party, still I can't pull out any notion about wagons used in caves.

PS Saul and Mith, you were right about Gundabad. I was confused by Gimli's song, when pointing at Durin's awakening in Moria.

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 270</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

The Dwarves didn't settle in desolate places. They settled where there were neighbors. Moria was not remote, it had neighbors to both the East and the West until Sauron tore through Eregion and Eriador. And yes, the quote from JRRT does imply that Dwarves or at least Durin's folk intentionally settled near Mannish settlements.

The quote I provided was not the one I was looking for, but the rest of the pages cited establish clearly that Dwarves prefer to dedicate their time to mining, building, manufacturing, etc. rather than farming and tending livestock. No, the quote doesn't establish that Dwarves never produced their own food, only that they prefer not to. After Eregion fell and Eriador laid waste, Durin's folk would have traded to the East rather than becoming farmers. You can't grow crops in underground caverns of rock and there is no evidence that Dwarves took land to the East (or West) to use for farming.

So we have: the Dwarvish preference to trade for food; no evidence that they did or did not farm, etc.; an absence of trading partners to the West; and the existence of trading partners to the East. This suggests that at least some trade to the East took place after the fall of Eregion and trade would require adequate ingress/egress in the East.

Also, the trading pattern of Durin's folk is also evidenced in the Lonely Mountain - Dale/Laketown relationship.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Just to add a little gas to the fire...

Khazad-dum was a fortress, so it seems likely that the dwarves would have made provisions for stockpiling food to sustain them in the event of a siege or a falling out with their trading partners.

There's no evidence that they used wagons to move trade goods around inside Moria after they had been dropped off by trading partners, so why is it so unbelievable that they'd carry such goods the few extra yards from the gate over the bridge? Ditto with exports. It seems unlikely that they'd have huge caravans arriving daily with goods. The bridge seems an ample provision for traffic even for a once-a-week caravan.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/25/00 12:45:28 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Wagons are not the issue here, a bottleneck bridge as an only entrance is. And Khazad-dum was a fortress-city... an entire Kingdom.... with the needs of a Kingdom. Stockpiles would be used for emergency purposes. But we're talking regular day-to-day requirements.

The words textual evidence come up often in these type of arguements to refute sometimes the most obvious of things. Just because we never saw an old wagon (or cart) wheel laying around in Moria doesn't mean they didn't have or use them. We never saw a bed in there but I doubt if they all slept on the floor. Beds (and carts/wagons) are practical things unneccesary for JRRT to write about.

The bridge was noted as a defense mechanism.





The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Ron, you seem to be assuming massive freeway-type traffic in and out of the east gate that seems counter to common sense, too. Where's all this in-and-out coming from? The bridge, plus maybe an additional removable span or two, would surely meet all travel requirements. I'm not denying that the dwarves had carts or wheelbarrows or such to move things around more easily inside Moria. But did they have wagons and maintain horses or ponies to pull them around inside the tunnels and hallways? This doesn't seem likely given the dwarvish distaste for mounted travel. So then logically any carts they used would be small in size and manageable by one or a few dwarves. And we can only guess at the food requirements for dwarves.

</p>

[dogtrot]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

well maybe the wagons and horses belonged to the men that they were trading with. men could come with wagons of supplies, spend days or weeks even unloading and transporting the goods over the bridge or by some other dreamed up contraption which the good professor did not bother to write about. then the dwarves would give these men their crafts and the men used those same wagons to haul that dwarvish ironmongery away.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

And you seem to be assuming an entire population of an entire Kingdom of Dwarves would use one thin, arched bridge as the only way in and out of their Kingdom. This also defies common sense. Textual evidence or not. I didn't build the 'great paved way', but I did ask that if there was no Dwarves using it, why build it? So the enemies could rush up and see the great skinny bridge defense mechanism? <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> I don't think so. If the entire eastern side of Moria was nothing but a defense buffer, the road would have best been nothing more than a narrow path for the occasional longbeard that passed along it. Now that'd make sense.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 144</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

And I think you're viewing the dwarvish traffic needs through the eyes of a 21st century American. How big is the &quot;great paved way&quot;? An eight-lane superhighway like the 405? A two-lane cobble-stone street? Okay, the dwarves built a road leading up to the east gate. Sure, any military force departing Khazad-dum would need some room to spread out and form up. And that pavement would make it easier for the wagons of their eastern trading partners to approach and depart. But does this mean that the road was choked with traffic? Or that the bridge span was insufficient for normal traffic? There's a whole kingdom of dwarves in there, but how many are going in and out the eastern side at any given time? A few patrols. The occasional envoy. Not much of a traffic problem there. Even a large clan of dwarves heading to the Iron Mountains to pay a visit to their kin could pass over the bridge in a matter of minutes. And of course, trade. How big is a large caravan? Twenty wagons? Forty? Those dwarves are industrious little fellows. I'm sure they could off-load even forty wagon-loads of goods in a few hours.


</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1544</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

You know what?! You are gross!!! At least your number of posts is !! <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Anyways, as in our previous arguments with other subjects *cough* *trolls*, you think too much. Mathmatics must be your major, because you are always figuring. I'm just a reader. But here's some abstract math formulas:

'narrow span' + 'great paved way' = bottleneck.
Dwarven Kingdom (Moria) &gt; skinny bridge &lt; lower Dwarven Kingdom = bottleneck (again)

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 10/25/00 3:33:28 pm

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 145</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Hey, only... hmm... 1400 posts to go to catch up to you. Wait! Er... make that 1399 counting this one! <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> (Sorry for the heavy math. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> )

I'm no math major -- far from it. In fact, I took a BFA degree and didn't have a single math course in college. My specialty is imagination. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

I'm just trying to fill in the gaps in a plausible way using my imagination, just as in another thread which will go unnamed *coughtrolls*. First you ding me for not filling in logical, common sense gaps in the &quot;textual evidence&quot;, then you ding me for thinking too much.

Of course the bridge is a bottle-neck. The bottle-neck is the whole point. But only when you're trying to quickly move large numbers across it. The only reason I can think of that you would need to move large numbers quickly through the east gate would be in support of an invasion. Hence the bridge's effective defensive posture.

Consider that the Orcs appear to have occupied Moria for years (presumably without the benefit of trading partners) with no access through the West Gate and only the bridge in the East.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1545</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I don't know much about the occupation of Moria by Orcs, but I don't think it was ever a complete occupation... more like a garrisoning. I could be very wrong about this though.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

First:
Mithadan; your quote isn't even relevant to Moria. It's concerning Gundabad and the surrounding area in the First Age when the alliance with the northmen began, not Khazad-dum, and certainly not about the Third Age.

Second:
The great road is from the First and early part of the Second Ages.

Third:
There seems to be some confusion about the ability to grow crops inside Moria.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien The Fellowship of the Ring
'There used to be great windows on the mountain-side, and shafts leading out to the light in the upper reaches of the mines.'

'And of old it was not darksome, but full of light and splendor.'<hr></blockquote>
So unless you believe that it's impossible to grow crops indoors with a plentiful light source...

The eastern end was the habitable section.
The west gate wasn't constructed until the Second Age.
The dwarves simply preferred not to consider agriculture (in the First Age and early Second) not that they couldn't or didn't.
Moria's gates were shut. Both ends.

Anyone ever remember 'We cannot get out'?

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1546</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Must have been splenid crops of veggies growing in those upper regions where the sunlight hit because crops don't grow by torchlight. To suggest that the Dwarves of Moria subsisted only on the output of shaft-light-grown crops is getting silly.

Are you saying the Bridge was a Third-age innovation and not contemporary with the road leading away eastward? If so, what was their great defense before the bridge? And if not, then the bridge and the Road existed and were used concurrently and we are back to my initial arguement: if a road was neccesary for traffic leading eastward, then the bridge would only serve as bottleneck.



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Seems the 'Great windows on the mountain-side' was missed.
Yes, there were indeed many shafts for light also.

A bottleneck for shorter dwarves or possible invaders?
The whole point of defense is to restrict access, not allow free reign to advance.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1547</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Nothing missed.

Shafts or great windows.... doesn't matter.... the side of the mountain would have to be gone to have enough sunshine to support fields for even a fraction of such a big city. And if these windows were indeed so 'great' then they would be a security threat... who knows what creatures might by crawling into them.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The whole point of defense is to restrict access, not allow free reign to advance. <hr></blockquote>

'restrict access' are they key words here that have been my point all along.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 272</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Disagree that the quotes I profferred apply only to First Age. I didn't want to copy 2+ pages of text. Arguably, the initial quote MAY refer to the First Age though not necessarily limited to Gundabad (which was where Durin woke, but not necessarily where the Longbeard kingdom settled). But it states that the economic system described was &quot;characteristic&quot; of later Dwarf-Man relationships. The later discussion about interactions between Dwarves and the Men of the &quot;House of Hador&quot; living in Anduin Vale is expressly about the Second Age. By the Third Age, Gondor and Arnor existed and some trade could have resumed from the West Gate. But there are 1700 years between the fall of Eregion and the laying waste of Eriador by Sauron and the end of the Second Age (See Tale of Years). During this lengthy period, the Dwarves of Moria necessarily had to look East for trade.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 146</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I am prepared to concede that the Dwarves traded to the east, but I still haven't heard a hint of why the bridge is insufficient for their trading needs. It's faulty logic to assume that because they built a &quot;great paved way&quot; it was thronged with constant in and out traffic. Why build it, you've asked? I've already mentioned several reasons for having the road that don't suggest huge amounts of travel on it. Add to those reasons the obvious fact that for purely aesthetic reasons, the dwarves wouldn't build some wimpy little rock-strewn footpath leading up to their underground kingdom/city. You come up that (no doubt) wonderfully crafted and impressive road and you know you are coming into the realm of the Dwarves, you dig?

And anyway, your own contention re: the road seems to argue against a more convenient and spacious auxiliary entrance. If they have a big loading dock of some kind with less restricted access, why doesn't the paved trade road lead to that? Even if you postulate an alternate gate, you still have the main road leading to the East Gate, so what gives? Your argument isn't answered by having an additional gate. You still have the great paved way leading to a bottleneck. In fact, I suggest that the presence of a great paved way leading to the East Gate implies that it was their primary (and therefore, likely only) real entrance on the East Side.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/26/00 10:14:26 am

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Disagree all you wish.
A simple reading of the material states the time periods involved.
You're sub-creating and extrapolating on evidence that doesn't apply to the situation.
The quote concerned the first age, and parts of the second BEFORE the Numenoreans arrived.
It even goes on to state that this was before Moria was established.

Moria was closed and the alliance disintegrated totally.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien Of Dwarves and Men
{Concerning the closure of Moria and the effects of the War}
'The Men of the Old alliance were diminished and scattered, and those that lingered on in their old regions were impoverished, and lived mostly in caves or in the borders of the forest.'<hr></blockquote>

The beginnings of the Woodmen of Mirkwood.

A further quote concerning the alliance of Dwarves and Men:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien Of Dwarves and Men
{Concerning the names of Dwarves}
'And continued to be given (and often repeated) for something like four thousand years or more since the Alliance was destroyed by the power of Sauron!.'<hr></blockquote>

This establishes the time frame for the destruction of the alliance AND explains the creation of the 'unique' names of the Dwarves having thier origins in a 'long dead' mannish language.

The Dwarves lessened the alliance before the destruction of the Men of the Vales to establish an alliance with the Elves of Eregion.

The 'characteristic' you are describing concerns The Iron Hills, the Ered Luin, Ered Mithrin, and later Erebor areas, not Moria. It was CLOSED. That's how they survived the wars of the time, though the population began to decline.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien The Return of the King Appendix A
{Concerning the closure of Moria and it's result on population}
'Thus it's wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.'

The speculation on additional entrances, trading, agriculture and whatnot is turning into flights of fancy due to the disregard to textual statements, and in many places contradicts text entirely from the attempt.

Concerning Master Underhill's statement of the Road:
Absolutley correct. I attempted to make that clear earlier for others with the statement concerning the West Gate being built in the Second Age. Before this time the East gate was the only entrance, but thank you for doing so in a more concise<hr></blockquote>

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 275</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I think we need an agreement to disagree here. We could go back and forth forever. Examples; no west gate until Eregion arises means no westward trade heightening the need for eastward trade; the section of HoME 12 that we've been trading quotes from does not say Gundabad only and footnote 30 clearly implies Dwarvish presence in the Moria area; footnote 29 says dwarves didn't like to ride horses, but &quot;never&quot; raised animals, so where did their meat come from; the dwarf-man alliance died in mid-Second Age but then Sauron was defeated in Eriador with the assistance of Numenor and retreated leaving eastward trade more or less open but still no one to the West; there is no textual evidence that the dwarves used the lightshafts to grow crops, etc. To these, there are a number of contrary responses (no horses = no wagons, the men of the North were diminished and impovershed, etc.). We disagree on this point. Nice discussion, good points all around.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> posted points by Mithadan
'...does not say Gundabad only and footnote 30 clearly implies Dwarvish presence in the Moria area...'

'...means no westward trade heightening the need for eastward trade...'
'...retreated leaving eastward trade more or less open but still no one to the West...'

'...there is no textual evidence that the dwarves used the lightshafts to grow crops...'<hr></blockquote>

Concerning Gundabad and environs:
The section references Gundabad and the early establishment of Moria in the First Age. I have never disputed that trade existed before Moria was closed, only its existance AFTER its closure.
Footnote 30 (as you point out) is applied to the Second Age, and again relates to BEFORE its closure.

Concerning eastward trade:
The Men of Anduin are ravaged by Easterlings and Orcs.
{QUOTE]J.R.R. Tolkien Of Dwarves and Men
'The Men of the Alliance were involved in war not only with Orks but with alien Men of evil sort. For Sauron had acquired dominion over many savage tribes in the East (of old corrupted by Morgoth), and he now urged them to seek land and booty in the West. When the storm passed , the Men of the old Alliance were diminished and scattered, and those that lingered...' (etc. as quoted previously)[/quote]

Concerning Light shafts and (stated) great windows:
Absolutely, but it is taken in context of known information and was simply a rebuttal to the idea presented that it was 'impossible' to grow food in Moria. The stretch wasn't nearly as great as imagined (and within text concerning Morias' lighting) when compared to other ideas presented (and actually my only speculation in the area presented) without even examining possibilities on unscalable High Elevation gardens (or animal compounds) or other such speculative ideas which wander beyond text.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> By Mithadan
Nice discussion, good points all around.<hr></blockquote>
I may seem to be harsher than I am in this discussion, and have no problem with discussions of speculation of this nature, but I do when it alters text (and disregards it in some cases) in order to make a point.
'Kirk'ism isn't a quality I ascribe to in discussions.

But agreed, a nice discussion.
So an agreement to disagree seems best.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Hm, it seems I missed a lot of good discussion. By the way, what about mushrooms? It is not hard at all to raise mushroom farms in the cave, I reckon.

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Yeah! And the hallucinagenic ones, too! There was no balrog. The Dwarves were all just stoned!

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 508</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Unless I am mistaken, wouldn't the mushrooms need to grow on some kind of organic matter? Now that I've said (and thought about) that, perhaps they made use of rotting logs. Could a person live on just mushrooms? Let's assume that Dwarves require the same nutrients in the same amounts as humans do to make matters simpler, unless somebody can find it in the text.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[gamegie]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I don't think that anyone, including dwarves could survive on mushrooms only. But why not with a bit of meat?

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Aye, roasting occasional goblin trespasser This dusty topic proved to be very interesting, so I want to revive it a bit for the newcomers.

Per instance, what of the trade was with the west partners, whatever befell? The men of Anduin's vale were not thatcivilized after all, to have advanced agriculture. Dwarves had no difficulty to bring up goods for Bilbo's party from Erebor, so the distance of trade may be counted as a weak argument against West trade theorem. Also, there is 'great passage of dwarves' through the Shire mentioned somewhere. In the west there were dwarven mines in Blue Mountains, but what was the need of such a comings and goings to the East? It seems too me it was not so difficult to establish trade not only with Western dwarvish settlements, but even with the Shire itself (why not, if even Saruman was able to get pipe-weed there?)

looking up Tale of Years:
1601 - Shire established
1636 - The great Plague, Eriador is desolate, but Shire survives
1981 - Moria is left by dwarves

Between 1636 and 1981 there were all possibilities to trade to the West

More speculations, of course, but to the barrier, gentlemen!

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 609</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Aiii. The &quot;Bridge&quot; thread lives!

I forgot about the plague. All the more reason to trade to the East? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Imp]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 13</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Hehe...

Man I bet the flames radiating off the Balrog were making them mushroom eating Dwarves a lil psychotic <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

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Posts: 4</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/caractacus.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Gilthalion here...

What a collection of speculation and scholarship! (Far be it from me to say which is which! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

I lack the resources of many of you, but I have two cents I'd like to pitch into the abyss.

Even if the Dwarves lined the shafts with mithril, it would not catch enough sunshine to grow enough food to support the entire population of Moria. A reflective surface to the shafts would be needed to maximize sunlight, moonlight, etc. Regular silver might do, but anything except mithril would likely tarnish. Still, wealthy dwarves may do much. Failing this sort of engineering, the shafts would only give the direct sunlight needed for vegetative growth when the sun shone directly through them. This might happen a couple of hours a couple of days of the year. While reflective inner surfaces would be an expensive improvement (that they may have had, before stipped away by greedy orcs!), it would still not provide the necessary illumination for gardening on this scale.

As for fungal growth, indirect light is still needed. Mushrooms actually do NOT grow in absolute darkness. They also do not provide all of the nutrition needed. (Unless Aule crafted them with different nutritional needs. They certainly seemed to relish everything in Bilbo's pantry!)

As someone mentioned, even mushrooms require a growth medium (rotten logs for instance). This would still necessitate massive deliveries of materials.

What was the population of Moria?

For the sake of this exercise, let's assume 100,000.

Each healthy Dwarf (excluding the inevitable Bombur) would need a good 2,500 calories or so.

Let's also say this is a generous 4 lbs of food stuffs. (We'll leave water aside.) Let's also say that each Dwarf required something like 4 pints of beer/wine/mead/ale each day.

That is a total of about 8 lbs of food and drink at, say, 1/2 cubic foot of volume.

That means that 800,000 lbs, or 400 tons of food delivered each day for every 100,000 dwarves. (One assumes a buffering inventory is kept and rotated on a first-in-first-out basis.) This would occupy a volume of about 50,000 cubic feet. It could be piled in a space 10' high by 30' wide by 166 2/3' long. Thirty such rooms would provide food and drink for a month without rationing.

Let us assume a standard cargo container (wagon load) of 5' wide by 10' long by 2' deep. That is 100 cubic feet for each 1600 pound cargo. (One could easily double that, but let's not strain the capacity of the dwarvish wagons.)

That is 500 wagonloads daily.

Assume that shipments are normally received 24/7.

If only one wagon could be carted across at a time, then a wagonload of goods would have to cross the abyss every 2 minutes 52.8 seconds. (If my math is correct! Double the volume of each wagonload and you can make that 250 wagons at 5 minute 45.6 second intervals.)

If there are more or less dwarves, the calculation's change.

It might have happened something like this...




Gar drove his cart along slowly, in line with the others. This was his second and final shipment of the day, when delivered, he looked forward to heading to the hall with the rest of the crew for some of the very beer he had been hauling.

Slowly, but at a steady clip, each wagon disappeared into the great eastern entranceway of Moria. The great wheels of the wagon had a large diameter which made the job of the horses difficult, but not impossible, as each sturdy team pulled a ton of wagon, dwarf, and cargo up the broad flat steps of the entrance.

Once inside, his dwarven eyes quickly adjusted to the cool darkness. There were only five wagons ahead of him, then he could turn the cart over to the night driver, who would change the horses and take over until Gar resumed his route the next morning.

Less than a quarter of an hour passed and his cart was at the abyss. If the Bridge of Khazadum had been wider, he could have driven the wagon across.

Back in his grandfather's day (as his grandfather never wearied of telling him) a team of dwarves were on hand to offload each wagon, quick as a wink, and pass the goods along hand to hand across the bridge. A steady stream of goods was thus moved by hand as fast as could be. Occasionally, a hand would slip, and the goods would fall, never to be recovered. The dwarves who dropped the goods would find the cost docked from their pay.

This was the lot of the least skilled dwarves, and every young dwarf also had to take a turn each day during the apprenticeship.

Old Nar thought that system best, and safest.

Gar preferred the new system. There were still work crews on either side of the abyss, but now, goods were borne across far more quickly, with little loss.

He pulled his wagon up to the edge of the abyss. Like clockwork, the dwarves across the way had finished offloading the last cart and had swung the platform across for his. It clicked into place. He backed his cart onto the platform, unhitched his team with a pull of the strong pin that held the harness to the cart, and the ferry crew swung the platform and cart across so that it locked into place on the other side. The cart was pulled off and unloaded. The previous cart was pushed onto the platform and sent back across.

Suddenly, horns rang out!

Orcs were approaching in force up the Dimrill Dale!

Gar grabbed his axe and ran to the great entrance way.

Behind him, other dwarves were running to their posts, crossing by both bridge and the dizzying ride across the swinging ferry.

Then, when all were in place, a call sounded and with a great rattling sound, the chains that held the ferry platform from high above were released and it went crashing into the bottomless chasm.

Moria would be safe. Gar gripped his axe and waited to greet any attackers who made it past the arrows of the Dwarves...

If you can bring in more than one cart at a time, and have more than one platform, this becomes even easier. Go to the shipyard of any port city (during any period of history!) and you'll see this sort of thing going on. Harder work in ancient or even medieval or early modern times, but it's nothing new to us, and I'm sure the Dwarves could cope.

I realize that the Dwarves might well have made use of the surrounding Men to handle cartage (not to mention care of the horses or oxen or mules), preferring to contract out such work, but the principles would remain the same.


P.S. For any who are interested, check out my recording of THE BRIDGE OF KHAZADUM in RealAudio at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgard...ilthalion.htmlGilthalion's Grand Adventures</a>

<hr> <center><font size=1>Not much at all to see at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Website</a></center></p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 315</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Whoa!

Scary math! I suppose Tolkien was a lore-master, not a mathematician though. When he figured out how impossible it was to feed everyone he probably made up his mind that Moria was to be deserted. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Although the same could be said for Erebor. How are you suppose to support a similar sized (alliteration <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> ) dwarven community by wheeling wagon-loads of food through a front gate that has a river running out from it? I think. Or I have my ME Geo wrong.

For me it is easier to imagine massive dwarven greenhouses on the top of Caradhras where they grow millions of mushrooms. The Mountain Mushroom Farms. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 569</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

They ate the rocks and dirt that they quarried. They were made from stone and as the saying goes, you are what you eat.

But seriously, I think it would be very possible for them to survive.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 437</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

Whoa! Blast from the past! And you thought I was a math major, BW. If Gil's calculations are correct, then the East Gate could easily accomodate dwarvish traffic requirements (I think his estimation of a population of one hundred thousand may be overly generous, and if I'm not mistaken his calculations assume that the entire dwarvish food supply is provided by trade through the East Gate).

In the battle between the Orcs led by Azog and the Dwarves before the East Gate, the Orc force is overcome and virtually destroyed. One version in HoME XII puts the number of Orcish dead at ten thousand (see Durin's Folk). If we can deem this number to be at least roughly accurate, we can make several deductions from it:

1) The Orcs had more than a simple garrison force at Moria.

2) Even if we assume that ten thousand dead Orcs represents only a third of Azog's force, then that means the combined host of the Dwarves was less than that number (thirty thousand), since the account of the Battle of Azanulbizar in Appendix A says that at the start of the fight, the Orcs outnumbered the Dwarves.

</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 6</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/caractacus.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

Gilthalion here again. (How I hate this new EZBOARD!)

I should think that there were many more Dwarves in Moria during its zenith.

If the East Gate and chambers and passages were the first built, then the numbers would be smaller. As the population grew, the logistical demands increased. Obviously, when Hollin was active, there was trade through the West Gate as well.

There would always be a tremendous flow of traffic in and out of Moria, or any other non-self-sufficient Dwarven community. I tend to think that the logistical demands would be child's play to them. As the math demonstrates, even one ferry with one cart could handle the needs of 100,000 dwarves. Add as many ferries, collapsable bridges, etc. as you need over the abyss, and the job is even easier.

Recall Thorin &amp; Co. collapsing a wall when joining the Battle of the Five Armies. Semipermanent bridges, strong until disposed of, would be the ticket, though the ferry could be used in a pinch, say, after a battle and the collapse of the bridges.

I can see a stone arch bridge, laid without morter, strong as strong, but able to fall all at once down the abyss.

In fact, if your enemy makes it through the gate and is actually crossing over your collapsible bridge, that might not be a bad time to move the lever which releases the weight that pulls the chains that pull the pins that retain the anchor bolts that hold the keystone in the center of the arch of the bridge. This would be very bad for a vangard of pillaging orcs...

Or for the Dwarf who does this by mistake. A little more serious than pulling the fire alarm.

&quot;Dwarven bridges falling down...&quot;

And of course, in the fall of Moria, such events may have occurred. Whatever construction was employed, it was cast into the ravine in the last despair....hence, leaving only the narrow bridge of old.

<hr> <center><font size=1>Not much at all to see at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Website</a></center></p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 612</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

Hmmm. Could we at last be reaching toward a consensus that at a minimum the Bridge was inadequate and that heavy traffic occurred in the East? This is a step in the right direction.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 442</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

During its zenith, Khazad-dûm was also trading heavily to the West. When Sauron conquered Eregion, the doors of Moria were shut and its people began to &quot;dwindle&quot;, presumably due in large part to starvation. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.<hr></blockquote>You may be right, Gil, but somehow I've always pictured ME as being fairly sparsely populated. In most battles where figures are given, the combatants seem to number in the thousands. For instance, Théoden says that he could have mustered ten thousand if he had decided to leave his strongholds all unguarded; as it was, he only brought six thousand. When Turgon brings his host from Gondolin to the Nirnaeth, they number only ten thousand. Dain apparently only brings about five hundred dwarves to the Battle of Five Armies.

We've either grossly underestimated dwarvish storage capacity and/or their ability to produce their own food, or overestimated their food requirements and/or their population if the constant flow of trade you theorize could be cut off for years and still leave ANY dwarves alive inside the mines by the time they woke up the cranky Balrog. The Hobbit mentions that the Dwarves of Dain's Iron Hills army could have withstood a siege for weeks with only the food that they had packed with them on their backs.

One has to question Azog's tactics. Why not hole up inside the mountain and wait for the Dwarvish host to get tired and go away? Perhaps because the Orcs, unlike the pragmatic and industrious Dwarves, hadn't stockpiled food and cultivated some sources of their own.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/15/01 11:08:21 am

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 34</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

I think Moria at max was a truly great population. That's why I tossed out the 100,000 figure, since that was larger than any figure I knew of from the literature.

Surely, after the plagues and wars, populations would have fallen.

But, with great effort and sacrifice, I think I have demonstrated that tens of thousands of Dwarves could have long (decades) held out with only the East Gate for provisioning. The above mentioned figures can be greatly reduced if rationing is imposed, or greater loads employed. Or both.

While not a definitive determination, the logistics are not beyond the Dwarves capacity, even if there were no collapsible bridges or ferries across the chasm.

Much better to have a lot of Hollin Elves at hand to grow food for you on the other side of the mountains. But, a dwarf must make do.

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 446</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But, with great effort and sacrifice, I think I have demonstrated that tens of thousands of Dwarves could have long (decades) held out with only the East Gate for provisioning.<hr></blockquote>I thought at first you were talking about your own great effort and sacrifice in coming up with those calculations! <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

I'll just point out, too, that Sauron's forces invaded Eriador in 1695 and laid waste to Eregion in 1697, but then Sauron was driven out of Eriador in 1701. That means the West Gate only had to be closed for as little as four years and a maximum of six years. After that, the dwarves could have resumed whatever trade they could muster and/or farmed crops of their own in Eriador.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/15/01 12:36:00 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I'll just point out, too, that Sauron's forces invaded Eriador in 1695 and laid waste to Eregion in 1697, but then Sauron was driven out of Eriador in 1701. That means the West Gate only had to be closed for as little as four years and a maximum of six years. After that, the dwarves could have resumed whatever trade they could muster and/or farmed crops of their own in Eriador.

*thumbs up

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 618</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

Now we're going backwards, see quotes and argument from October 24-26, 2000 regarding whether Dwarves grew their own crops/tended animals willingly (they did not). I also came across a post by Sir Underhill conceding that the Dwarves traded to the East, at least after Eregion was laid waste. In my profession, this is known as either a &quot;prior inconsistent statement&quot; or an &quot;admission&quot;. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Also, how did the Orcs (and Gollum) get out of Moria on the East side of the mountains to pursue the company after the Bridge was destroyed, considering the lack of Gilthalion's proposed extension bridge.

This thread began with the simple observation that the single-file bridge that Gandalf destroyed was incompatible with the concept of a significant underground kingdom. Advocates have dredged up both logic-based and text-based arguments regarding the existence of additional entrances to Moria on the East side. To these I add one more. The dwarves were smart engineers and builders. They would not put themselves in a position where they would be trapped inside by a simple landslide blocking a single exit. Could they dig themselves out? Yes, in time. But they would not do that. Even Erebor had various entrances besides the main gate and the secret exit.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 448</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> from October 24-26, 2000 regarding whether Dwarves grew their own crops/tended animals willingly <hr></blockquote>Not willingly, but what about in times of need? Also in the course of those arguments Saulotus pointed out that the Men of the Alliance to the east &quot;were diminished and scattered, and those that lingered on in their old regions were impoverished, and lived mostly in caves or in the borders of the Forest.&quot; This doesn't sound like the basis for a trading partner that would be sending large volumes of foodstuffs to the East Gate. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I also came across a post by Sir Underhill conceding that the Dwarves traded to the East, at least after Eregion was laid waste. In my profession, this is known as either a &quot;prior inconsistent statement&quot; or an &quot;admission&quot;. <hr></blockquote>Trying to catch me with your lawyer tricks, eh? &quot;You can't handle the truth!&quot; <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> If we could have the court reporter read back from the record, you'd see that I conceded that the Dwarves may have traded to the east, but I didn't say the traded exclusively to the east, nor that this was their sole source of food. Plus, now that I have a few more resources to draw from, I can make more informed arguments. And anyway, as Walt Whitman said, &quot;Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes).&quot; <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Advocates have dredged up both logic-based and text-based arguments regarding the existence of additional entrances to Moria on the East side. <hr></blockquote>I haven't seen any text-based support of additional entrances/exits. Indeed, the bulk of the textual evidence seems to support a single gate theory.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/15/01 3:17:01 pm